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Re: Crit racing tips needed [Karl.n] [ In reply to ]
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zedzded wrote:

There seemed to be a lot of aggression coming from people who were doing nothing but sit behind others..


Frustration coming from people behind is generally just a verbal showcase for their own frustration at their inability to do anything themselves.

I've heard a good number of people make it on to the tail end of a break and SCREAM for the people at the front to ride harder while they're coughing up a lung... it's just because they can't do it themselves but desperately want to be in the break. A few times I'd just pull off and stare at them and maybe make a snide comment about them doing it themselves, but eventually came to realize that was just a waste of time for all involved.

In the end it's best to ignore them because they may recover a bit and be able to help later on. People can do and say silly things when they're pumped full of hydrogen ions and in severe oxygen debt.
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Re: Crit racing tips needed [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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zedzded wrote:
The aim before the race was to work as a 4, that never happened, it requires more planning and coordination I guess. 2 of us were near the front, 2 near the back. I think if we'd had a plan on say lap 5 we all go for it, it could have worked.

Team tactics is a whole lot more than four guys saying "let's all go now". Sure, you can get a team train going, and when I was bike racing I was first lead-out man (strong TT'er, no top end explosion though) and we took a lot of wins using a three-man train with two or three to go. But if you're talking about trying a four man break of all one team... Not gonna happen. In any cat. A solo with three blocking has a much better chance of success.

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Re: Crit racing tips needed [brider] [ In reply to ]
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brider wrote:
zedzded wrote:

The aim before the race was to work as a 4, that never happened, it requires more planning and coordination I guess. 2 of us were near the front, 2 near the back. I think if we'd had a plan on say lap 5 we all go for it, it could have worked.


Team tactics is a whole lot more than four guys saying "let's all go now". Sure, you can get a team train going, and when I was bike racing I was first lead-out man (strong TT'er, no top end explosion though) and we took a lot of wins using a three-man train with two or three to go. But if you're talking about trying a four man break of all one team... Not gonna happen. In any cat. A solo with three blocking has a much better chance of success.

This...

A better team tactic would be to try and put 1 or 2 in a break and then monitor the pack with the remainder... Any bridge attempt after that, you could then send a rider with them (with the instructions to do no work, until the junction is made (and then usually it's straight to the front and then give it gas...)... you shouldn't be towing people up to the break, but you should accept the free ride... the tactic discourages people trying to cross the gap, because they get pissed dragging dead weight with them, or if they do cross the gap, you then have better numbers). That combined with chasing down any dangerous bridge attempts from the pack, will give you your best chance... People will chase down a TTT, but if you execute a tactical race smartly (bonus points if you make sure that the initial break has any of the other strong teams in your race represented, so they are less likely to organize a proper chase), there's not much that they can do. I've put 4 guys in a break of 11(2 out of 7 in the original, and then two of us hitched rides across as outlined above), but there wasn't enough motivation, so the gap was rapidly falling. A group of 4 of us ended up re-attacking the break (including me and a teammate and two other riders). We stuck it out for a good while, but got caught in the last few laps (one rider stopped working too soon to back themselves in a sprint, rather than making sure we got to a sprint...).
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Re: Crit racing tips needed [RONDAL] [ In reply to ]
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As I wrote back on page 2, crits (and racing in general) are often about doing the LEAST amount of work possible for the highest placing possible. If I have my way when racing, you won't see or hear from me until 200m to go. If you're going to go to the front and do work, you better make sure that you are making others do just as much work or more, otherwise you won't be a factor at the end. If you want a pure show of fitness go race TT's. Otherwise tactics are as important as fitness.


If you are a triathlete contemplating road racing, criteriums included - read this over about 10-times and commit it to memory.

For many triathletes this is VERY hard to get their head around, but consider this, the typical Tour de France winner, outside of time-trials, in three weeks of road racing spends in total only about 15 - 20 minutes, on the front!! That's it.

Yes you need great fitness to be a bike racer, but it's all about keeping as much of that in reserve as you can, and then at the right movement (and that moment will be different in almost every race you do), committing FULLY to what you have. It's also important to note that this will fail spectacularly more times than it will be "successful" - and that's true right on through the ranks from Cat-5's to Pros! It's a merciless, ruthless sport!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Crit racing tips needed [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:
For many triathletes this is VERY hard to get their head around, but consider this, the typical Tour de France winner, outside of time-trials, in three weeks of road racing spends in total only about 15 - 20 minutes, on the front!! That's it.

Yes, this is a HUGE lesson that triathletes need to get through in the transition to becoming a bike racer -- I had to do it myself. You will (almost) never be able to "out strong" the pack.

Quote:
Yes you need great fitness to be a bike racer, but it's all about keeping as much of that in reserve as you can, and then at the right moment (and that moment will be different in almost every race you do), committing FULLY to what you have. It's also important to note that this will fail spectacularly more times than it will be "successful" - and that's true right on through the ranks from Cat-5's to Pros! It's a merciless, ruthless sport!

This ^^^. Making a break happen (and I was famous for taking flyers in road races) is a 100% commitment. If you're lucky you might be able to recover enough to try it again (well) after being caught. Yes, it will fail more often than not, but it's a whole lot of painful fun when it does succeed.

But it also takes 100% commitment of team mates to help shut down the pack, or risk their own placing to help the success of the break.

Likewise, that first lead out guy (my role when it came to pack finishes) was a 100% commitment to get my guys delivered to the front at the right time, only to finish well outside the placings (usually heaving my lungs out as I coasted across the line near the back of the pack).

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Re: Crit racing tips needed [Super D] [ In reply to ]
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Super D wrote:

One of the things I learned was that I needed some rationale for when to start a sprint or other hard effort, regardless of what other people were doing, just based on my own capabilities. I needed to have some strategy, not just ride reacting to what everyone else was doing and letting others dictate my race. This is where training with power became a very useful learning tool and the info fueled race strategy. If you can train with power, you'll learn a lot about yourself, and it can provide some very helpful foundation for your race plan.

I would very much agree that you need some type of rationale for when to start a sprint or other hard effort.

I would disagree that rationale is "regardless of what other people were doing" or "not just ride reacting to what everyone else was doing"

Road racing is not about how much effort you put out, or how fast you finish the race. It's about finishing ahead of other people...best case, ahead of everyone. To accomplish that, you very much have to react to what everyone else is doing, and plan your moves accordingly to create the best opportunity for a gap. Riding a road race while monitoring your power and planning strategy around power is probably the worst way to do it.

Training with power helps build your fitness, and can help you train for certain moments on your own when you don't have a fast group ride available to you. But what you actually do in a race, at that moment in time, usually has nothing to do with a power strategy. You build that type of instinct by racing more often. Riding your local world's group ride on a regular basis.

I've made winning moves that are totally unconventional. Starting my sprint from around 30 seconds out instead of my bread and butter of about 12 seconds where I have the most pop in my power curve. It just depends on how any move will translate to creating a gap and situational odds of how the field will react. Very rarely will you know exactly how any move you make will turn out. A lot depends on luck as well. But the starting point of any decision to make a move always has to do with how the others around you are currently riding and where you are in relation to them...in terms of position, fitness, and fatigue levels.
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Re: Crit racing tips needed [brider] [ In reply to ]
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This ^^^. Making a break happen (and I was famous for taking flyers in road races) is a 100% commitment. If you're lucky you might be able to recover enough to try it again (well) after being caught. Yes, it will fail more often than not, but it's a whole lot of painful fun when it does succeed.


I was in a local Master's Road Race a number of years ago, I happened to be at the front and one of the stronger local Master's Riders (a former Canadian Master's Champion), made a jump and I just went with him. We suddenly had a 50m and growing lead. When the lead got out to about 100+m, he eased off a bit and dropped back beside me, and said to me we need to go all-in for about 5 min. I said, Sure, and I'll do what I can. We did this, with me taking much shorter pulls, but we put the field out-of site and then with me ready to explode we eased off a bit, and rode tempo from that point over the final 10Km to the finish line where I was completely beaten in the sprint to the line but happy and grateful for finishing in 2nd place - and beating many guys in the main field who were much stronger than me . . . that's road racing! :)


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Crit racing tips needed [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Yep; that's the beauty of road racing. The whole poker on wheels analogy is apt, not only b/c of the split second decisions on risks to take but also the issue of resource management
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Re: Crit racing tips needed [Jason N] [ In reply to ]
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Riding a road race while monitoring your power and planning strategy around power is probably the worst way to do it.


Agreed - again something that newbies tend to get caught up in. If it's all-in, and you are at the back of the group, or a larger breakaway group, forget about power, heart-rate, numbers or anything - you have one goal, no matter what, stay on that back wheel, and not get dropped. Why - because if it's at the back of the main group, your day is done right there! :)


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Last edited by: Fleck: Feb 13, 18 10:30
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Re: Crit racing tips needed [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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I've got fairly limited road racing experience, but have found that the best results are when the racing is really easy except that hard parts. The hard parts are really f'ing hard.

It takes a very fit dude to run away from the pack in the 5s, we are dum and chase anything...

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Re: Crit racing tips needed [Jason N] [ In reply to ]
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Jason N wrote:
Super D wrote:


One of the things I learned was that I needed some rationale for when to start a sprint or other hard effort, regardless of what other people were doing, just based on my own capabilities. I needed to have some strategy, not just ride reacting to what everyone else was doing and letting others dictate my race. This is where training with power became a very useful learning tool and the info fueled race strategy. If you can train with power, you'll learn a lot about yourself, and it can provide some very helpful foundation for your race plan.


I would very much agree that you need some type of rationale for when to start a sprint or other hard effort.

I would disagree that rationale is "regardless of what other people were doing" or "not just ride reacting to what everyone else was doing"

Road racing is not about how much effort you put out, or how fast you finish the race. It's about finishing ahead of other people...best case, ahead of everyone. To accomplish that, you very much have to react to what everyone else is doing, and plan your moves accordingly to create the best opportunity for a gap. Riding a road race while monitoring your power and planning strategy around power is probably the worst way to do it.

Training with power helps build your fitness, and can help you train for certain moments on your own when you don't have a fast group ride available to you. But what you actually do in a race, at that moment in time, usually has nothing to do with a power strategy. You build that type of instinct by racing more often. Riding your local world's group ride on a regular basis.

I've made winning moves that are totally unconventional. Starting my sprint from around 30 seconds out instead of my bread and butter of about 12 seconds where I have the most pop in my power curve. It just depends on how any move will translate to creating a gap and situational odds of how the field will react. Very rarely will you know exactly how any move you make will turn out. A lot depends on luck as well. But the starting point of any decision to make a move always has to do with how the others around you are currently riding and where you are in relation to them...in terms of position, fitness, and fatigue levels.



I did a really poor job of sharing my thought, sorry about that. I suck at brevity sometimes, losing context. In the words of Steve Martin, “Some people have a way with words, and others, oh…not have way.” :D






I didn't mean to imply that racing while monitoring power is the path to success, nor that racing with power is more important than race craft, team work, racing instincts or peloton acumen developed through experience, and understand that luck is a factor as well as other variables. I shared that power was a useful learning tool and the info fueled race strategy (for me), and it can provide some very helpful foundation for race planning. That was the core of what I was trying to convey.

I used to race cars and endurance go-karts in a previous life prior to cycling, and understanding the power, gearing, handling, braking and other physical capacities of the vehicle through practice, combined with instincts, traffic management, aerodynamics and drafting, teamwork if that was a factor, recognizing temperament, habits and skills of other racers, course conditions, tires, spring rates and many other factors all go into the mix of race strategy (and that strategy can start pre-race and then evolves and is re-shaped as the race unfolds). Now as a relative newbie in bike racing, I see related elements; some factors are mechanical or physical capacities, and those are taken into account when strategizing pre- and during the race, and then getting into a good flow using instinct and drawing upon experience, and adding some calculated opportunistic risks taken at speed without pre-planning are all part of the moving chess game (which is great fun!). I believe this is all more or less in the mix of what you're describing. You're very experienced in bike racing and have much to draw upon instinctively; I’m not, so I’ve got eyes wide open to learn new things on the fly, and am continually building fundamental understanding and adding to the small but developing experience log. There’s no substitute for experience, as they say.

For me, understanding power capacities helps as one of many factors in formulating a basic strategy, so I'm working a plan A or a plan B, instead of just reacting to someone else's actions and not understanding the strengths I may be able to exploit, why, where and when during the race. I personally don't operate well without some sort of a plan, or plans, based on fundamental strategy. This doesn't mean plans can always turn out, nor that they can be perfect or even close to what was originally intended before the race. They're just a foundation to work with and learn from during (and after) the race, experiments, and sometimes the tactics in the experiment can lead to a good position, and maybe even a good result.

I made a race plan for myself a couple of years ago including lots of factors, course analysis, and positioning strategy to leverage power at the end—if that position could be attained. I worked my plan during the race, made continual adjustments along the way, and when it somehow led to the position I was wanting as we headed toward the last hill before the finish, I had the confidence to hit the gas a certain distance out, knowing I could hold power (because I’d learned about it with my power meter and training previously). I think I might've glanced at power on the Garmin maybe twice during the race, no more. There were so many factors, traffic management, drafting, luck, some teamwork, managing a bully who kept putting his shoulder into me pushing me toward the outside of hairpins, resting in the pack when I needed to save energy, responding to fake attacks hidden from others who wanted to see who was a threat, covering gaps, helping others who’d helped me, etc. In the end, I started my sprint at a much different distance out than in any race before, influenced by what I’d learned about power in training. Without getting in the position to do it, there would’ve been no way to execute. Without understanding capacity for power and duration, I wouldn’t have known where and when to exploit it. Power was just part of the mix that went into pre-race planning, and eventually led to a good race day.
Last edited by: Super D: Feb 13, 18 11:08
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Re: Crit racing tips needed [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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I pay a little bit of attention to it but mostly collect it for looking at after the fact.

Couple times that I've deliberately used it (debatable whether its a good idea) to inform decisions. Faux tempo on a climb (ie, getting on the front for a climb and riding as hard as I want to for the climb (gives some space to fall back if it does start surging, and if it's not an obviously critical climb sometimes the climbers just sit in). Another is just keeping a lap NP going for the race; kinda useful on the local weekly circuit race. The NP for the race is usually within a fairly small range (280ish) and gives me a bit of an (somewhat) objective measure of how hard the race has been. Not hugely useful, but sometimes nice to know.


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Re: Crit racing tips needed [Super D] [ In reply to ]
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You mentioned instincts - I think at the super-elite level a lot of comes down to that in bike racing

A great video to watch is the famous "missing kilometers" from the 2017 UCI World Road Race Championships where Peter Sagan, won a third World Road Race Championships in a row.

https://www.youtube.com/...S2rw1G95u8&t=16s

The ebbing and flowing if the racing over the final 4km - the various attacks and counter attacks. Sagan, picks one wheel different than he did, or choose to chase down or not chase down, one little micro-break, and he does not win the race. In the moment, after 5 1/2 hours of hard racing, and now well over the red-line, what else is driving your decision making other than a gut call and some instincts - so many variables with bike road racing. It's a bit mind boggling. It's amazing that guys like Sagan are as consistently up there and a factor.

Sure he took some chances and had some luck, but as they say, you have to make your own luck, and he had to be at the right place at the right time, several times to take advantage of all this


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Crit racing tips needed [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:
You mentioned instincts - I think at the super-elite level a lot of comes down to that in bike racing

A great video to watch is the famous "missing kilometers" from the 2017 UCI World Road Race Championships where Peter Sagan, won a third World Road Race Championships in a row.

https://www.youtube.com/...S2rw1G95u8&t=16s

The ebbing and flowing if the racing over the final 4km - the various attacks and counter attacks. Sagan, picks one wheel different than he did, or choose to chase down or not chase down, one little micro-break, and he does not win the race. In the moment, after 5 1/2 hours of hard racing, and now well over the red-line, what else is driving your decision making other than a gut call and some instincts - so many variables with bike road racing. It's a bit mind boggling. It's amazing that guys like Sagan are as consistently up there and a factor.

Sure he took some chances and had some luck, but as they say, you have to make your own luck, and he had to be at the right place at the right time, several times to take advantage of all this

I think you're talking to me, not positive, I did mention instincts a few times. :)

I've been following Sagan for several years. You're right, at that level, instincts are a very large factor, and I think his biggest asset. He's not the strongest guy in the peloton (although, being an accomplished sprinter, the guy can still hang with climbers on breaks in the mountain stages, holy heck is that amazing to see!), but he is so tuned in to his instincts that he can surf wheels and competing teams know it's coming, but still they cannot stop him. He's just that good, moves, reacts and anticipates that smoothly, quickly, precisely, and from the aerial shots, it's like a genius ballet of finesse bike handling to behold. Reminds me of watching Gille Villeneuve in F1 as a child. Riding on the ragged edge, passing so tight to get the win, but smearing the moves together like liquid and making it look easy. Of course Villeneuve banged wheels, a bit more rough than Sagan, thank goodness. :D

I took my son to see his second pro bike race here in San Diego at the Tour of CA (the first was years previous here, when Lance was still a pro and hadn't yet ruined his legacy), and we were 20 yards from the finish of stage 1. Sagan made his move right in front of us after surfing wheels up that final straight. So thrilling to see him work through traffic in-person, with everyone banging loudly on the banners and yelling at the top of our lungs. What a day.
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Re: Crit racing tips needed [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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People that can read and react to races like that are invaluable to teams... Say what you will about Chris Horner, but if you look back to his stint on the Continental Circuit between his stints over in Europe, he was always in the action, even on flat races where he had no business being in the action, because he could read a race... In fact several teams would have a dedicated role for one rider to watch Horner...

As a cheap substitute, you get some of the strong teams trying to manhandle the races, which in some cases they can pull off, but run into trouble as soon as a race becomes less organized. USPS and Sky race very much this way, but one guy crashing out, and all of a sudden, the rest of their team save for one rider miss the time cut... Contrast that to QuickStep in the classics, even if they don't always win, they are always there, and with a number of riders... Not from manhandling the races, but from thinking 3 moves ahead to ensure that they have chips in play when the race hits the fan...

Sagan is a master at reading the races and executing, which is even more impressive, given the limited support that he gets from his team.

But you only develop that skill from experience, which includes making a lot of mistakes... As I noted earlier in this thread, the key to winning bike races is knowing how good you're not, more so than knowing how good you are... You can avoid making a lot of those wasteful efforts by honestly reflecting on the possibility, and whether you are actually good enough to pull it off...
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Re: Crit racing tips needed [Trauma] [ In reply to ]
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Trauma wrote:
People that can read and react to races like that are invaluable to teams... Say what you will about Chris Horner, but if you look back to his stint on the Continental Circuit between his stints over in Europe, he was always in the action, even on flat races where he had no business being in the action, because he could read a race... In fact several teams would have a dedicated role for one rider to watch Horner...

As a cheap substitute, you get some of the strong teams trying to manhandle the races, which in some cases they can pull off, but run into trouble as soon as a race becomes less organized. USPS and Sky race very much this way, but one guy crashing out, and all of a sudden, the rest of their team save for one rider miss the time cut... Contrast that to QuickStep in the classics, even if they don't always win, they are always there, and with a number of riders... Not from manhandling the races, but from thinking 3 moves ahead to ensure that they have chips in play when the race hits the fan...

Sagan is a master at reading the races and executing, which is even more impressive, given the limited support that he gets from his team.

But you only develop that skill from experience, which includes making a lot of mistakes... As I noted earlier in this thread, the key to winning bike races is knowing how good you're not, more so than knowing how good you are... You can avoid making a lot of those wasteful efforts by honestly reflecting on the possibility, and whether you are actually good enough to pull it off...

Very good point. this is important, b/c it drives home the notion that matches should be conserved and not wastefully spent. Side blasting, riding on the windward side, not being in a good position at choke points (including leading up to a hill or a windy section), etc all cost energy, and they will all reduce the size of the match when one really needs to throw down.
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Re: Crit racing tips needed [Alaric83] [ In reply to ]
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Definitely agree with what you do and basically do the same for crits. My Garmin screen only has elapsed time, heart rate, and three second average power. If I'm looking down at my computer its more than likely to glance at the time to see where we're at in the crit. The heart rate and power are there for if I happen to make the break so I can control myself a little bit. Road racing is a bit different. I have time, heart rate, three second power, distance, and gearing (yeah I know its odd, but I've become accustomed to knowing it). Then I have a secondary screen that has a five mile lap showing: lap time, lap average speed, heart rate, and lap distance. Pretty minimal in my mind because as Steve mentions in the post below yours is that racing seems to be more about instincts and knowing when to go and who to go with and more importantly not to go with.
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Re: Crit racing tips needed [Super D] [ In reply to ]
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Not to mention having the most insane bike handling skills and nose for finish line... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXQWRe6ru8g ***

**Don't try this in your local crit
Last edited by: Carl Spackler: Feb 14, 18 12:12
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Re: Crit racing tips needed [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
Trauma wrote:
People that can read and react to races like that are invaluable to teams... Say what you will about Chris Horner, but if you look back to his stint on the Continental Circuit between his stints over in Europe, he was always in the action, even on flat races where he had no business being in the action, because he could read a race... In fact several teams would have a dedicated role for one rider to watch Horner... .

Can't stand the guy, but I will admit to having admired watching him at Clarendon 2(?) years ago and it was a clinic on positioning and smooth riding. He wasn't in the break or going to win it, but great pack riding.
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Re: Crit racing tips needed [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:
Yes you need great fitness to be a bike racer, but it's all about keeping as much of that in reserve as you can, and then at the right movement (and that moment will be different in almost every race you do), committing FULLY to what you have. It's also important to note that this will fail spectacularly more times than it will be "successful" - and that's true right on through the ranks from Cat-5's to Pros! It's a merciless, ruthless sport!

Bolded for importance. If you've never had to limp it home in the granny gears on a training ride, or gotten dropped on a group ride........probably not trying hard enough.

I don't think some people train or ride at that bleeding edge very often or at all. I say some, because I don't know how many.

I've seen better all out efforts on some no-drop brewery group rides from people on city bikes than I've seen on the "drop and regroup" hills on an A-group ride.

I've popped a few times on a ride alone or with a group. It'll probably happen again soon as I move up to some A+ rides. So long as I have my map to get home. Lol.
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Re: Crit racing tips needed [McNulty] [ In reply to ]
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McNulty wrote:

Can't stand the guy, but I will admit to having admired watching him at Clarendon 2(?) years ago and it was a clinic on positioning and smooth riding. He wasn't in the break or going to win it, but great pack riding.


Humility in bike handling is important to advancing crit skills. I remember back when I thought I was a good bike handler, and now I know I sucked. And still suck, relative to the really good ones. Now I understand that there's just a level I'll never reach. I was wheel-sucking in a P12 crit with some really good riders, heading for the field sprint, and there are guys who just seemingly defy physics. I knew my place, and conceded position to those who understand how to operate at that level. Seeing gaps before they open, winnowing through, making just enough contact to show aggression and intent, but not enough to put anyone competent in harm's way. I tap out at some point. Put me in nice masters race, thanks.
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