Then cycle more/harder/more. :)

Working on it. I've seen what powercranks can do and want some.

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-All You Haters Suck My Balls-

What are these powercranks you speak of???

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Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)

Then you are the first. There is no verifiable data showing any improvements to power output using PCs. The only person who was doing a long-term study with them (and who had several years of power data to compare) got injured using PCs and gave them up. In the months that he did use them he showed no power gains from his previous outputs.

Rik

Hater.

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-All You Haters Suck My Balls-

I'm willing to believe they work. But I'm guessing they are a lot like Total Immersion for a swimmer. ie. they help a novice who has mechanical flaws, but for an accomplished athlete they won't produce improvements.
I admit I have no first-hand experience and I'm friendly to the idea of Power Cranks and am absolutely not a Frank hater.

You got me there. I do hate false marketing claims. You are welcome to lap them up though should you so desire.

Rik

You may be referring to me (and the data at james-p-smith.blogspot.com). For the record, I have not given them up. I went off them for a few weeks to get healed, and much to Frank's chagrin I'm using them less than previously. Also for the record, I never said PCs gave me my injury - it could have been PCs, the pedals I have to use with them, or a combination of the two. But yes, I have not seen any significant power increases compared to my past historical bests. At most 1-5 W, which is within the error tolerance of my Powertap. I think I would go out on a limb and say they got me to in "VO2 condition" quickly (i.e., riding comfortably in level 5) compared to my usual adaptation time with regular cranks. I'll also say I won't be using them for the next 2 weeks - have to go to Italy and the bastards at Lufthansa want to charge $500 roundtrip for the bike.

It's getting hot and humid again in south Texas, so I expect to do more zone 2/3 rides rather than race intensity rides, and as such my PC time will increase. I've got them until July, so hopefully I can rack up another 100 or so hours on them (and consequently 300 hours in 12 months) and see if I get the numbers to budge or not.

Ok so they have increased your leg strength and your ability to stay in a higher HR zone longer? Well that is an improvement isn't it?

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-All You Haters Suck My Balls-

All I'll say about PCs is this: They smoke the dog crap out of me to such and extent that riding normally feels like a vacation.

And you deduced this how?

Re-read - "I think I would go out on a limb and say they got me to in "VO2 condition" quickly (i.e., riding comfortably in level 5) compared to my usual adaptation time with regular cranks."

Just saying that instead of say X weeks to get me to my VO2 adaptation phase, PCs got me there in gamma*X weeks, gamma < 1. The end point was the same, but the time constant was slightly less.

Ok I misread. So you're saying the PC had zero net benefit for you, and didn't make you physically stronger or improve your cycling (power output, form, or any other aspect) at all?

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-All You Haters Suck My Balls-

That's not what I am saying. That is what the data I've collected over the last 9 or so months is saying. All I care about are 2 curves: average power versus duration and normalized power versus duration. I collect the data and report the data. The data does the talking. I don't see what form or "any other aspect" has to do with things when ultimately it's power to the pedals (actually to the hub in my case!) that counts.

I was trying to be obtuse so as to not get into the details, but yes, I was referring to you. I'm glad you are healed - last I read you had given up the PCs but I hadn't checked your blog in a while.

I hope you are able to get your power up this season. VO2max condition is a funny thing - I've broken my previous records this year on extremely minimal training.

Rik

Rik,

You really slay me. You pick and choose your "facts" to satisfy your biases.

1. Tigermilk was not injured as a result of PC usage. If the PC's are in any way implicated it would appear it is because of the pedals he has on the PC bike. either way, this has resolved and he has returned to PC action. It is a shame you have stopped reading his blog once you thought the outcome satisfied your needs.

2. Tigermilk has not used the cranks in his little trial as I asked him to. He has only used them about 60% of the time instead of the 90+ percent I asked. Despite this he is showing about 5% power improvements over last year. While he has not yet set overall personal bests by much he has pretty much equalled them and he still has 2 more moths to go on the experiment.

3. Just because you have no personal experience watching people improve on the cranks does not mean that all others share your experience. Our claims are for what the "typical" rider would see, not for what every rider should see. some will see more, some will see less. Tigermilk told me he would be excited to see just a 5% improvement. He has already seen that from last year and he has some time to go regarding his all time records.

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

When pedaling, can you increase power output to the chain without increasing your muscular power input to the pedals. ?

He is not the first. I have been using Power Cranks since Jan 2005 on a Taxc excel turbo trainer that i train on approximately four times a week for 45 mins each time in addition to 200km a week on the road. I am a 40-44 FOP AG and devoting the same training time with power cranks vs normal cranks i experienced quite a significant improvment.
Prior to Power Cranks my 40km TT time was just over 59mins and after 8 months this had improved to sub 58 mins. In March 2006 i did a 57.19 at the Commonwealth Games in Melbourne and at the 2007 ITU World Champs in Hamburg i had one of the fastest bike splits of all AG's. At Ironman UK 70.3 19th fastest bike split overall and am now sub 55 for the same 40km TT that i used to do in 59mins. I can be sure of the same training time as i have four kids - 12,10,6 &1 - and every minute of training time is very valuable to me!!!
I have no hesitation in putting a large amount of this improvment to Power Cranks - despite all of the abuse they get on ST - although to date i have not seen any improvement in my running.

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Chris Walker.
Gibraltar,
Europe

6 years ago, they did exactly the same thing to me. I have been using them contantly ever since. The regular cranks only go on for races.

How has your pedaling with regular cranks changed after 6 years of PC use.

What part of "I have not seen any significant power increases compared to my past historical bests. At most 1-5 W, which is within the error tolerance of my Powertap." don't you understand? In an earlier thread on this subject you showed a complete and utter inability to read the data that that Tigermilk had presented and a disturbing tendency to completely misinterpret his words. Don't embarrass yourself any further.

Rik

Rik

This is the kind of anecdotal "evidence" that Frank thrives on.

First, since you don't measure power, there is no evidence of an actual power increase since you have been using PCs. You are faster, but how much of this is due to equipment and body positioning? I am several minutes faster on the same 10-mile TT course on the same power output. Faster tires, faster equipment and better body positioning.

Second, has your training regime (not total training time) changed at all? I spend less time on the bike than I used to (because I am swimming and biking more) and yet I just set a personal best for my VO2max interval power. Different training focus.

I'm a 40-44 AGer too. I had the 16th fastest AG bike split at the 2008 Vineman 70.3. On way less training time than you - averaging less than 80 miles/week. I don't have anything to sell you though.

Rik

So is there going to be a contest?

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-All You Haters Suck My Balls-

FYI, yearly state champ. 40k results, all prior to PC use

2003 or 2004 - 40k TT on rolling chip seal on a road bike with clip ons and wheel cover - 1:16 or so, affect by the August heat in Texas
2005 - 1:01:30 on my old Hooker setup
2006 - 1:00:10 on a road bike converted to TT setup to open my hip angle up
2007 - 56:50 on a new TT setup
2008 - 58:06 on the same setup as 2007, power down to heat and knowing (well, assuming) I had my age group won

2005-2008 were all on the same course and same time of year.

I did not have power during the 40k's from 2005-2008 and can only go based on perceived effort and what my seasonal power was going into those events. My power was down a little in 2008 (10-15 W) compared to 2007.

A 2 minute swing can be any number of things. The biggest factors are terrain and environmental conditions (temperature, pressure, humidity, wind speed and direction). Ditto rik's comments about equipment.

Your time in a 40k isn't the best indicator of your training/equipment - the best indicator is where you finished. The indicator of whether the improvement was due to external factors (equipment, weather) or internal factors (training) can ONLY be determined by implementing a power meter. A stopwatch won't cut it for those longer events...

You (gibralter, not rik) have to distinguish between objectively and subjectively analyzing the data.

Has the same type of test that Tigermilk is doing been done on a regular age grouper (weaker cyclist)? Is there any reason to believe that someone starting from a weaker beginning may see bigger gains? I don't mean to be a rube, but I dont train with power right now so I'm a having a hard time following some of this.

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-All You Haters Suck My Balls-