I understand how they work just fine thanks. A couple things that are being missed here. First is that the most elites of the bunch, the guys who will actually win the best of the best races are going to excel no matter what they do. Honestly, they're bad examples for any debate and shouldn't be used for argument, it sucks that they were from the very start. The Maccas and the Armstrongs and the Carpenters of the world or whoever else you idolize are just superhuman genetically and will excel no matter what. Yes their training is part of the equation, but even if they put it in total reverse and go with another training program, they will still do extremely well if not still be on top. Second, what works for one doesn't work for all. This is true for CF+CFE, it is true for your training. If you guys give just anyone who wants to do well your training program, it may work for them, it may not.

Doesn't pink mean joking?

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Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com

Doesn't pink mean joking?[/reply]More like sarcasm, but it works as well for jokes. You are joking, aren't you? You don't really think that how much weight you can move for 1-20 reps matters in a race that will see more than 30,000 reps at about 3 reps per second, do you?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

err... it's self-evident, isn't it? Kinda like raising the ceiling, and the foundation will rise, right?

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Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com

Thank you ... LOL! I actually started this thread after I saw my brothers posting threads on a major league baseball forum and I commented how the replies (in both quality and quantity) were not what I was used to seeing. I then told them "watch this" and after a couple of hours, needless to say, they were impressed, very very impressed. :> Another point for triathlon over baseball.

I, too, was actually impressed to see how everyone has stayed on topic for this many posts.

err... it's self-evident, isn't it? Kinda like raising the ceiling, and the foundation will rise, right?[/reply]err...no.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Hey, how about them Mets, huh?

:-)

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Haha, good chatting with you guys. Good luck with whatever races you're training for.

No? .... c'mon, THINK about it. Just put aside your pre-conceived notions. Now the same thing doesn't work for everybody, but just be willing to change. Change scares people, and this specificity stuff has been done for centuries, if not millenia, with the same result. We've got people who still haven't broken the 2 hr marathon. THINK about it.... people have been running for centuries upon centuries, but they still can't run a marathon faster than 2 hr. Doesn't that sounds strange??? All they really need to do is think outside of the box. They need to raise their ceiling..... lift some weights. I mean HEAVY weights. The kind of weights that would give Schwarznegger a hernia. Not the namby pampy Guvenator, but the real Arnold, the one on roids back in the 70s. Now I bet that guy could have busted out a 1:55 for 42 km. He just didn't want to.

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Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com

Got me. Ouch.

It's late on Friday, I've been writing code generator software all week, and I forgot who was posting.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

First, Brian never said in the interview that Chris McCormack can't or needs to squat 450 lbs. CFE is a supplement to CF. CrossFit is the program and the sport specific workouts become the supplement. Its not a jack of all trades master of none program. I never said people here were not doing work or that training for and competing in an IM is easy. I never doubted anyone's work ethic. Both approaches are viable and there will always be more than 1 approach. In the past I have done alot of LSD training with some success. The problem arises with the plateaus in performance. People will continue to get injured regardless of the program they are following. Many times this happens due to technique issues. Some of this comes from not having the proper instruction when learning a skill or when they are executing a skill. First, you need to have correct technique, then learn to do it faster, then learn to do it longer. This isn't always the order people use. Also, as with any gym it depends on the people who operate the gym as to the quality of the gym and what is done there. CF and CFE does not have an injury rate of more than any other program. I never said Brian has published research in peer edited journals. I noted articles that are applied in nature and were published in the CrossFit Journal which is not simply a fitness magazine. I am well aware of peer reviewed journals and used many when I wrote my thesis 4 1/2 years ago. I also used many applied research journals. There is a difference between applied and research based journals. I do not own a company or an employeed by CrossFit or CrossFit Endurance. I am CrossFit, CrossFit Endurance, and CrossFit Nutrition certified. I coach kids. Change isn't something people always like or embrace because it can involve new and different aspects or ideas. There will most likely be an adaptation phase which isn't always an easy time. Workouts probably won't be at the same level during this time and not everyone can or wants to deal with that aspect. It takes time to relearn something and create new motor patterns to incorporate the changes.

;)

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Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com

Kaitlin,

I'm sorry, but I really can't engage you. I wasted too much time reading this darn thread and pulling Ken's chain. I just think it's rather humorous that all the arguments that have been made in favor of this approach sound strangely reminiscent of those used to defend the product of a frequent poster on this site (who shall remain nameless since he doesn't need anymore publicity). The point is, the caveats, and qualifications don't do a very good job of supporting your argument.

Good luck though.

P.S. whomever made the over/under of 200 should go out and buy a lottery ticket.

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Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com

I wasn't trying to use my background to support what I was saying. Someone had posted that i had a company and I was showing that I am not employeed by CF or CFE.

I want to see this "study."

http://www.crossfit.com/cf-journal/Austere-Result-Brief_Aug-06.pdf

I believe this is it.

In the past I have done alot of LSD training with some success. The problem arises with the plateaus in performance.

Not sure this makes me a fitness professional, but I have a B.S. in Exercise Science, I'm a certified Athletic Trainer, Masters in Physical Therapy and a level 2 CrossFit Trainer.

I have heard this argument before..."The complex movements used in CrossFit are dangerous." Hmmm...so are you saying that only world class weightlifters should be performing complex lifts such as the Clean & Jerk and Snatch? How about this, when those world class weightlifters were first learning to do those lifts do you think their form was perfect? If their form wasn't perfect, should they have just stopped then and there? No, that's ridiculous. Now, I agree that these are complex lifts and I agree that if you do them incorrectly with a heavy enough weight or even with a moderate weight there is a risk of injury. But that doesn't mean that the "Average Joe" athlete shouldn't learn how to do them and shouldn't incorporate them into their fitness program. I certainly would encourage anyone who is interested in performing olympic lifts to get some training in performing them correctly, but like any other "complex" movement, these things can be self taught.

Let's use your same argument for another complex activity...let's say...swimming. I think we can all agree that to develop a really efficient stroke in swimming requires a lot of fine tuning and refinement of complex movement patterns. When you examine injury rates in competitive swimmers one might come to the conclusion that utilizing swimming as an exercise program for the "lay person" might be, dare we say..."dangerous" and therefore not a good idea. Since a significant percentage of triathletes are God-Awful swimmers (myself included) maybe we shouldn't be doing triathlons at all and should just stick to duathlons to avoid the complex activities. No, again, it's a ridiculous argument.

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Dan Hollingsworth

Nobody grows old by merely living a number of years. People grow old only by deserting their ideals. Years may wrinkle the skin, but to give up interest wrinkles the soul." - Douglas MacArthur

Caveats and qualifications as in.....


Really though,... this is it for me. I'm out.

Good luck.

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Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com

No, they won't. There are numerous examples. Actually, wait, the 2 you listed are examples that what you do does matter a lot, no matter who you are.

"...Looking good with your shirt off and going fast at IM is not the same thing. When I walk around at the practice swims in LP each year I am always amazed at how many totally ripped people there are. Even more amazed a couple days later when so few of them are faster than some kinda fat guys like me... "

Dude, when you don't have much hair left on your head, your only hope is to look better with your shirt off than on....no one really cares if you went 10:40, 11:40, 12:40 of 9:40. It's all about the six pack.

OK back to the 1000 situps per day program...not sure if this qualifies as cross fit...probably too many reps!

Thanks. It would be nice to have somebody explain the powerpoint, but as it is this seems to be a preliminary study with positive results when comparing strength based activities and how to train for them. There wasn't much explanation of methodology to illuminate the general idea of the study, and not much explanation of results and how they compare to the conclusion.

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Ignorance is bliss until they take your bliss away.

If you understand how they worked then you are being intellectually dishonest. Those calculators take your performance in one event and give you times based on your fitness for other events.

You also said:

You may not know or understand the science but there is a scientific explanation for training long distance.

Throwing out numbers is just a red herring. There is no magic number, since it will vary depending on your fitness level, what you are training for and how fast your body recovers. You will not find a quality running coach who will tell you that you will maximize your performance on approximately 25 miles a week. Unless of course you have no base fitness.

You are also incorrect in your statement about athletes. Ask any one of those athletes if they could have achieved their success on less training and I bet they will all say no. Google K. Anders Ericsson, he has a whole body of research which disputes your claims.

Name some who will say that they have improved 12 months+ with CFE and you will silence the vast majority of your doubters.

I am not trying to pick on you, and if you like CFE, keep doing it. The most important thing is that you enjoy the training and you are consistent with it. That works for you and makes it the best for you. However do not confuse that with it being the best physiological program available.

"It just so happens that I don't feel swim/bike/run long is enough. It is all going to come at a cost, and that cost will show up between the ages of 40-50yrs."

In 1969 I was swimming 8000 yds/week. I ran my first ultra marathon in 1975, and haven't stopped running since then. I turn 50 next year. So far so good..

OTOH, I do weight training and plyometrics in the off season..

You know, it's amazing how easily things written on this forum are taken out of context. If you quote somebody, you should make the quote in its entirety. I didn't say the complex movements are dangerous. I said, "I'm not a fan of CF - simply because it seems to involve alot of complex movements that are often done improperly by lay populations." I'm sorry if I offended you by saying I'm not a fan of CF. Everyone has their likes and dislikes right? From what you wrote, it seems we both agree that olympic lifts are complex lifts, and we agree that there is a risk of injury, even with moderate weight.

So what are we disagreeing on? I never said lay populations should never learn the movements. I never implied an exercise shouldn't be done since it involves "complex" movements. The original intention of my first post was to offer a different point of view as to why resistence training SHOULD be incorporated into a training regimen.




My original post....
"So have any fitness professionals chimed in yet? Or will I be the first? I'm not a fan of CF - simply because it seems to involve alot of complex movements that are often done improperly by lay populations. I've been through a few workouts, and it is a definite butt kicker. The big reason resistance training programs should be utilized by athletes, no matter what the sport, is simply due to the scientifically proven role it has in injury prevention. As triathletes, most of our movement is linear, so - we train in one plane (sometimes 2), day in day out. Our bodies adapt, and muscles start misbehaving, eventually leading to overuse symptoms, and even worse, injury. With this in mind, we can also argue that if you're able to train injury free for longer periods of time, overall performance improves. A comprehensive program put together by a certified professional that understands the demands of the sport is crucial.

The exercises Lance was pictured doing earlier are mostly strength or power based exercises; and, most likely only a snippet of his comprehensive program. Just because he's pictured doing these exercises, doesn't mean they're all he does. Do these exercises make him a faster cyclist? In the long run, they do. Outside of having phenomenal genes - the man did break his collarbone, yet is already back on his bike. If he didn't do any kind of resistance training prior to his injury - his post surgical recovery would be taking much longer. "

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"Pain is relative...You'll pass out before you die"

Good god this thread is getting out of control....

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