It wasn't me who posted that profile.

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Ross Hoopingarner

Can o' worms asking that question here. Tom or Dan will probably offer better tips than me, but it looks like you might be a bit high in front, or low in back...

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yeah... if you were lower in front, we would have a better view of the clock on the wall.

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jg

Empfield recommends, for the arbitrarily flexible triathlete, that the arm rests should be ~10 cm (-2 cm since it's the start of the season, so say 8 cm) below your seat, and they look more or less even in the picture. [The formula is 0.005 D*D - 0.2 D - 1.5 +/- 1.5, where D is the distance from the center of the bottom bracket to the center of the top of your seat in cm.]

If you connect your shoulder and hip with a straight line, it should be perpendicular to a line that connects your hip to the pedal spindle. Right now, your angle is larger than 90 degrees. If you lowered the front end, making your back closer to horizontal, you would come much closer to 90 degrees and the bike fit suggested on the main Slowtwitch page. Rough estimates from the photo make it look like you might hit the "biomechanical sweet spot" by lowering the front closer to 4 cm; as you get more aggressive, you might have to fool around with seat position too.

I don't pretend to be any good at this fitting stuff, I've just read plenty of articles and used the digital camera to tweak my own bike set up.

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Meg.

'but it looks like you might be a bit high in front, or low in back... '

I've tried lower in front, but it closes my hip angle to the point where I develop psoas issues and according to my PowerTap I can't produce the same wattage output at similar HR levels.

This is the most comfortable position on this bike, the seat angle is ~79 deg.

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Ross Hoopingarner

Thanks Meg, that's the info I was looking for. I'll try to drop the front a bit. I have been recovering from lower back pain causes by an overtrained psoas so I need to take it easy as I get more flexible. As you can see I have left myself a lot of room to move down by not cutting my forks yet.

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Ross Hoopingarner

Man. Who sold you that bike without a proper fitting? For that kind of coin they should have given you a full fit kit... Gerard, Tom and a lot of the real advocates for fitting on this site will be disappointed.

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FWIW - I did receive a proper fitting and I continue to work with my LSB (who just so happens to be a friend and peer of Dan) to achieve optimal setup, for FREE!

From your original post:

"Can o' worms asking that question here."

Looks like your really trying hard to open that can. I was unaware that Marlins and Primates were so closely related.

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Ross Hoopingarner

Hard to judge from a photo, but the first thing I notice is your stem. Too much upward rake angle raising you in the front. If you want to ride aero/aggressive, then you need something that forms a more parallel angle with the ground such as a 74(-16) to lower your bars. Even removing the spacers, you will be still be quite high with that stem, at least compared to the stems on my TCR and P2K.

Is your seat flipped forward or back. It looks back in the 74 angle. but I can't tell from the photo. Flip it forward for the steeper angle more aggressive 77-78 position. This is a P3, not a road bike.

In theory, your arm/forearm should form about a 90-110 angle. Your ear lobe should plumbline approx. your elbow joint. Can't measure this off your photo since I can't find my protractor.

Assuming that your frame size is correct, your seat ht. measured form the BB to the top of the seat would be as a good starting point(LeMond) your inseam x .883. On a steeper angle this height should be increased a bit. I think you could be a bit low on the seat measurment judging by your femur/fib-tib angle, but I don't have a protractor handy to measure this.

The good thing that I do notice is that you get a nice 90 degree with arm/trunk and trunk/femur

This position looks quite relaxed and non aggressive which is what you might want on an IM, but not for a sprint. Also a lot depends on your flexibility. Many people just can't be comfortable in an aggressive position, if so this could be optimum for you. It could also be where you get max power. A friend of mine with a P2K rides a 74/75 position that looks similiar to yours because when measured on a power meter he produced considerably more wattage in the less aggressive position than at 78.

Hard to tell and I don't claim to be an expert. Sooner or later Tom Demerly will show up. He's the guy you want to talk to.

Aaah... the profile picture of fit. Sorry but...Even if you get a good posted reply, your only getting less than half the complete story. The problem with profile pics is they don't show...:

1) ...dynamic movement with the shown position. Perfect angles and placement doesn't make for a good position while in motion.

2) ...front views while your in motion tells as much of a fitting story as a profile shot.

Unfortunately, (IMHO) side pictures are providing much less than half an answer.

FWIW Joe Moya

This may be a good idea...a place to post position pictures for critique. As Joe states, this, at best, is only 1/2 the story but it may get some that much closer to completing the story.

Oh, what the heck, I'll post one too. I feel fast and comfortable in this position:

(How do I paste a picture??)
Ok, let me have it!

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

This is a really good article.

http://www.bikesportmichigan.com/bikes/karma.shtml

-Looks very "powerful" but a tad high perhaps. Good Compu-trainer position probably. Nice bike. Tough to say from a photo, but I'd wager you're pretty powerful on the bike. Damn, look at those legs. Seriously, doesn't look too bad but may not be perfest. So hard to tell from just a photo.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Nice bike, first of all.

Second, I have noticed fromm your replies that you're having tightness and other maladies. I would recommend a programme with a physical therapist to help iron out issues of flexibility and core strength. Then, I would recommend a Look Ergostem and try to get lower until you progress (in your flexibility and core strength programme) enough to attain a lower position. You would then get the proper length stem from the measurements from your optimal position attained by the Look Ergostem. This is what the (unofficial) bunnyman institute would recommend if you were to see one of us.

If you talk to your doctor about flexibility issues, you could get the PT sessions on your insurance.

Hard to judge from a photo, but the first thing I notice is your stem. Too much upward rake angle raising you in the front. If you want to ride aero/aggressive, then you need something that forms a more parallel angle with the ground such as a 74(-16) to lower your bars. Even removing the spacers, you will be still be quite high with that stem, at least compared to the stems on my TCR and P2K.

'Is your seat flipped forward or back.'

Forward, that's about 78-79 deg. I think because my arse and thigh are big it makes it look like I am slacking.



'In theory, your arm/forearm should form about a 90-110 angle.'

Yeah, but when the pads come back i can't stand without hitting them.


" your inseam x .883."

I would image I should measure the inseam with my cycle shoes on?



"This position looks quite relaxed and non aggressive which is what you might want on an IM"

I AM going IM this year but I still would like to be a bit more aggresive.


Thanks for the input.

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Ross Hoopingarner

"Damn, look at those legs."

Stop Tom, you're making me blush

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Ross Hoopingarner

"I would recommend a programme with a physical therapist to help iron out issues of flexibility and core strength."

Currently, doing that. This is an aggressive position compared to where i was about 3 months ago.

"Look Ergostem"

Good idea

"If you talk to your doctor about flexibility issues, you could get the PT sessions on your insurance."

Yep, got it covered, as well as my chiro and massage therapist, they all work in the same building.

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Ross Hoopingarner

Good. I am glad that you're pursuing these avenues in helping you get to a better position. Many don't think of these things in order to pursue a better position; they only get into the one that's most powerful and comfortable at the time. I have been where you are right now, as I was in a car accident in Oct of 2000. I am now getting into a low, aggressive position. It takes a long while in some cases.

I just like the Look Ergo stems so that you don't end up with fifty stems of varying length and pitch. They are just too bloody heavy for racing. But they are a great tool in doing what you're doing right now.

Good luck on your ongoing recovery.

Ouch. I resent that. Actually, I was just giving my layman opinion of what looked 'wrong' with your set-up compared to some of the pro set-ups that people have mentioned look 'right' on this and other forums. I didn't offer science because I'm not an expert, just a guy on the forum. I was just curious if you were coming here for a fitting rather than working with your LBS, because that would probably be your best option. If you're working with your LBS, great.Can 'o' worms on this forum is usually a good thing, because it leads to good discussion. Look at the Frank Day-Coggan thread in the dying days of the last forum.

If you're comfortable and generating the watts, info you did not include in your first post, then the position must be working for you. Good on ya, and good season.

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" your inseam x .883."

"I would image I should measure the inseam with my cycle shoes on? "

This method developed by Greg LeMond is described on varous web sites. In each case it shows the cyclist being measured in their sock feet without the shoes.
This is a good starting point to find your theoretical seat height. From here it can be fine tuned. It should be measured from the center of the bottom braket to the top of the seat. This formula is probably designed with a 73.5 degree road bike in mind. With a steep angle you would probably increase this measurement slightly.

As far as I understand your seat hight is your seat height and is a function of how long your legs are...therefore should not change with the seat tube angle.

OK, that makes sense. I tried the sock method and it gave me 80cm, that would be 3cm lower than I am right now. I think to start my progression to a more aggressive setup I will do the following:

1) Lower spacers by 1cm

2) Increase seat height by .5cm

3) Look into a Look Ergo Stem to help adjust cockpit distance as I fiddle with other things.

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Ross Hoopingarner

"As far as I understand your seat hight is your seat height and is a function of how long your legs are...therefore should not change with the seat tube angle"

I read once that there is actually a formula for this. I think(but can't fully remember) that it could be a 2:1 ratio. Shift your seat forward 2 cm and raise it one cm. The M2 Racer Power Module seat shifter that I just purchased has a built in compensation that as the seat is shifted forward the seat is also raised slightly and vice versa. I don't know what ratio it uses.

Anyone have any insight into this??