Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [WiScott] [ In reply to ]

May 12, 14 10:31

Post #26 of 154 (11042 views)

That actually puts 300 watts in the vicinity of what the average person can attain with a LOOOOT of hard work.

I kind of figure that 300 is near my genetic limit.

WiScott wrote:

echappist wrote:

Stop running. Running prevents you from getting adquate recovery if you are putting in work on the bike

How you get to 300 W? Good parents and good training. If your question is more like how do you get a decent w/kg, watch your diet (which you seem to be doing).

As others have mentioned, get your cycling specific LTHR and proceed accordingly. When you want to do a test, do so outdoors, when you are not fatigued. I won'tbe surprised if you pick up another 20 watts or so

Fwiw, Coggan estimated that most could hit 4.4 w/kg with dedicated training

I'll have to dig up A.C.'s post...but I was pretty certain he calculated < 50% of all "middle aged" males could even hit 4.0 w/kg.

-Scott

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [NeverEnough] [ In reply to ]

May 12, 14 10:37

Post #27 of 154 (11021 views)

Gain 30# and ride up a big hill for an hour

Or just type it on slowtwitch that you hit 300

Week before last I did a very hilly ride and NP was 303 for 3:03, but at 190-195 my w/kg isn't all that impressive, barely a cat 3 if I recall the chart. AP was about 241 (rendering a *horrible* VI :) ) . Hills help.

Last edited by: ChrisM: May 12, 14 10:37

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [NeverEnough] [ In reply to ]

May 12, 14 10:39

Post #28 of 154 (11018 views)

Have you ever ridden outside with a powermeter or just on the computrainer?

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [kdw] [ In reply to ]

May 12, 14 10:44

Post #29 of 154 (11008 views)

kdw wrote:

Have you ever ridden outside with a powermeter or just on the computrainer?

Yes, my race results were outdoors.

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [WiScott] [ In reply to ]

May 12, 14 11:45

Post #30 of 154 (10919 views)

I stand corrected. I think we are both referring to the same theead. Perhaps it was something like 300w for 75kg or something?

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [WiScott] [ In reply to ]

blueraider_mike

May 12, 14 11:56

Post #31 of 154 (10899 views)

WiScott wrote:

echappist wrote:

Stop running. Running prevents you from getting adquate recovery if you are putting in work on the bike

How you get to 300 W? Good parents and good training. If your question is more like how do you get a decent w/kg, watch your diet (which you seem to be doing).

As others have mentioned, get your cycling specific LTHR and proceed accordingly. When you want to do a test, do so outdoors, when you are not fatigued. I won'tbe surprised if you pick up another 20 watts or so

Fwiw, Coggan estimated that most could hit 4.4 w/kg with dedicated training

I'll have to dig up A.C.'s post...but I was pretty certain he calculated < 50% of all "middle aged" males could even hit 4.0 w/kg.

-Scott

That's because most of them are carrying too much weight (I will be 50 next month)...my bike after 15 years of tri is really getting better - the biggest factor is I have dropped 15 lbs from my previous normal. Add a PM to know how you really are training and I am closing in on the 4w/kg. and should be there soon...I just hate to effin tests to verify them!

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]

May 12, 14 12:01

Post #32 of 154 (10882 views)

ChrisM wrote:

Gain 30# and ride up a big hill for an hour

That isn't going to work. Getting fatter or more muscular only has a tiny effect on your FTP.

"bigger" guys tend to have bigger FTP because they are taller, and our wonderful genetic code scales the aerobic engine with height.

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [blueraider_mike] [ In reply to ]

May 12, 14 12:04

Post #33 of 154 (10871 views)

I got to 4.00 watt/kg by getting to 300w, then dropping 15 lbs and maintaining same power. Helps to start fat, and lose the weight by biking a lot!

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [NeverEnough] [ In reply to ]

May 12, 14 12:19

Post #34 of 154 (10838 views)

Now I don't know you or what your background is, but if you can't get your HR into Z3 when you're doing Z3 watts (which everyone is right about: watts depend on the person, don't worry about how many someone else does), then that may not be your Z3 HR. That seems pretty straight-forward. Have you done a cycling test? Do you know those are your HR zones? Because if you can't achieve them, then they may not be.

kelly dunleavy o'mara
@kellydomara

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [NeverEnough] [ In reply to ]

May 12, 14 12:39

Post #35 of 154 (10785 views)

You ever see Good Will Hunting. Will, the genius, says regarding math, etc:

Will: Right. Well, I mean when it came to stuff like that... I could always just play.

The guys holding 300+ watts for 2-4 hours, a lot of them are like Will. I feel pretty lucky that I got some ok cards dealt to me for cycling, with some hard work I'm >4 w/kg, which allows me to get some ok results as long as there aren't too many "Will"s in the field. Note that none of this discounts the value of hard work, it just means that each of us tends to hit different results with the same workload. A given individual will do better if they work hard/smart.

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [Power13] [ In reply to ]

May 12, 14 12:39

Post #36 of 154 (10781 views)

Power13 wrote:

NeverEnough wrote:

Alright, thanks for all of the responses....perhaps I should add some clarification.

I am 6'1" 156 lbs on race day, 159/160 during training. My BF is 8.5% (calipers) 12-13% (BF Scale).

I looked back at my last race data (Haines City 70.3). 2:39, 207 average power, 21.0 MPH, IMFL was 20.4 mph, I did not have a power meter for that race.

I have been working with a coach for the last 16 months. I am very pleased with my race performance improvements...he has done a hell of a job...and I have trained my ass off.

We train off of heart rate (bike/run)...and those zones were set 16 months ago, and I have seen definite improvement. I am faster at lower hear rates.

My coach (trust him completely) told me that some of my concern about not being able to push to higher heart rates during training can be due to training fatigue. I am sure that is the case.

My speed on the bike has improved also.....it just seems like the effort I have put in should be yielding more than a 207 avg watts for a race. Really, I don't care what the watts are....just using that as a gauge, as people on ST throw that number around. My goal is to be able to avg 22+ MPH for a 70.3 and 21+ for a full....since speed translates to lower times.

Lastly, i know there are a lot of factors to take in, but for me to hit those speed, what sort of wattage would I need to push (average). Does it just take longer to build up to higher wattage/faster speed on the bike vs run?

Why are you training off HR for the bike if you have a power meter? And why haven't you reset your zones in 16 months?

Honestly, those two points would make me question what your coach is doing.

This bears repeating.

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [NeverEnough] [ In reply to ]

May 12, 14 12:42

Post #37 of 154 (10773 views)

My HR is also on the lower end on the bike. During a 20 minute TT I can get into the low 170's. That's it.

24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
Insta: chris.s.apex

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [NeverEnough] [ In reply to ]

May 12, 14 12:43

Post #38 of 154 (10769 views)

Have you gotten into any group rides?

You should find a local group ride that you would struggle to take pulls at the front. Do everything you can to stay with them on the climbs and eventually work your way to taking a couple pulls during the ride.

Best way to get strong is to train with those that are stronger than you! Nothing like the possibility of humiliation to motivate you :)

Last edited by: stinkerpeter: May 12, 14 12:44

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [NeverEnough] [ In reply to ]

May 12, 14 13:15

Post #39 of 154 (10693 views)

how the hell do people hit 300 watts?

Step 1: Pick good parents
Step 2: Buy a power meter and obsess yourself with Strava.
Step 3: Train really hard
Step 4: Train even harder
Step 5: Stop doing unnecessary things like swimming and running
Step 6: Stop doing necessary things that infringe on your ability to train and recover. You know...like work, chores, attention to family/friends, etc.
Step 7: Dope

Some people can achieve the goal in fewer steps than others.

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]

May 12, 14 13:22

Post #40 of 154 (10669 views)

xtrpickels wrote:

Power13 wrote:

NeverEnough wrote:

Alright, thanks for all of the responses....perhaps I should add some clarification.

I am 6'1" 156 lbs on race day, 159/160 during training. My BF is 8.5% (calipers) 12-13% (BF Scale).

I looked back at my last race data (Haines City 70.3). 2:39, 207 average power, 21.0 MPH, IMFL was 20.4 mph, I did not have a power meter for that race.

I have been working with a coach for the last 16 months. I am very pleased with my race performance improvements...he has done a hell of a job...and I have trained my ass off.

We train off of heart rate (bike/run)...and those zones were set 16 months ago, and I have seen definite improvement. I am faster at lower hear rates.

My coach (trust him completely) told me that some of my concern about not being able to push to higher heart rates during training can be due to training fatigue. I am sure that is the case.

My speed on the bike has improved also.....it just seems like the effort I have put in should be yielding more than a 207 avg watts for a race. Really, I don't care what the watts are....just using that as a gauge, as people on ST throw that number around. My goal is to be able to avg 22+ MPH for a 70.3 and 21+ for a full....since speed translates to lower times.

Lastly, i know there are a lot of factors to take in, but for me to hit those speed, what sort of wattage would I need to push (average). Does it just take longer to build up to higher wattage/faster speed on the bike vs run?

Why are you training off HR for the bike if you have a power meter? And why haven't you reset your zones in 16 months?

Honestly, those two points would make me question what your coach is doing.

This bears repeating.

My coach uses HR primarily, I happen to have a power meter and I see watts when I am on the CT, we also use watts for intervals but primarily training is HR based.

I hear what you are saying about 16 months...I have definitely improved in this area but I sort of feel like if I am killing myself trying to get my HR up to Z3, why re-test and not push as hard as I would to get my HR that high? I have not asked about re-testing, he knows what he is doing....I keep having a PR (knock on wood) at every race so something is working...and I am very pleased. My question is really about understanding how you get to the point of operating at higher wattage (aka go faster), what is a realistic gain, is it a time thing, leg strength, etc. I guess I just feel like I should be faster on the bike by now.

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [NeverEnough] [ In reply to ]

May 12, 14 13:26

Post #41 of 154 (10654 views)

NeverEnough wrote:

My question is really about understanding how you get to the point of operating at higher wattage (aka go faster),

Bike more

Quote:

what is a realistic gain

depends, the only way to know is work hard and see what happens.

Quote:

is it a time thing, leg strength, etc. I guess I just feel like I should be faster on the bike by now.

Most of the gains will come pretty quick if you put in a lot of time and effort. They can slowly increase year by year on top of that though. Has nothing to do with leg strength. It is aerobic.

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [NeverEnough] [ In reply to ]

May 12, 14 13:31

Post #42 of 154 (10635 views)

NeverEnough wrote:

Alright, thanks for all of the responses....perhaps I should add some clarification.

I am 6'1" 156 lbs on race day, 159/160 during training. My BF is 8.5% (calipers) 12-13% (BF Scale).

I looked back at my last race data (Haines City 70.3). 2:39, 207 average power, 21.0 MPH, IMFL was 20.4 mph, I did not have a power meter for that race.

I have been working with a coach for the last 16 months. I am very pleased with my race performance improvements...he has done a hell of a job...and I have trained my ass off.

We train off of heart rate (bike/run)...and those zones were set 16 months ago, and I have seen definite improvement. I am faster at lower hear rates.

My coach (trust him completely) told me that some of my concern about not being able to push to higher heart rates during training can be due to training fatigue. I am sure that is the case.

My speed on the bike has improved also.....it just seems like the effort I have put in should be yielding more than a 207 avg watts for a race. Really, I don't care what the watts are....just using that as a gauge, as people on ST throw that number around. My goal is to be able to avg 22+ MPH for a 70.3 and 21+ for a full....since speed translates to lower times.

Lastly, i know there are a lot of factors to take in, but for me to hit those speed, what sort of wattage would I need to push (average). Does it just take longer to build up to higher wattage/faster speed on the bike vs run?

... see the bold font above. How do you know your ave power was 207 if you didn't have a power meter??

But...207 watts for over 2.5 hours seems pretty strong to me.

Last edited by: Donzo98: May 12, 14 13:35

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [jbank] [ In reply to ]

May 12, 14 13:46

Post #43 of 154 (10587 views)

You ever see Good Will Hunting. Will, the genius, says regarding math, etc:

Will: Right. Well, I mean when it came to stuff like that... I could always just play.

The guys holding 300+ watts for 2-4 hours, a lot of them are like Will. I feel pretty lucky that I got some ok cards dealt to me for cycling, with some hard work I'm >4 w/kg, which allows me to get some ok results as long as there aren't too many "Will"s in the field. Note that none of this discounts the value of hard work, it just means that each of us tends to hit different results with the same workload. A given individual will do better if they work hard/smart.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

This x2. Genetics and natural ability is HUGE. Having the data availalble we do today is a blessing and a curse. We end up comparing ourselves, using our data, to people we have NO business comparing ourselves to. We are not Pros, we are AG'ers and this is our hobby, or passion, or what we do to pretend to be young. I would second riding with people who are faster and hitting some hard group rises. I am all for efficient use of time, and the trainer definitetly accomplishes that, but you can get faster just trying to hang with guys/gals who know how to put the hammer down/then recover on group rides. You alone will rarely have a breakthrough workout or surprise yourself sitting on the trainer.

Last edited by: JBAX: May 12, 14 13:48

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [NeverEnough] [ In reply to ]

May 12, 14 13:50

Post #44 of 154 (10572 views)

NeverEnough wrote:

I hear what you are saying about 16 months...I have definitely improved in this area but I sort of feel like if I am killing myself trying to get my HR up to Z3, why re-test and not push as hard as I would to get my HR that high? I have not asked about re-testing, he knows what he is doing....I keep having a PR (knock on wood) at every race so something is working...and I am very pleased. My question is really about understanding how you get to the point of operating at higher wattage (aka go faster), what is a realistic gain, is it a time thing, leg strength, etc. I guess I just feel like I should be faster on the bike by now.

Because at some point in time it becomes not about training "hard" or even "a lot". There also has to be training "appropriately" or "smartly".

Remember, you have to train the person who you are, not the athlete you want to be.

Question:
How has you max HR changed since a year ago? You're out of the saddle crushing it up a hill as hard as you can HR. Still similar? More than 10 beats lower?

Answers to your questions
1. Its not a leg strength thing. The force required for cycling is actually quite low. Yes, weightlifting and improved strength can help a. Very high wattages (sprinting), Musculotendinous stiffness (economy) and bone health (cycling is non-weightbearing), but you do not need to deadlift 1,000 lbs.
2. Volume of riding is probably the biggest contributor.
3. Realistic gains are very hard to figure. a. Genetics / Potential b. Life factors c. Current status all effect them.
4. 300 watts for hours is quite elite. If you were elite, you'd know already.

This blog post from last week is quite relevant to your questions. About 6 paragraphs in (Its a long one) it starts getting at some of your questions.
http://www.bcsm.org/tortoise-and-the-harewho-says-its-either-or/

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [NeverEnough] [ In reply to ]

May 12, 14 13:52

Post #45 of 154 (10569 views)

Have you done a maximum heart rate test? I assume your zones based on max HR & in my case formulas were not even close.

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]

May 12, 14 14:29

Post #46 of 154 (10504 views)

What sort of HR /Max HR can you hit while running ?

Looking at my logs I have hit 171 on the bike on the trainer in a FTP test, and running I have only hit 175 at the end of 5km & 10km races. I'm 28, but I don't think my max HR is that high and my resting HR is 38-40. Is that somewhat an anomally to have HR's that close? i've never done an actual max HR test, but I figure the sprint at the end of a 5km or 10km would be close?

I find doing sufferfest videos i'll hit low 160s regularly during hard intervals, but running I have to be in a race pretty much to get my HR that high (or doing intervals).

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [NeverEnough] [ In reply to ]

May 12, 14 14:30

Post #47 of 154 (10500 views)

NeverEnough wrote:

I have been cycling for about 2.5 years. I train on a computrainer 80% of the time and have seen improvements. However, based on my swimming improvement and running improvement, it seems like I have hit a wall with cycling. I usually hang out around 175-185 watts for a longer effort (2-4 hours). I cannot fathom how people hold 300+ watts for this long.

You regularly do 2-4hrs on the Computrainer? Are you being held in Guantanamo or something? I would just get it over with and tell them what they want to know!

In all honesty, I've biked a fair amount for a number of years and I can't really imagine holding any kind of reasonable power on the CT for that amount of time. I just couldn't do it mentally. If you're going to do your workouts indoors, I say do 1:00-1:15 per day every day and do 2x20s at pretty hard pace. That should make you very strong. Use Kevin Metcalf's (reigning masters national champ) post as a guide: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=4193285#4193285 I would do the exact same thing he does if I needed to train indoors.

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [tburke] [ In reply to ]

May 12, 14 14:30

Post #48 of 154 (10500 views)

I didn't read every post so this may have already been mentioned, basically you need to raise your maximum power to raise your power over time. Take it from an old bike racer (69 years old) that can still show 900+ watts maximum that you need to start doing short intervals to raise your max power. How short? Start at 10 seconds, after a couple of weeks add 20 sec intervals into the mix and work up to 2 min intervals while still doing the 10,20, 30, 40 sec intervals using max power. Only do these max power intervals once a week for a total of 10 minutes or less, not counting recovery periods between the intervals. Recovery periods should be 5 times as long as the interval when doing these short high power intervals, not the short recovery periods used when trying to raise VO2 max. I know that this seems counter productive in Tri where if you sprint on the bike in a race, you've just hurt your run but try it for a couple of months and see if the 300 watts doesn't come easier over a longer and longer period of time.

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [Jmath] [ In reply to ]

May 12, 14 14:35

Post #49 of 154 (10487 views)

Unfortunately I do not have good data to share. Due to injury I have not run for 2 years and did very little HR based training before that due to an extensive run background (didn't feel I needed it). I can tell you that intervals at threshold pace for running I was in the 165 range.

Riding at FTP is in the 155 range. So I believe my difference is in the 10BPM range.

Swimming I can go into the 160's just cruising up and down the pool!

24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
Insta: chris.s.apex

Re: Cycling Fitness...how the hell do people hit 300 watts? [Donzo98] [ In reply to ]

May 12, 14 14:43

Post #50 of 154 (10470 views)

Donzo98 wrote:

NeverEnough wrote:

Alright, thanks for all of the responses....perhaps I should add some clarification.

I am 6'1" 156 lbs on race day, 159/160 during training. My BF is 8.5% (calipers) 12-13% (BF Scale).

I looked back at my last race data (Haines City 70.3). 2:39, 207 average power, 21.0 MPH, IMFL was 20.4 mph, I did not have a power meter for that race.

I have been working with a coach for the last 16 months. I am very pleased with my race performance improvements...he has done a hell of a job...and I have trained my ass off.

We train off of heart rate (bike/run)...and those zones were set 16 months ago, and I have seen definite improvement. I am faster at lower hear rates.

My coach (trust him completely) told me that some of my concern about not being able to push to higher heart rates during training can be due to training fatigue. I am sure that is the case.

My speed on the bike has improved also.....it just seems like the effort I have put in should be yielding more than a 207 avg watts for a race. Really, I don't care what the watts are....just using that as a gauge, as people on ST throw that number around. My goal is to be able to avg 22+ MPH for a 70.3 and 21+ for a full....since speed translates to lower times.

Lastly, i know there are a lot of factors to take in, but for me to hit those speed, what sort of wattage would I need to push (average). Does it just take longer to build up to higher wattage/faster speed on the bike vs run?

... see the bold font above. How do you know your ave power was 207 if you didn't have a power meter??

But...207 watts for over 2.5 hours seems pretty strong to me.

Please read the entire line of text. I did have a PM for the 70.3 where I avg 21. I did not have it for IMFL (140.6) where I averaged 20.4

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