Dealing with a Tri Cheat

Nov 14, 19 13:16

Post #1 of 35 (5499 views)

So, this is weighing on me a bit. The question will be: How would you handle a course-cutter in a triathlon?

The cheater in question was ahead of me going into the run at Miami Man. I passed him late in the run and he very well could have identified my age. I was wearing the age tattoo. He was not.*

After I passed him he cut a corner significantly.** I caught up and passed him again. He tailed me closely and then about a quarter mile from the finish he cut a turn-around that was almost 180 degrees.*** I went around the corner and saw that he had bombed through trees and bushes and was now ahead of me. After cutting that corner he put in a little burst. I yelled at him, loudly, "Did you cut every G-d d@mn corner out here?" I didn't catch him and crossed the line a few seconds back. He collapsed in a heap and I limped by, disgusted, to join friends and tend to myself.

I found soon after finishing that he was hit with a drafting penalty and so I beat him by nearly four minutes. That felt just. I looked at race photos to verify who he is. That wasn't challenging at all given that we were in the same age and finished so closely... and he had a nice orange trisuit.

So...

What would you have done?
Chewed his @ss on the spot?
Told the race officials?
Walk away and deal with your own life?
Post his name and links to his race photos on Slowtwitch? (No, I don't intent to do that).

*We have other threads on whether wearing an age tattoo is a stupid thing to do or "abiding by the rules." I have always worn the tattoos as we are asked to do. I'm reconsidering that decision. I gave him information that I did not receive in return.

*He cut the corner where we were on the grass and you pass a grove of trees on your left, then turn left and go down the trail. It's about mile 11-12 on the second loop. He literally bombed through the middle of that grove of trees. It was a BIG cut.

**The 180-degree turn around brings you around to have the lake on your right side as you follow the path for the last quarter mile. They probably should have had a volunteer there. He went right through the trees.

Last edited by: DieselPete: Nov 14, 19 13:35

Re: Dealing with a Tri Cheat [DieselPete] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 13:19

Post #2 of 35 (5484 views)

Worry about you.

Rhymenocerus wrote:

I think everyone should consult ST before they do anything.

Re: Dealing with a Tri Cheat [DieselPete] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 13:30

Post #3 of 35 (5439 views)

I did a local Olympic this year and finished 4th overall in the initial results. I started near the front, and I thought I had eyes on the two people ahead of me, so the #3 guy was a total mystery. I saw the detail results after I got home, and it was obvious that the #3 guy had cut one of the bike loops. So, I notified the RD, and he investigated and changed the results.

In your case, I would report him to the RD and let the RD deal with it.

Re: Dealing with a Tri Cheat [DieselPete] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 13:36

Post #4 of 35 (5396 views)

I always hate when the contrarians on here say things like “worry about you.”

This guy is a straight-up cheater. No doubt, he will continue to cheat other people in other races. You are helping those people if you make him face consequences. You can imagine this guy would happily take an award, slot or some other recognition from a better athlete.

I don’t know what the procedures under USAT rules are for filing a protest. The course cutting I have seen has been limited to people cutting swim buoys. It’s not easy to call one of them out for that.

Cutting on the run course should be pretty easy to verify if timing mats are set properly or if GPS watches are in use.

You should have gone to the head official.

Re: Dealing with a Tri Cheat [DieselPete] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 13:36

Post #5 of 35 (5391 views)

The appropriate thing to do would have been to stand over him at the finish and say "I guess it's a good thing you cut all those corners on the course, if you hadn't you'd have collapsed a couple hundred meters before the finish".

Re: Dealing with a Tri Cheat [DieselPete] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 13:58

Post #6 of 35 (5300 views)

I wouldn't waste any more brain energy on it. It's sad, unfortunate, but bad people happen, and in our AG division where there's only bragging rights at stake, the onus is on you to let stuff like this go and focus on your own performance for the day.

And yes, before everyone starts screaming bloody murder, I've lost podium spots due to either inadvertent or advertent course cutting. Got bumped off 3rd by someone who ran an amazing 31 split in an Oly (the OA winner in near 2-flat ran like a 37) - I assumed it was an elite AG runner dabbling in tri who beat me, but the next year I looked him up on Athlinks, and turns out he's closer to a 48min Oly runner. I give him the benefit of the doubt - if he was intentionally course cutting, he did a spectacularly bad job of it! Also has happened 2 other times to me where I got bumped off by a likely course cut or misdirection.

It does help to also grade your performances in tris by USAT score, which normalizes for course difficulty, and also minimizes the impact of the rare cheaters or inadvertent course cutters.

Last edited by: lightheir: Nov 14, 19 14:09

Re: Dealing with a Tri Cheat [DieselPete] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 14:19

Post #7 of 35 (5209 views)

As you can see, everyone has their own agendas on this, and how much shit they are willing to eat to just let it go. I was in your exact spot many years ago, fighting in the 55+ age category at a local race. Lots of really fast guys in the AG around here, and we all know each other pretty much. I was leading the race, and a guy who I had been very friendly with over the years, and we had come up the same ranks since the late 70's, was cutting the run course behind me. I saw him at the run turnaround, yelled at him, but he continued on running straight in the street, while the run course was on a twisty sidewalk.

Anyway he passes me and another guy fighting it out for the win in the last 1/2 mile, all of us come in within like 15 seconds of each other. As you could imagine, I was livid. He came over after the race to shake my hand and congratulate me, like we had always done after races, and I refused and called him a f(&^ing cheater. He just turned around and walked away, with tail firmly between his legs. I went straight to the race director and told him, had witnesses to back it up, figured I was good, but in the end, nothing done. One thing you have to understand, RD's hate this stuff, not because it happens so much, because it makes extra work for them at a very busy time in the event. It is a nuisance that is more easily ignored, than dealt with. So that was that.

But I did do a race report here, and I named him. He may have got away with it at the actual race, but all the guys in the AG knew what he did, so why not everyone else here too. Shine a light on the cheaters, especially if given the chance to come clean, and they dont take it. And like your cheater, it came to light that my guy also drafts in every race he can get a lift, even to the point of enlisting dudes to join him and get the pace line going.. So there is my answer to your question, do with it what you will...

Re: Dealing with a Tri Cheat [DieselPete] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 14:20

Post #8 of 35 (5201 views)

Collapse in a heap on top of him.

.

Once, I was fast. But I got over it.

Re: Dealing with a Tri Cheat [DieselPete] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 14:21

Post #9 of 35 (5197 views)

I would probably alert the RD or officials. It doesn't take much energy to say: "Hey, I witnessed bib number 123 cut the course multiple times."

Cant understand how the general consensus on this forum is that drafting on the bike makes you a bad human being, but you shouldn't report someone cutting the run course to race officials or race director. Odd...

Re: Dealing with a Tri Cheat [DieselPete] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 14:21

Post #10 of 35 (5196 views)

Absolutely all our jobs to report cheaters. Surely they will do it again.

Go to the officials or RD ASAP at the finish.

Re: Dealing with a Tri Cheat [DieselPete] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 14:23

Post #11 of 35 (5186 views)

I would have berated him on the spot and tell the race director. However, without proof it is your word against his if he doesn't admit it.

Re: Dealing with a Tri Cheat [DieselPete] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 14:29

Post #12 of 35 (5166 views)

Personally I'd have let the chief official know. A) you'd feel better and B) there is a record so if there are issues in the future he's someone they've heard about problems with before.

Easy enough to find out who you were talking about (you are even in the background of his finisher's pics). I can't really understand what he felt was worth cheating over; there's no podium, KQ, etc. at stake.

The really severe route is to write a letter to his sponsor (how does a 5:30HIM guy have a sponsor????). If you are going to wear a logo, you have a responsibility to positively support the brand you are representing.

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

Re: Dealing with a Tri Cheat [DieselPete] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 14:32

Post #13 of 35 (5154 views)

What would you have done?
Chewed his @ss on the spot? Probably
Told the race officials? Probably
Walk away and deal with your own life? Maybe
Post his name and links to his race photos on Slowtwitch? (No, I don't intent to do that) Doubtful

The problem with the “worry about you” advice is that this guy also cheated others in the race. You finished ahead of him (although still not as far as you technically would have had he not cheated). But, he also cheated every competitor out there who you arguably now owe a duty to based on the knowledge you possess.

Re: Dealing with a Tri Cheat [Waingro] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 14:43

Post #14 of 35 (5108 views)

Waingro wrote:

I always hate when the contrarians on here say things like “worry about you.”
.

I agree, it’s an odd mentality and you have to think to what point would a person like that ignore bad shit strangers do. Walk past a fight, let dicks park in disabled spots, do nothing to stop a shoplifter... you don’t have to be Dirty Harry, but standing by with your thumb up your arse while people cheat, steal and do bad shit is shit.

Re: Dealing with a Tri Cheat [DieselPete] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 14:51

Post #15 of 35 (5079 views)

Cheaters... I'm coming to the conclusions these people are either raised by criminals or they suffer from mental illness. Because really, how can you be so morally corrupt and live with yourself?

A. I would absolutely tell the RD. I would put it in writing via an email.

B. I'd check the race results and see if the Run mile splits point out the cheating. Maybe they were so bold as to post to Strava?

C. I'd email Derek Murphy at Marathon Investigation. If this athlete cheated in this race, likely he's cheated in other races and perhaps there's proof to be found in prior races.

To the folks who say, worry about yourself. And who cares? YOU. YOU SHOULD CARE!! We pay a Race Fee! The events are Timed. Athletes are Ranked. If you "don't care" then don't sign up for a Race. Just train on your own. Do group activities. Sign up for Fat A$$ events that are people just doing an event for fun where there is No Race Fee, No Timing, No Ranking, no Governing Body.

The fundamental principles of any Race Organization should be Safety for Athletes First, Athletes Having Fun, and making sure Athletes Follow the Damn Rules!! Whatever the Rules may be. If you knowingly break the rules and cheat, you're A CHEATER!! A morally corrupt and spiritually shallow human being who suffers from an inferiority complex and needs mental health assistance. If you confess that you're a cheater, and make amends and seek help, the racing community will forgive you.

Last edited by: BT_DreamChaser: Nov 14, 19 14:52

Re: Dealing with a Tri Cheat [iamuwere] [ In reply to ]

SallyShortyPnts

Nov 14, 19 16:13

Post #16 of 35 (4933 views)

iamuwere wrote:

Absolutely all our jobs to report cheaters. Surely they will do it again.

Go to the officials or RD ASAP at the finish.

^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^

Before this guy ends up being fodder for Marathon Investigation, turn him in so that his cheater profile can be recognized the next time he does it again. And yes, there will be a next time.

DFL > DNF > DNS

Re: Dealing with a Tri Cheat [monty] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 16:26

Post #17 of 35 (4879 views)

monty wrote:

As you can see, everyone has their own agendas on this, and how much shit they are willing to eat to just let it go. I was in your exact spot many years ago, fighting in the 55+ age category at a local race. Lots of really fast guys in the AG around here, and we all know each other pretty much. I was leading the race, and a guy who I had been very friendly with over the years, and we had come up the same ranks since the late 70's, was cutting the run course behind me. I saw him at the run turnaround, yelled at him, but he continued on running straight in the street, while the run course was on a twisty sidewalk.

Anyway he passes me and another guy fighting it out for the win in the last 1/2 mile, all of us come in within like 15 seconds of each other. As you could imagine, I was livid. He came over after the race to shake my hand and congratulate me, like we had always done after races, and I refused and called him a f(&^ing cheater. He just turned around and walked away, with tail firmly between his legs. I went straight to the race director and told him, had witnesses to back it up, figured I was good, but in the end, nothing done. One thing you have to understand, RD's hate this stuff, not because it happens so much, because it makes extra work for them at a very busy time in the event. It is a nuisance that is more easily ignored, than dealt with. So that was that.

But I did do a race report here, and I named him. He may have got away with it at the actual race, but all the guys in the AG knew what he did, so why not everyone else here too. Shine a light on the cheaters, especially if given the chance to come clean, and they dont take it. And like your cheater, it came to light that my guy also drafts in every race he can get a lift, even to the point of enlisting dudes to join him and get the pace line going.. So there is my answer to your question, do with it what you will...

I wasn't there but it sounds like it's possible that it may have been less clear whether the road was legal to run on? How much time did the road save anyway compared to the sidewalk?

I see this a lot in races, where the run course cones are setup on a sidewalk but you can run in the road and possibly save a few seconds here and there by going down the middle rather than staying to the curving side.

If it was a big difference though, def cheating!

Re: Dealing with a Tri Cheat [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 16:31

Post #18 of 35 (4865 views)

Yes, besides being told that you must run on the sidewalk, it was 70% of the run course. The cones where there, the aid stations was there, the street was open to car traffic, and he was the "only" guy I saw running on it. Then I yelled at him to get off the street, and he heard me, and continued to run there. It probably made 30 to 40 seconds difference, double the gap between 1st and 3rd at the end of the race. There was no mistake, and he certainly was somewhat embarrassed when he got ignored and called out after the race. I think he was used to getting away with it so often, it just became a part of his mindset, to do whatever he could to gain advantage..

Re: Dealing with a Tri Cheat [SallyShortyPnts] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 16:34

Post #19 of 35 (4855 views)

To Monty’s point about RDs hating this stuff, I can appreciate that.

The people that should be notified are the USAT officials walking around in their black and white shirts. We all pay our annual dues to pay for these people to officiate these events (at least I assume their expenses are paid, etc.). I see them on the bike course all the time, but barely see any evidence of them in the swim and run legs. By the time the biking is done, they should have plenty of time to adjudicate stuff like this. Leave it out of the RD’s hands.

Re: Dealing with a Tri Cheat [zedzded] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 16:39

Post #20 of 35 (4836 views)

zedzded wrote:

Waingro wrote:

I always hate when the contrarians on here say things like “worry about you.”
.

I agree, it’s an odd mentality and you have to think to what point would a person like that ignore bad shit strangers do. Walk past a fight, let dicks park in disabled spots, do nothing to stop a shoplifter... you don’t have to be Dirty Harry, but standing by with your thumb up your arse while people cheat, steal and do bad shit is shit.

It's not an odd mentality.

It's REALITY.

Seriously, what does all your complaining, worrying, anger and frustration about such a triathlon cheater get you? So you report the guy. 9/10 NOTHING happens because it's your word vs his/hers unless there is camera evidence or really egregious cheating going on. Even if there IS corroborated cheating, if the time saved isn't that big, 9/10 the RD doesn't do squat about it.

Gotta keep things in perspective, and save your energy and anger for the moments in life where it matters a lot and you can make a real difference, or if there is real hazard involved. There are countless MUCH more consequential things to complain and make a big fuss over than AG triathlon, at least to me, and I take my results super seriously. I just don't let other bad behavior have as much impact whenever possible, which means judging myself by USAT scores rather than my relative placement for the day, and realizing that AG wins are nice but for me more a matter of who shows up than my performance for the day.

An RD 3 years ago forgot to include same-day 10k registrants in the final results of his race I ran where I took 2nd overall, which should have gotten me a $50 running store gift certificate (I know, not much money but I'm slow enough that ANY prize is sweet to me!) I even told his assistants on the podium when he gave the award away that he made a mistake, and I was 2nd overall, and he said he'd have to look into it after all the awards were given out. Needless to say, I didn't get anything that day, but the RD apologized for his mistake and fixed the online race results - again, bigger fish to fry than making a fuss, even if real money was involved in this screwup.

Re: Dealing with a Tri Cheat [hblake] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 16:52

Post #21 of 35 (4782 views)

hblake wrote:

Collapse in a heap on top of him.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

Last edited by: gary p: Nov 14, 19 16:56

Re: Dealing with a Tri Cheat [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 17:09

Post #22 of 35 (4725 views)

lightheir wrote:

zedzded wrote:

Waingro wrote:

I always hate when the contrarians on here say things like “worry about you.”
.

I agree, it’s an odd mentality and you have to think to what point would a person like that ignore bad shit strangers do. Walk past a fight, let dicks park in disabled spots, do nothing to stop a shoplifter... you don’t have to be Dirty Harry, but standing by with your thumb up your arse while people cheat, steal and do bad shit is shit.

It's not an odd mentality.

It's REALITY.

Seriously, what does all your complaining, worrying, anger and frustration about such a triathlon cheater get you? So you report the guy. 9/10 NOTHING happens because it's your word vs his/hers unless there is camera evidence or really egregious cheating going on. Even if there IS corroborated cheating, if the time saved isn't that big, 9/10 the RD doesn't do squat about it.

Gotta keep things in perspective, and save your energy and anger for the moments in life where it matters a lot and you can make a real difference, or if there is real hazard involved. There are countless MUCH more consequential things to complain and make a big fuss over than AG triathlon, at least to me, and I take my results super seriously. I just don't let other bad behavior have as much impact whenever possible, which means judging myself by USAT scores rather than my relative placement for the day, and realizing that AG wins are nice but for me more a matter of who shows up than my performance for the day.

An RD 3 years ago forgot to include same-day 10k registrants in the final results of his race I ran where I took 2nd overall, which should have gotten me a $50 running store gift certificate (I know, not much money but I'm slow enough that ANY prize is sweet to me!) I even told his assistants on the podium when he gave the award away that he made a mistake, and I was 2nd overall, and he said he'd have to look into it after all the awards were given out. Needless to say, I didn't get anything that day, but the RD apologized for his mistake and fixed the online race results - again, bigger fish to fry than making a fuss, even if real money was involved in this screwup.

Yep and especially these days where the tables get so easily reversed and you end up being the target of abuse for daring to stick up for what you believe in or for someone who is getting shafted.Happens all too often these days so most of the time it is best just to shake your head and walk away.

Re: Dealing with a Tri Cheat [DieselPete] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 17:25

Post #23 of 35 (4667 views)

The drafting penalty says a lot about this guy.

- i would report it to officials immediately. Be calm, factual, and move on.
- i would chat with the competitor, and in a calm manner advise him of the above, and that i would report it again if observed in a future race.
- i would work to not emotionally involve myself in the situation (tough).

Re: Dealing with a Tri Cheat [DieselPete] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 17:25

Post #24 of 35 (4663 views)

I'd report him also and would verbally harass him at the finish line so loudly that it would cause everyone to watch. Everyone would know by his reaction at the finish line that he was a POS.

GoPro chest mount?

Also, I would be recording on Strava to show not only that I followed the course, but would later be able to edit the flyby video to show where he cut it. Any potential watchers on the course would at least have the chance to come forward that they witnessed it.

I also hate cheaters so much that if I were to plan the route, I would set up cutbacks with the timing mat right at the end, and quite possibly have a friend or two video recording potential cutoff points, or setting up my own camera there.

I'm stupid like that.

The more people I encounter the more I love my cats.

Re: Dealing with a Tri Cheat [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 17:48

Post #25 of 35 (4598 views)

lightheir wrote:

zedzded wrote:

Waingro wrote:

I always hate when the contrarians on here say things like “worry about you.”
.

I agree, it’s an odd mentality and you have to think to what point would a person like that ignore bad shit strangers do. Walk past a fight, let dicks park in disabled spots, do nothing to stop a shoplifter... you don’t have to be Dirty Harry, but standing by with your thumb up your arse while people cheat, steal and do bad shit is shit.

It's not an odd mentality.

It's REALITY.

Seriously, what does all your complaining, worrying, anger and frustration about such a triathlon cheater get you? So you report the guy. 9/10 NOTHING happens because it's your word vs his/hers unless there is camera evidence or really egregious cheating going on. Even if there IS corroborated cheating, if the time saved isn't that big, 9/10 the RD doesn't do squat about it.
.

I wouldn't get angry or get my knickers in a twist I would simply confront him and/or report him. A guy in my age group, Mark Robson, Australia's answer to Julie Miller cheated and got away with it for years. Winning races, going to the 70.3 and ITU world champs after continually cutting the course, depriving the genuine winners of their spot on the podium and their chance at going to the world champs. I had no idea who this spanner was until he got banned. And it transpired that loads of people knew what was going on and either chose to ignore it or pretend it wasn't happening. He's a gumby swimmer, would be lucky to go under 35mins for a 70.3 then he goes 22min for a 70.3, won an award for fastest AG swim (he "beat" most of the pros) and most of his club mates slapped him on the back for his performance.

The very reason he was allowed to carry on cheating was because of the people's apathy. You don't have to get angry and lose sleep over it, but do something about it.

Are you telling me, in this situation, you would do nothing about his blatant cheating and allow him to carry on doing this for years?

Last edited by: zedzded: Nov 14, 19 17:49

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