Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [Pooks] [ In reply to ]

May 12, 14 18:14

Post #76 of 154 (12990 views)

Pooks wrote:

We're essentially saying the same thing. Hard work gets you to the higher/highest levels of the sport, genetics will determine what level you can ultimately reach. But without the work you'll not get anywhere.

We're kind of saying the same thing, but not completely. Without the genetics you won't get anywhere.

You can do all the hard work in the world and not hit 300w.

Or you can roll off the couch and hop on a bike and be rolling 300w within a couple of weeks.

The former happens much more frequently than the latter, but the latter does happen.

And that's simply genetics. So I don't agree with your last sentence at all, especially in regards to the op who was talking about a fairly mediocre (relatively speaking) wattage like 300w. Hard work does matter for many, but not for all for that level.

Last edited by: needmoreair: May 12, 14 18:16

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [NeverEnough] [ In reply to ]

May 12, 14 18:56

Post #77 of 154 (12948 views)

NeverEnough wrote:

xtrpickels wrote:

Power13 wrote:

NeverEnough wrote:

Alright, thanks for all of the responses....perhaps I should add some clarification.

I am 6'1" 156 lbs on race day, 159/160 during training. My BF is 8.5% (calipers) 12-13% (BF Scale).

I looked back at my last race data (Haines City 70.3). 2:39, 207 average power, 21.0 MPH, IMFL was 20.4 mph, I did not have a power meter for that race.

I have been working with a coach for the last 16 months. I am very pleased with my race performance improvements...he has done a hell of a job...and I have trained my ass off.

We train off of heart rate (bike/run)...and those zones were set 16 months ago, and I have seen definite improvement. I am faster at lower hear rates.

My coach (trust him completely) told me that some of my concern about not being able to push to higher heart rates during training can be due to training fatigue. I am sure that is the case.

My speed on the bike has improved also.....it just seems like the effort I have put in should be yielding more than a 207 avg watts for a race. Really, I don't care what the watts are....just using that as a gauge, as people on ST throw that number around. My goal is to be able to avg 22+ MPH for a 70.3 and 21+ for a full....since speed translates to lower times.

Lastly, i know there are a lot of factors to take in, but for me to hit those speed, what sort of wattage would I need to push (average). Does it just take longer to build up to higher wattage/faster speed on the bike vs run?

Why are you training off HR for the bike if you have a power meter? And why haven't you reset your zones in 16 months?

Honestly, those two points would make me question what your coach is doing.

This bears repeating.

My coach uses HR primarily, I happen to have a power meter and I see watts when I am on the CT, we also use watts for intervals but primarily training is HR based.

I hear what you are saying about 16 months...I have definitely improved in this area but I sort of feel like if I am killing myself trying to get my HR up to Z3, why re-test and not push as hard as I would to get my HR that high? I have not asked about re-testing, he knows what he is doing....I keep having a PR (knock on wood) at every race so something is working...and I am very pleased. My question is really about understanding how you get to the point of operating at higher wattage (aka go faster), what is a realistic gain, is it a time thing, leg strength, etc. I guess I just feel like I should be faster on the bike by now.

You are equating two things that are not necessarily related.....your results and your belief that your coach knows what he is doing.

I could pull together a half-assed training plan and as long as you followed it, you would improve (especially as a newbie). That is not hard to do. The question needs to be are you maximizing your potential?

To be brutally honest, based on the two points noted above, I honestly don't think your coach knows what he is doing. Training by HR when power is available is simply mind-blowing. Over 16 months, your fitness has improved. If you are retesting to find out what your new levels are, you are not training efficiently.

I get that you have improved with your coach....but as shown above, it doesn't necessarily mean what you think it means.

I would recommend looking for a new coach. Seriously.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [needmoreair] [ In reply to ]

May 12, 14 18:58

Post #78 of 154 (12947 views)

I recommend everyone read Michael Hutchinson's new / forthcoming book entitled "Faster - The Obsession, Science, and Luck Behind the World's Fastest Cyclists". The Kindle version is out already and the paperback will be released in the fall.

http://www.amazon.com/...clists/dp/1408843757

It's one of the best books I've read on the topic of "why am I not faster? and what does it take to be a pro?". Hutchinson himself has a world-class lung capacity and was one of the top TT specialists in the UK for a period of time (slightly below the Wiggins / Millar level but certainly up there). He covers all of the crazy things that cyclists (TT specialists in particular) do to make themselves faster, and fully describes the huge impact that genetics has on your performance.

Regarding pros who are genetically gifted - in one section of the book he interviews Alex Dowsett (recent UK TT champion and Pro-Tour cyclist for Movistar). Dowsett admits that he doesn't really love cycling - or at least to the extent that a typical cycling fan who watches EuroSport all year long and gets up early in the morning to do group rides for fun does. Dowsett said the most important thing that allowed him to be a pro was that he was just naturally gifted at it. Yes - hard work was needed to make it happen. But it sort of makes you laugh / cry when you realize that some of the world's top pro cyclists are putting out double the watts that you can, and they aren't really half as much into the sport as you are.

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [Power13] [ In reply to ]

May 12, 14 19:14

Post #79 of 154 (12927 views)

Power13 wrote:

NeverEnough wrote:

xtrpickels wrote:

Power13 wrote:

NeverEnough wrote:

Alright, thanks for all of the responses....perhaps I should add some clarification.

I am 6'1" 156 lbs on race day, 159/160 during training. My BF is 8.5% (calipers) 12-13% (BF Scale).

I looked back at my last race data (Haines City 70.3). 2:39, 207 average power, 21.0 MPH, IMFL was 20.4 mph, I did not have a power meter for that race.

I have been working with a coach for the last 16 months. I am very pleased with my race performance improvements...he has done a hell of a job...and I have trained my ass off.

We train off of heart rate (bike/run)...and those zones were set 16 months ago, and I have seen definite improvement. I am faster at lower hear rates.

My coach (trust him completely) told me that some of my concern about not being able to push to higher heart rates during training can be due to training fatigue. I am sure that is the case.

My speed on the bike has improved also.....it just seems like the effort I have put in should be yielding more than a 207 avg watts for a race. Really, I don't care what the watts are....just using that as a gauge, as people on ST throw that number around. My goal is to be able to avg 22+ MPH for a 70.3 and 21+ for a full....since speed translates to lower times.

Lastly, i know there are a lot of factors to take in, but for me to hit those speed, what sort of wattage would I need to push (average). Does it just take longer to build up to higher wattage/faster speed on the bike vs run?

Why are you training off HR for the bike if you have a power meter? And why haven't you reset your zones in 16 months?

Honestly, those two points would make me question what your coach is doing.

This bears repeating.

My coach uses HR primarily, I happen to have a power meter and I see watts when I am on the CT, we also use watts for intervals but primarily training is HR based.

I hear what you are saying about 16 months...I have definitely improved in this area but I sort of feel like if I am killing myself trying to get my HR up to Z3, why re-test and not push as hard as I would to get my HR that high? I have not asked about re-testing, he knows what he is doing....I keep having a PR (knock on wood) at every race so something is working...and I am very pleased. My question is really about understanding how you get to the point of operating at higher wattage (aka go faster), what is a realistic gain, is it a time thing, leg strength, etc. I guess I just feel like I should be faster on the bike by now.

You are equating two things that are not necessarily related.....your results and your belief that your coach knows what he is doing.

I could pull together a half-assed training plan and as long as you followed it, you would improve (especially as a newbie). That is not hard to do. The question needs to be are you maximizing your potential?

To be brutally honest, based on the two points noted above, I honestly don't think your coach knows what he is doing. Training by HR when power is available is simply mind-blowing. Over 16 months, your fitness has improved. If you are retesting to find out what your new levels are, you are not training efficiently.

I get that you have improved with your coach....but as shown above, it doesn't necessarily mean what you think it means.

I would recommend looking for a new coach. Seriously.

I hope this horse has been beaten to death, but lets be real here.

You train with power, I train with power. So far, so good.

I occasionally look at things like speed & HR, because those are outputs. It goes something like this:

watts -> other factors (elevation, hydration, temperature, fatigue) = speed, HR.

And to answer your question, 300w is easy (upcoming nothumblebrag alert). Get a real coach.

My FTP in 2 years of triathlons:
Winter 2013: 318
Summer 2013: 335
Fall 2013: 353
Spring 2014: 368

Weight has been consistent enough, ~80kg.

Get a real coach.

----
@adamwfurlong

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [afurlong] [ In reply to ]

May 12, 14 20:04

Post #80 of 154 (12884 views)

Whilst I also question using hr when power is available, i disagree that 300 watts ++ is not easy... Ur throwing down some serious watts but is that translating to fast bike splits?

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [NeverEnough] [ In reply to ]

May 13, 14 3:29

Post #81 of 154 (12804 views)

NeverEnough wrote:

My coach uses HR primarily, I happen to have a power meter and I see watts when I am on the CT, we also use watts for intervals but primarily training is HR based.

Others have commented but this really jumped out at me.

Somebody once told me that training by HR is like driving your car by engine temperature. It's a useful metric, but when you have something much better to use, do that. Does it not strike you as odd to see your watts falling for the same HR during a long interval?

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [coates_hbk] [ In reply to ]

May 13, 14 3:41

Post #82 of 154 (12797 views)

300 watts is relative to the size of the person. If I could ride 300 watts I'd probably be a 50 min 40K guy

I've averaged 25mph in a sprint triathlon on 212 watts, 300 watts would be incredible for me...so not easy.

jaretj

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [Pooks] [ In reply to ]

May 13, 14 6:01

Post #83 of 154 (12696 views)

Pooks wrote:

needmoreair wrote:

Genetics. All genetics.

I'm sure pros just love reading this sort of thing. No hard work and training, just genetics.

I'd argue that pros are far more likely to realize their athletic potential than AGers. And thats a terribly hard thing to do.

I agree. There are a few examples of professionals with an abundance of natural talent who never develop their potential, but on balance professional cyclists are much closer to their peak ability than serious amateurs. The reasons are pretty obvious. I can sustain training that resembles ~75% of what a pro does, but I don't have the luxury of recovering like they do. Silly as it sounds, when a pro lounges around and relaxes when off the bike they are "working" to make the next session productive. I've got a job, grass that needs mowed, a wife and kids. I don't care how Type-A someone thinks they can be about their training and recovery, they are leaving potential on the table as long as they need to balance the sport against something else. This, along with choosing the right parents, is the advantage professionals have that lets them reach their potential.

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

May 13, 14 6:23

Post #84 of 154 (12677 views)

jackmott wrote:

ChrisM wrote:

Gain 30# and ride up a big hill for an hour

That isn't going to work. Getting fatter or more muscular only has a tiny effect on your FTP.

"bigger" guys tend to have bigger FTP because they are taller, and our wonderful genetic code scales the aerobic engine with height.

This is very interesting to me. I'm 6'7", 195-ish# and I use 300 watts as my FTP. I do 1/2IMs at ~255 watts; 7th in AG after the bike at Muncie last year. In March, 300 is not my FTP; but by this time of year it's a good standard. I'll lose a few #s to race weight around 190-ish. And, my power ability generally goes up as the season goes on (could be > 300, but I never test it later in the season. That seems to buttress your assertion. I always just figured that 300 watt FTP was because I weigh 195; not because I'm 6'7". It kind of makes sense, I'd have to think about it more, I guess. So, if I put on more weight (not a good idea for faster racing, etc.; I'm just asking), then that would not impact my wattage FTP on the bike? And, similarly, for your assertion to be true, then I could lose weight naturally (i.e., by eating fewer calories; not by burning more calories by working harder on the bike, which would increase my FTP) and that would not adversely impact my FTP, right?

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [NeverEnough] [ In reply to ]

May 13, 14 6:50

Post #85 of 154 (12649 views)

Hey Mike, I'd be willing to talk with you a bit about how I hit over 300 for my FTP at the end of last year if you would like. I rotated the same 5 workouts every single week for the last half of last year doing at most 4 a week, and most of the time only 3 since I was racing a lot at the end of the year.

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [Pooks] [ In reply to ]

May 13, 14 6:50

Post #86 of 154 (12648 views)

Pooks wrote:

needmoreair wrote:

Genetics. All genetics.

I'm sure pros just love reading this sort of thing. No hard work and training, just genetics.

I'd argue that pros are far more likely to realize their athletic potential than AGers. And that's a terribly hard thing to do.

Part of their genetic gift is the mental ability to sustain hard efforts, the drive to compete, the work ethic to train hard day in and day out to achieve a goal or see just very small gains. It's similar to the obsessive behavior many academics or engineers and doctors have towards their profession, research, invention, design, etc. Professional athletes posses both a physical gift and metal gift.

TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [TriFloyd] [ In reply to ]

May 13, 14 6:54

Post #87 of 154 (12637 views)

Yes, gaining or losing weight should not affect your FTP *much*

Adding muscle mass may increase your anaerobic capacity, which will contribute a few (like 3 or 4) watts to your FTP

Similarly losing weight may cost you anaerobic capacity, and cost your 3 or 4 watts on your FTP.

So as long as you don't get so thin that your body stops functioning well, aerobic power should not decrease much. It might decrease while you are operating at a caloric deficit, in the process of losing the weight though. I think this is what stops a lot of people from getting skinnier. They are weak while losing it.

TriFloyd wrote:

This is very interesting to me. I'm 6'7", 195-ish# and I use 300 watts as my FTP. I do 1/2IMs at ~255 watts; 7th in AG after the bike at Muncie last year. In March, 300 is not my FTP; but by this time of year it's a good standard. I'll lose a few #s to race weight around 190-ish. And, my power ability generally goes up as the season goes on (could be > 300, but I never test it later in the season. That seems to buttress your assertion. I always just figured that 300 watt FTP was because I weigh 195; not because I'm 6'7". It kind of makes sense, I'd have to think about it more, I guess. So, if I put on more weight (not a good idea for faster racing, etc.; I'm just asking), then that would not impact my wattage FTP on the bike? And, similarly, for your assertion to be true, then I could lose weight naturally (i.e., by eating fewer calories; not by burning more calories by working harder on the bike, which would increase my FTP) and that would not adversely impact my FTP, right?

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [NeverEnough] [ In reply to ]

May 13, 14 6:54

Post #88 of 154 (12637 views)

NeverEnough wrote:

My coach uses HR primarily, I happen to have a power meter and I see watts when I am on the CT, we also use watts for intervals but primarily training is HR based.

HR is a product not an output. Even RPE is better than hr for training, but if you have a powermeter there's little to no reason to use it to guide your training.

NeverEnough wrote:

I hear what you are saying about 16 months...I have definitely improved in this area but I sort of feel like if I am killing myself trying to get my HR up to Z3, why re-test and not push as hard as I would to get my HR that high? I have not asked about re-testing, he knows what he is doing....I keep having a PR (knock on wood) at every race so something is working...and I am very pleased. My question is really about understanding how you get to the point of operating at higher wattage (aka go faster), what is a realistic gain, is it a time thing, leg strength, etc. I guess I just feel like I should be faster on the bike by now.

Yeah you've been training for 16 months. It's false logic to attribute it exclusively to your coach. Even if you were just going out the door everyday and doing whatever you felt like you'd probably continue to improve. If you were training more logically/effectively you'd probably have improved even more.

___________________
Twitter | Kancman | Blog

Last edited by: snackchair: May 13, 14 6:55

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [Clempson] [ In reply to ]

May 13, 14 8:01

Post #89 of 154 (12582 views)

Clempson wrote:

Hey Mike, I'd be willing to talk with you a bit about how I hit over 300 for my FTP at the end of last year if you would like. I rotated the same 5 workouts every single week for the last half of last year doing at most 4 a week, and most of the time only 3 since I was racing a lot at the end of the year.

Thanks bro.....you were on my list to call and talk to!

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [aaronechang] [ In reply to ]

May 13, 14 8:43

Post #90 of 154 (12543 views)

aaronechang wrote:

Regarding pros who are genetically gifted - in one section of the book he interviews Alex Dowsett (recent UK TT champion and Pro-Tour cyclist for Movistar). Dowsett admits that he doesn't really love cycling - or at least to the extent that a typical cycling fan who watches EuroSport all year long and gets up early in the morning to do group rides for fun does. Dowsett said the most important thing that allowed him to be a pro was that he was just naturally gifted at it. Yes - hard work was needed to make it happen. But it sort of makes you laugh / cry when you realize that some of the world's top pro cyclists are putting out double the watts that you can, and they aren't really half as much into the sport as you are.

This is common in pro sports. I've read many bios of tennis players that say they hate tennis (McEnroe, Agassi, etc.). That's the downside of being a pro. It's kind of unnatural, turning a sport into a job/profession. So many pros talk of the grind of travel, expectations, relentless competition, politics, etc. It's not all it's cracked up to be, I don't think. It turns into a "job".

I think being a pro at any sport would suck the joy out of it for me. (But that's not exactly a problem I'm faced with, deciding to be pro or not.)

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [Jason80134] [ In reply to ]

May 13, 14 8:45

Post #91 of 154 (12537 views)

Look at the pros in the giro this year.

Fly to ireland, race in rain for 3 days.
then fly to italy, next day, race in the rain again, in streets that have no grip at all.

everyone crashes

tomorrow they will race again ,like it or not.

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

May 13, 14 8:52

Post #92 of 154 (12530 views)

Yes, exactly my point!

I do sports as a release from work. I wonder if they grind on Excel spreadsheets as a release from their "work".

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

May 13, 14 8:59

Post #93 of 154 (12514 views)

jackmott wrote:

Yes, gaining or losing weight should not affect your FTP *much*

Adding muscle mass may increase your anaerobic capacity, which will contribute a few (like 3 or 4) watts to your FTP

Similarly losing weight may cost you anaerobic capacity, and cost your 3 or 4 watts on your FTP.

So as long as you don't get so thin that your body stops functioning well, aerobic power should not decrease much. It might decrease while you are operating at a caloric deficit, in the process of losing the weight though. I think this is what stops a lot of people from getting skinnier. They are weak while losing it.

TriFloyd wrote:

This is very interesting to me. I'm 6'7", 195-ish# and I use 300 watts as my FTP. I do 1/2IMs at ~255 watts; 7th in AG after the bike at Muncie last year. In March, 300 is not my FTP; but by this time of year it's a good standard. I'll lose a few #s to race weight around 190-ish. And, my power ability generally goes up as the season goes on (could be > 300, but I never test it later in the season. That seems to buttress your assertion. I always just figured that 300 watt FTP was because I weigh 195; not because I'm 6'7". It kind of makes sense, I'd have to think about it more, I guess. So, if I put on more weight (not a good idea for faster racing, etc.; I'm just asking), then that would not impact my wattage FTP on the bike? And, similarly, for your assertion to be true, then I could lose weight naturally (i.e., by eating fewer calories; not by burning more calories by working harder on the bike, which would increase my FTP) and that would not adversely impact my FTP, right?

I totally agree... and I've struggled with this on higher volume weeks as I'm trying to trim some weight which is counterproductive to workout quality. Unfortunately I wasn't completely successful at dropping weight during my base phase and maintaining discipline there after. But in hindsight, I'm better off increasing my fitness than dropping weight during build periods. It think it's why my FTP leveled off. I'm stretching my energy systems so thin with my training volume that there's just not enough "oomph" leftover to push it on rides.

Ultimately it's pointless to dwell on a number. you put in the work, your fitness will improve and you'll go faster.... or even better, you go faster because you paid attention to aero details and improved your bike fit.

TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [Jason80134] [ In reply to ]

May 13, 14 9:01

Post #94 of 154 (12511 views)

Jason80134 wrote:

. I wonder if they grind on Excel spreadsheets as a release from their "work".

I do that..lol

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [NeverEnough] [ In reply to ]

May 13, 14 9:02

Post #95 of 154 (12509 views)

Forget 300 watts...what I'd like to know is how the hell people hit 400 watts! I'm a okay amateur racer and a 400 watt threshold is a complete impossibility for me no matter what training I ever put into the sport. Choose your parents well.

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [nightfend] [ In reply to ]

May 13, 14 9:29

Post #96 of 154 (12468 views)

Even in the ProTour there are very few individuals who can put out 400+ watts for any extended period of time. Here is an estimate of the watts and CDA for each rider in Stage 11 of last year's Tour de France: http://www.cyclingpowerlab.com/proraceanalysis.aspx

Not sure as to the accuracy of the information, but interesting to see their estimates nonetheless.

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [aaronechang] [ In reply to ]

May 13, 14 9:38

Post #97 of 154 (12451 views)

>Even in the ProTour there are very few individuals who can put out 400+ watts for any extended period of time.

The caveats are that most of those guys are 135-155lbs, and it was Stage 11. I'd bet most of the guys outside the top 20 were just sitting on 330W to safely make the 25% time cutoff with a 3-4 minute buffer for catastrophic mechanical.

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [trail] [ In reply to ]

May 13, 14 9:40

Post #98 of 154 (12445 views)

trail wrote:

>Even in the ProTour there are very few individuals who can put out 400+ watts for any extended period of time.

The caveats are that most of those guys are 135-155lbs, and it was Stage 11. I'd bet most of the guys outside the top 20 were just sitting on 330W to safely make the 25% time cutoff with a 3-4 minute buffer for catastrophic mechanical.

also, tired.

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

May 13, 14 9:41

Post #99 of 154 (12432 views)

>also, tired.

Yeah, that's what I meant by "Stage 11."

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [trail] [ In reply to ]

May 13, 14 9:47

Post #100 of 154 (12418 views)

True - good points. I don't think anybody is surprised to see Martin, Froome, Tuft and other big guys put out close to 400 watts. The one rider on the list I find fascinating is Jonathan Castroviejo. He is the reigning Spanish national TT champion and is about 5' 8" and weighs about 137 lbs (!)

With off the charts power / weight ratio like that that you'd expect him to dominate the mountains and be a GC contender, but apparently that's not the case. I've followed him closely over the past year and it seems like Movistar (as well his previous team) use him purely as a TT specialist. Definitely lends some credence to the theory that not all watts are created equal - just because you can put out lots of power on the flats doesn't necessarily make you a good climber (even if you are a flyweight).

Also, Castroviejo has the most extreme TT aero position I've seen.

Our Partners

transition-DOT-area-AT-slowtwitch-DOT-com

Advertise with us

©1999-2024 Slowtwitch, Inc., and Slowtwitch.com
Reproduction of material from any Slowtwitch.com page
without written permission is strictly prohibited.