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Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [rhane] [ In reply to ]
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Well said.
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Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [katzenjammer] [ In reply to ]
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I agree that if CF does not improve a soldiers performance on the field then they need to stop wasting time with it.

Coach Glassman from CF is a smart/shrewd fellow who would not push this on the military if he thought it would fail. As a matter of fact I think I recall him throwing out a cash challenge to any other training protocol in the GPP realm.

Also I'll see if I can dig up a link to a talk he gave about using a CF group and a regular PT in the Canadian Forces as a study. Supposedly the CF group did better on the PT exam than the group that trained specifically for it.
I want to see this "study."

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Ignorance is bliss until they take your bliss away.
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Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [jturnage] [ In reply to ]
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"There's obviously not going to be any convincing here on either side"

That is entirely untrue. Show me the data and I'll happily add CFE to my training. Absence that data, I'm calling the bluff based on the sketchy "evidence" provided since my own N=1 experience and learning base does NOT support the implied claim that I could be a better triathlete/duathlete by incorporating CFE into my training.
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Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [pito00] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, I used that term a little loosely...
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Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [Just Old] [ In reply to ]
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Hey man,
I'm not looking for a fight. First off - I didn't mean to imply that those specific exercises are making him a faster cyclist. I said that "in the long run, they probably do," referring back to what I stated earlier in regards to them being part of a comprehensive program that help prevent him from getting injured. Second, a typical broken collarbone takes roughly 6 to 8 weeks to heal on its own, and 4 if a plate is inserted. Please don't take what I said out of context, and assume I don't know anything. Lance was already back on his bike several days after his surgery.


http://www.roadcycling.com/...mstrong_002674.shtml



"Pain is relative...You'll pass out before you die"
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Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [DtrainVI] [ In reply to ]
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Second, a typical broken collarbone takes roughly 6 to 8 weeks to heal on its own, and 4 if a plate is inserted. Please don't take what I said out of context, and assume I don't know anything. Lance was already back on his bike several days after his surgery.
As is every pro cyclist with a broken collarbone. That's their job. That doesn't mean their collarbones are healed, as they are not. It's only that they can and must continue to train while said collarbone heals. You won't see them racing on the road until the bone is (nearly) healed, unless they are willing to risk more severe injury in case of a crash. The fact that Armstrong was riding soon after his surgery has nothing to do with his prior upper-body fitness.

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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [rhane] [ In reply to ]
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Exactly my point!! A soldier needs to be the quintessential generalist and this CFE program makes perfect sense for them. On the other hand, for a specialist athlete, already on the peaking cycle, CFE would probably detract from the performance more than it would help.
If a 43 year old retired Marine engaging in Triathlon type training, can trounce an active duty 20-something "soldier" who uses CF/CFE (Im going to assume you meant Marine but dont understand the difference), on a PFT, then I suspect its about as useful to the Military as Pilates.

I also suspect that most of you Pro CF people are assuming that everyone on this has or does only engage in TRI or endurance based activities, that we all weight about 145 to 165lbs, and only know our way thru a gym because they have treadmills in the there. ;-)

You MIGHT find that there are individuals here you can readily walk into a gym, knock out deadlifts, squats, dumbell bench presses, etc with bodyweight for 100reps. and then go for a few hours worth of cardio. And most importantly, we can do it again TOMORROW, and the day after that. A CFE practioner would bonk so hard they'd leave a smoking crater............



persequetur vestra metas furiose
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Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [E_moto] [ In reply to ]
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I understand the difference. When you say you can trounce any 20-something solder, in what feats are we talking?
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Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [E_moto] [ In reply to ]
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Dude, dumbbell bench press with body weight...for (hard swallow) 100 reps....repeat 24 hrs later AFTER cardio, and, AND using tri training only.

One word......wow.
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Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [jturnage] [ In reply to ]
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It's not uncommon to have 20 mile or more weeks. We just don't do the 60, 80, 100, etc mile weeks that a lot of long distance runners put in, the logic behind that being the aerobic/oxidative pathways get sufficient-to-maximum training at significantly shorter distances.
This is what is in dispute.

I will stick with running because with McMillan's Calculator and others like it you can determine your performance level and see how well your fitness holds up over distance. Run a 10k race and then a month or two later run a Marathon. If you are unable to sustain your pace your limitation is your running endurance. No amount of squats, dead lifts, push-ups will help you to overcome that. To stress/train your endurance you must train longer.
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Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [Just Old] [ In reply to ]
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So fitness has nothing to do with recuperation.

Just askin' Ken...not being wiseacre.
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Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [katzenjammer] [ In reply to ]
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So fitness has nothing to do with recuperation.

Just askin' Ken...not being wiseacre.

The poster to whom I responded said "the man did break his collarbone, yet is already back on his bike. If he didn't do any kind of resistance training prior to his injury - his post surgical recovery would be taking much longer."

Thus, he was claiming that Armstrong's CF-like regimen was the reason for his short recovery. I assert that is not the case: all pro cyclists, independent of whether they did resistance training (and nearly all pro road cyclist don't), recover with that speed. It may have to do with their levels of fitness, or the fact that it's their job to resume training ASAP, or just HTFU. But it ain't due to their buffness.

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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [E_moto] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Exactly my point!! A soldier needs to be the quintessential generalist and this CFE program makes perfect sense for them. On the other hand, for a specialist athlete, already on the peaking cycle, CFE would probably detract from the performance more than it would help.
If a 43 year old retired Marine engaging in Triathlon type training, can trounce an active duty 20-something "soldier" who uses CF/CFE (Im going to assume you meant Marine but dont understand the difference), on a PFT, then I suspect its about as useful to the Military as Pilates.

I also suspect that most of you Pro CF people are assuming that everyone on this has or does only engage in TRI or endurance based activities, that we all weight about 145 to 165lbs, and only know our way thru a gym because they have treadmills in the there. ;-)

You MIGHT find that there are individuals here you can readily walk into a gym, knock out deadlifts, squats, dumbell bench presses, etc with bodyweight for 100reps. and then go for a few hours worth of cardio. And most importantly, we can do it again TOMORROW, and the day after that. A CFE practioner would bonk so hard they'd leave a smoking crater............
Yup
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Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [pito00] [ In reply to ]
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Whatever they're doing is probably even better for general fitness than your CF program, so maybe the next fad you guys can jump on is joining the circus. ;)
Ha, ha it's funny you mention them. The founder of crossfit is an ex-gymnast and we do incorporate the rings in a lot of workouts, as well as handstand push-ups, etc.

If we're talking about weakness, I believe your CF program makes you a weaker triathlete, so we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
I don't really think we disagree, we are just looking at the equation from two different angles. crossfit helps me compete at the level I'm currently at. But if I intend to become more competitive in triathlons I would need to shift the balance of crossfit and specialized training I do.

We all agree, CF probably makes you very strong and allows you to complete these endurance events, but to say that triathletes don't know how to train to excel in our given field is a little offensive.
Again, at least for myself I think we are just looking at it from different angles. Crossfit gives you additional tools to excel in your sport, while it's the basis of my fitness.

Cheers!
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Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [JDale] [ In reply to ]
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Ya! Ya!! We all jump at the chance to be handsome farmers!!!!


------------------------------
Jack
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Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [warunner] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
It's not uncommon to have 20 mile or more weeks. We just don't do the 60, 80, 100, etc mile weeks that a lot of long distance runners put in, the logic behind that being the aerobic/oxidative pathways get sufficient-to-maximum training at significantly shorter distances.
This is what is in dispute.

I will stick with running because with McMillan's Calculator and others like it you can determine your performance level and see how well your fitness holds up over distance. Run a 10k race and then a month or two later run a Marathon. If you are unable to sustain your pace your limitation is your running endurance. No amount of squats, dead lifts, push-ups will help you to overcome that. To stress/train your endurance you must train longer.
It's fine if you dispute it, I really don't care. The fact of the matter is all those calculators and cookie-cutter runners world programs or whatever where you simply enter a distance you want to run and have it compute a weekly ascending mileage program based off a shorter run are based on little science. They're based on previously tried and true methods that worked, yes, but that doesn't make them scientific. Ok, so the program says this week you need to run a 25 miler on saturday. Why not run 15 or 20 or 100 or 250 miles? Long runs are about building a long base, but what if there are other ways to build that base? What science said 25 miles is the perfect number for this week? It's not scientific, it's just a method that's worked in the past. Well that's all that's going on here, new methods are being tried, and they're being tried successfully. No, Koma (or whatever you tri guys consider elite) is doubtfully going to be won by a CFE trained athlete this year. CF+CFE like any program is going to have to be tweaked for the individual athlete and it could take years to get it right and the program is just too new (no, not the methods, the program itself). But no one can dispute that CF+CFE can make a top level athlete, anyone who believes that is being short sighted. Maybe it's a big secret or something, maybe nobody's really paying attention to how everyone in the top 10 percent trains to get there, I don't know, but I see postings about CFE trained guys and gals hitting top 10s and top 20s all the time. They doubtfully post on ST so you may not see them if this and the tri mags are all you read. Just sayin.
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Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [JDale] [ In reply to ]
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This is two ways of training which people are having success with. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for another. From the start of CFE the guys have known its not for everyone. Fact is most people don't like change, because change requires work. As with any new approach to something there will be an adaptation phase before you see all of the potential results. Its another way of achieving success. The system you follow is a personal decision to be made.
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Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [Kaitlin] [ In reply to ]
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This is two ways of training which people are having success with. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for another. From the start of CFE the guys have known its not for everyone. Fact is most people don't like change, because change requires work. As with any new approach to something there will be an adaptation phase before you see all of the potential results. Its another way of achieving success. The system you follow is a personal decision to be made.

The issue as I see it is this:

If you awknowledge that the program isn't for everyone, and that specificity is needed for an elite level, then on what planet does "Brian" think he can talk about Chris McCormack? That's what we have our panties in a bunch over.

Ok, so maybe Chris can't "squat 450" pounds, but can any of the CFE guys drop a 2:40 Ironman marathon run?

CFE is specificity itself...in being a jack of all trades and master of none.
Last edited by: Jamison: Apr 10, 09 12:42
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Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [Just Old] [ In reply to ]
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It's a good thing you're not Haggard anymore. I must be though; reading this is making me tired. It's probably all the sciency stuff. It gives me a headache. I don't need science to tell me that if I increase the amount of weight I can lift one, or five, or 20 times that my performance in the marathon will improve.... it just makes sense.


Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com
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Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [jturnage] [ In reply to ]
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Based on your response you have little understanding as to how calculators like McMillan or VDOT work, how they were formulated and why they can be useful when considering designing a training program. And yes, call me short sighted but until I see a big sample of athletes qualifying for Kona or pros winning races following exclusively the CF/CFE method then I doubt it can make a top level elite athlete.

Jorge Martinez
Head Coach - Sports Science
E3 Training Solutions, LLC
@CoachJorgeM
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Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [Kaitlin] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
This is two ways of training which people are having success with. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for another. From the start of CFE the guys have known its not for everyone. Fact is most people don't like change, because change requires work. As with any new approach to something there will be an adaptation phase before you see all of the potential results. Its another way of achieving success. The system you follow is a personal decision to be made.

You guys love this catch phrase don't you. People here aren't doubting CFE becuase 'it requires work' (you think IM is easy?). People here are doubting it because there is little evidence it is better than the 'traditional' approach.
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Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [Kaitlin] [ In reply to ]
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I have to say that you do a good job at remaining courteous to everyone. Thanks for that.

Now, when you say things like 'because change requires work', I think you should choose your words a bit more carefully. The folks you're talking to are training a lot, and training hard, so at the very least, do not write something that questions people's work ethics.

Macca is also a poor choice for you. Why? The guy is in his late 30s. It takes 2-3 years to change you say, and that pushes him in the 40s. If you wanted to prove that CFE can have kick ass results in triathlon at the pro level, go talk to Terence Bozzone for instance. Very talented and young.

Your sentence before last says 'it's another way of achieving success'...hmmm...so, are you now saying that both approaches are viable? It's not the same thing as suggesting CFE will yield better results. I do understand why someone would be interested in CFE though. Probably somewhat more proportionate bodies, at least considering the current 'fashion' when it comes to body type.

That said, I live in a city with a couple of gyms offering this type of training, and I see a lot of folks getting injured, often with injuries requiring surgery. Not that our 'standard' training isn't creating a whole bunch of injured folks too, but it usually takes time before that happens whereas with CFE, it seems to happen a lot.

I would also be very cautious when you say that Brian has 'published' research. As many have said already, he has written articles for fitness magazines. It's not the same thing at all. Several of us here published in peer-reviewed journals and it hardly compares...

Anyhow, I do think there is a value to CFE, however, I think the value it provides is not anywhere near as high as what is being suggested. The is a lot of published research ;-) showing that specificity remains a key trait of good training.
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Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [Kaitlin] [ In reply to ]
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You seem like a nice person who believes in what you do/support. That being said, your posts on here are coming across as general, uninformed, and quite frankly, they damage the credibility of you and your company.

There are many people on here that are elite and pro athletes, and have significant knowledge of training, racing, and nutrition.

To suggest to this audience that "most people don't like to change, because that requires work" is asinine. The people on this site put more work into their hobbies than most people put into their job, and that's on top of having a career etc.

I believe that your company and it's philosophy can benefit a great number of people, but suggesting that it is a form of endurance training for long course triathlon is more than a stretch, it's just false. The "other" training methods that you say are a "choice" have been developed based on science, research, and real world performance of athletes in this particular sport.

Your company should pick 20 athletes of similar background, train ten of them with your program and ten with another "accepted" training method and compare the results of their performance increases. I'll bet my house on the "accepted" training group. PM me if you want to take me up on the bet, I'll put it in writing in a legally binding way.
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Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [S McGregor] [ In reply to ]
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It's a good thing you're not Haggard anymore. I must be though; reading this is making me tired. It's probably all the sciency stuff. It gives me a headache. I don't need science to tell me that if I increase the amount of weight I can lift one, or five, or 20 times that my performance in the marathon will improve.... it just makes sense.
Fixed it for you.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Crossfit Endurance article: says endurance athletes don't know how to train [Kaitlin] [ In reply to ]
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Fact is most people don't like change, because change requires work.

I think this line (the one you keep repeating) is the part that comes across the most arrogant. I disagree with it completely, however. People love change—particularly when it comes to their workout programs—and that's where CF's financial success is coming from. Face the facts: if it wasn't new, fresh, exciting and different, why would anyone be doing it?

Lots of people change their workouts up every month or two, looking for the next "craze" that will help them lose the weight, and that's who the customers for these things are. One day, it's CrossFit, the next day it's P90X, and let's not forget pilates, Billy Blaze's boxing workout (what was that called?), buns/abs/thighs/brains of steel, etc. They never stick with something long enough to make the adaptation. Consequently, they don't lose the weight, gain the muscles, etc.

Have you ever heard of someone being "bored" with his or her workout program? People hate monotony, even though it's often the key to getting fit.

People love change, particularly with regard to their workouts.
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