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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [marting] [ In reply to ]
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NATE - Please get TR to control KICKR via External Power Meter ASAP, I've tried PP and I do think it's a good product but TR is my preference. I've given up on Wahoo to do anything useful, GET IT DONE!
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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How much is the torque transducer or whatever the Kickr uses to measure power? That's really the only expense you'll be eliminating.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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DC: Even though I've had issues with power accuracy on my Kickr, I have no issues with the accuracy of your review of the Kickr. Your reviews are solid and you've more than demonstrated that your integrity is, as well. I appreciate that you don't come here to tell us that we're wrong, but just to respond to people that call your review out.

This whole thing is perplexing. I own an SRM, a Stages, a Kickr and the Kickr calibration kit. I've had one Kickr sent back for recalibration and then had it replaced with another Kickr.

My SRM and Stages reasonably match. My ftp based on the SRM and Stages match the calculated performance compared to my actual performance. My SRM has been factory calibrated. I zero-out before every ride. I do proper warm ups and spindowns on my Kickr. I've calibrated it. And yet every Kickr I've had, after every type of calibration is always 25-30 average watts higher than my SRM or Stages.

Others here report the same. This PROVES nothing, but statistically, it may be enough to suggest that further tests might be revealing. I'm betting there are users here that would pack up their Kickrs and send them to you for you to test. Further, perhaps you could anonymously order a couple of Kickrs from different vendors and test those.

Of course, that's a big financial and time burden on your end and it's not your job necessarily to do quality control for manufacturers. Perhaps, too, you consider our results to most likely be due to user error or faulty power meters. Whatever your opinion or further actions on the matter, I trust trust that they'll be impartial and practical.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Krispy2014] [ In reply to ]
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Krispy2014 wrote:
DC: Even though I've had issues with power accuracy on my Kickr, I have no issues with the accuracy of your review of the Kickr. Your reviews are solid and you've more than demonstrated that your integrity is, as well. I appreciate that you don't come here to tell us that we're wrong, but just to respond to people that call your review out.

This whole thing is perplexing. I own an SRM, a Stages, a Kickr and the Kickr calibration kit. I've had one Kickr sent back for recalibration and then had it replaced with another Kickr.

My SRM and Stages reasonably match. My ftp based on the SRM and Stages match the calculated performance compared to my actual performance. My SRM has been factory calibrated. I zero-out before every ride. I do proper warm ups and spindowns on my Kickr. I've calibrated it. And yet every Kickr I've had, after every type of calibration is always 25-30 average watts higher than my SRM or Stages.

Others here report the same. This PROVES nothing, but statistically, it may be enough to suggest that further tests might be revealing. I'm betting there are users here that would pack up their Kickrs and send them to you for you to test. Further, perhaps you could anonymously order a couple of Kickrs from different vendors and test those.

Of course, that's a big financial and time burden on your end and it's not your job necessarily to do quality control for manufacturers. Perhaps, too, you consider our results to most likely be due to user error or faulty power meters. Whatever your opinion or further actions on the matter, I trust trust that they'll be impartial and practical.

Where is that like button.

+1
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [jmuise] [ In reply to ]
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jmuise wrote:
NATE - Please get TR to control KICKR via External Power Meter ASAP, I've tried PP and I do think it's a good product but TR is my preference. I've given up on Wahoo to do anything useful, GET IT DONE!

If I may rephrase that slightly...

NATE - Please get TR to control KICKR via External Power Meter ASAP, I've tried PP and I do think it's a good product but TR is my preference. I've given up on Wahoo to do anything useful, so we would be really pleased if you're able to address the problem in TR! Thank-you.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [marting] [ In reply to ]
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marting wrote:
jmuise wrote:
NATE - Please get TR to control KICKR via External Power Meter ASAP, I've tried PP and I do think it's a good product but TR is my preference. I've given up on Wahoo to do anything useful, GET IT DONE!


If I may rephrase that slightly...

NATE - Please get TR to control KICKR via External Power Meter ASAP, I've tried PP and I do think it's a good product but TR is my preference. I've given up on Wahoo to do anything useful, so we would be really pleased if you're able to address the problem in TR! Thank-you.

You may
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [marting] [ In reply to ]
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marting - IMHO I don't believe that the new Wahoo firmware update control your kickr by powermeter works at all. I think that if you feel like it does and its "usable", it is basically a coincidence (like all of the other fixes that have been suggested). If it "works", why has Wahoo not said anything? Why has TR not said that it does? Are they, Wahoo, trying to get there, looks like it but at this point they are not there. I am also reluctant to tell someone new that yes it does when clearly it does not for many people and it seems like no one kickr is exactly like or has the same problems as the next one. I am also reluctant to tell someone it works and lead them down the path of utter frustration, wasted time and effort, and disappointment only to find out it does not work or that "usable" should be acceptable. It either works correctly or it does not (I think that is what started this thread.....). I can tell you that PP works correctly. Yes I have to have another power meter but at least I don't have to use my Garmin to record data bc the TR or Wahoo data is incorrect, I don't have to make adjustments, I don't have to worry about drift, or belt tightening, etc. etc.
Not trying to argue or say that you are wrong, only chirping in my 2 cents and venting my frustration of wasting so much time trying to get the whole kickr firmware update, etc.,etc.etc. to work.( and the fact that Wahoo has done nothing to admit and correct this problem)
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [ccassidy] [ In reply to ]
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I think both the Wahoo firmware and PerfPro 'work' in adjusting the Kickr to my Vector power meter. They're not identically good, and I think the PerfPro implementation is better, but on the basis of my own personal experience, having tried both and examining the data, I'd be comfortable training with either. I would not be comfortable relying on the Kickr's internal power meter alone - that implementation is still broken.

See post #715 (link) for an example of my experiences with both.

By the way, I'm an engineering graduate, with both training and practical experience in electronics and control theory, and 25 years in the technology business. I'm reasonably well qualified to hold these views.
Last edited by: marting: Mar 26, 15 12:57
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [marting] [ In reply to ]
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marting wrote:
jmuise wrote:
NATE - Please get TR to control KICKR via External Power Meter ASAP, I've tried PP and I do think it's a good product but TR is my preference. I've given up on Wahoo to do anything useful, GET IT DONE!


If I may rephrase that slightly...

NATE - Please get TR to control KICKR via External Power Meter ASAP, I've tried PP and I do think it's a good product but TR is my preference. I've given up on Wahoo to do anything useful, so we would be really pleased if you're able to address the problem in TR! Thank-you.

Yes come on Nate, its all down to you now! I'm taking this feature isn't in the 3.0 iOS release - please hurry up and save me from trading my Kickr in for a Wattbike!
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [MrZ] [ In reply to ]
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MrZ wrote:
Nate Pearson wrote:
Felt_Rider wrote:
Bigpikle wrote:
Sounds like Nate and TR will soon get this fixed and Tr will offer the same functionality as PerfPro/Beta app.


BP, that is my hope as well. I trust Nate and his crew will get something incorporated as soon as they get focused and it will be competitive to PerfPro rather than trying to match Wahoo. I will hang on and use TrainerRoad since I am fortunate to have my Quarq controlling the efforts until they get their own solution.

______________________

What I find interesting is that PerfPro got this to work regardless of needing to use a Kickr firmware update. Is that correct? There is no mention of it on the website and unless I have missed it those using the PerfPro beta have not mentioned needing to update the firmware. I find that to be really interesting and it implies that PerfPro may have figured out something totally different because Wahoo's solution was both an app and firmware update.


Just found out that PerfPro did it via software and is not using the Wahoo beta. We've just submitted a bug fix release to the app store. Our next iOS release (pending any critical bugs) will have this feature in it. Desktop will take a bit longer, but I think we can add it in there too.

The entire office uses Kickrs and PMs and this is a feature we've all wanted for a while. We thought we'd just wait for Wahoo to do it but it looks like doing it in software works well too.

Thanks for starting this thread and being so active guys. Talking about stuff like this really brings it to the company's attention and pushes us to be better :).


I notice Trainer road iOS app was updated to 3.0 the other day. Does anyone know if the release had the feature incorporated as suggested above?
Like many on here i bought a Kickr based on solid reviews and a promise of accurate power. I've wasted so much time gaffing about and whats the point of training if you don't trust the numbers..
I don't want to spend another 100 quid on Perf pro, its bad enough that i need another power meter to possibly get accurate numbers, just lucky i've got one already
And as for Wahoo's support - terrible experience. Such a shame for what is aside from these issues a superb product

Our 3.0 release didn't have that feature in it.

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [MrZ] [ In reply to ]
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MrZ wrote:
marting wrote:
jmuise wrote:
NATE - Please get TR to control KICKR via External Power Meter ASAP, I've tried PP and I do think it's a good product but TR is my preference. I've given up on Wahoo to do anything useful, GET IT DONE!


If I may rephrase that slightly...

NATE - Please get TR to control KICKR via External Power Meter ASAP, I've tried PP and I do think it's a good product but TR is my preference. I've given up on Wahoo to do anything useful, so we would be really pleased if you're able to address the problem in TR! Thank-you.


Yes come on Nate, its all down to you now! I'm taking this feature isn't in the 3.0 iOS release - please hurry up and save me from trading my Kickr in for a Wattbike!

Work on this starts Monday! We're doing inRide roll down and this feature.

Our idea is that if you have a power meter and a kickr (or any electronic trainer paired) we'll automatically adjust the electronic trainer to match your power meter. We can't think of a reason why you wouldn't want that feature on...unless you're DC rainmaker doing Pm/Kickr tests.

Thoughts?

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Excellent, we're counting on you Nate, that would certainly do the job for me!
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Nate Pearson wrote:
Work on this starts Monday! We're doing inRide roll down and this feature.

Our idea is that if you have a power meter and a kickr (or any electronic trainer paired) we'll automatically adjust the electronic trainer to match your power meter. We can't think of a reason why you wouldn't want that feature on...unless you're DC rainmaker doing Pm/Kickr tests.

Thoughts?

That sounds GREAT! Like many here, I also dabbled around with PerfPro - personally, I much prefer the TrainerRoad interface! I'm more interested in the PC implementation, but I know the quicker you get the mobile platform updated, the quicker the desktop fix will come. I appreciate you guys as well as PerfPro for taking it upon yourselves to get this issue resolved.

I don't really care for discussing whether or not the Kickr is a great trainer and I certainly don't care for calling people out on their reviews as has been done. It's a solid piece of hardware - I'll give it that! It's built like a tank, I don't have to burn through tires, and it has good feel. With the right software implementation, I'll be 100% happy with it again. Let's get it fixed and move on!
Last edited by: cmeeks: Mar 26, 15 19:55
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Nate Pearson wrote:
Work on this starts Monday! We're doing inRide roll down and this feature.

Our idea is that if you have a power meter and a kickr (or any electronic trainer paired) we'll automatically adjust the electronic trainer to match your power meter. We can't think of a reason why you wouldn't want that feature on...unless you're DC rainmaker doing Pm/Kickr tests.

Thoughts?

Excellent!!!


Question Nate: When I first saw inRide I thought InsideRide as in E-Motion rollers. I know your group was helping InsideRide with their wireless controller for the rollers. Are you still helping them?

I got an invite the on Monday from InsideRide to apply as the next phase of Beta testing and saw they are getting closer. I was tempted to apply, but I think I will wait because my schedule is busy enough and I need to stay on track with my weekly training schedule. However, having loved the E-Motion rollers (logged many hours since 2011) I am really excited. If it works out when released for public purchase I may put this particular indoor trainer at the top of my list for recommendation. The reason being is having the flexibility to use as a roller or in a semi fixed position using a fork stand that they recently released with having ERG ability makes it pretty nice. It has an excellent feel to it with the adjustable magnetic resistance, but then to make that resistance work in ERG based on a programmed workout is going to be really nice. I bought the fork stand and tried it out a couple weeks ago and it really makes it nice on days that one may want to take balance out of the training equation at times (like short Vo2 efforts).
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Nate Pearson wrote:
MrZ wrote:
marting wrote:
jmuise wrote:
NATE - Please get TR to control KICKR via External Power Meter ASAP, I've tried PP and I do think it's a good product but TR is my preference. I've given up on Wahoo to do anything useful, GET IT DONE!


If I may rephrase that slightly...

NATE - Please get TR to control KICKR via External Power Meter ASAP, I've tried PP and I do think it's a good product but TR is my preference. I've given up on Wahoo to do anything useful, so we would be really pleased if you're able to address the problem in TR! Thank-you.


Yes come on Nate, its all down to you now! I'm taking this feature isn't in the 3.0 iOS release - please hurry up and save me from trading my Kickr in for a Wattbike!


Work on this starts Monday! We're doing inRide roll down and this feature.

Our idea is that if you have a power meter and a kickr (or any electronic trainer paired) we'll automatically adjust the electronic trainer to match your power meter. We can't think of a reason why you wouldn't want that feature on...unless you're DC rainmaker doing Pm/Kickr tests.

Thoughts?

This would be perfect for me, if for whatever reason I didn't want TR to control my electronic trainer via my External Powermeter couldn't I simply not pair it with TR? I can't think of any reason I wouldn't want it controlled by my external PM tho.

Thanks so much Nate!! Can't wait for your fix.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [cmeeks] [ In reply to ]
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cmeeks wrote:
[
I don't really care for discussing whether or not the Kickr is a great trainer and I certainly don't care for calling people out on their reviews as has been done. It's a solid piece of hardware - I'll give it that! It's built like a tank, I don't have to burn through tires, and it has good feel. With the right software implementation, I'll be 100% happy with it again. Let's get it fixed and move on!

What about those that don't have a 2nd non hub based power meter? No software "implementation" will fix that. It just happens to have a workaround IF you have and are using a 2nd power meter.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [ccassidy] [ In reply to ]
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ccassidy wrote:
marting - IMHO I don't believe that the new Wahoo firmware update control your kickr by powermeter works at all. I think that if you feel like it does and its "usable", it is basically a coincidence (like all of the other fixes that have been suggested). If it "works", why has Wahoo not said anything? Why has TR not said that it does?

I can't answer the last two questions, but I'd dispute the claim that it's a "coincidence." My Kickr used to read 15-20 watts higher than my Quarq. With v.26 of the firmware and the beta Wahooligan app, they consistently read the same (and I know it's the power from the Quarq because I am measuring that independently but at the same time that TR is reading off of my Kickr). I've used the beta for probably two months now and numerous trainer rides. Hard to see how this is a "coincidence."
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Felt_Rider] [ In reply to ]
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Felt_Rider wrote:
Nate Pearson wrote:

Work on this starts Monday! We're doing inRide roll down and this feature.

Our idea is that if you have a power meter and a kickr (or any electronic trainer paired) we'll automatically adjust the electronic trainer to match your power meter. We can't think of a reason why you wouldn't want that feature on...unless you're DC rainmaker doing Pm/Kickr tests.

Thoughts?


Excellent!!!


Question Nate: When I first saw inRide I thought InsideRide as in E-Motion rollers. I know your group was helping InsideRide with their wireless controller for the rollers. Are you still helping them?

I got an invite the on Monday from InsideRide to apply as the next phase of Beta testing and saw they are getting closer. I was tempted to apply, but I think I will wait because my schedule is busy enough and I need to stay on track with my weekly training schedule. However, having loved the E-Motion rollers (logged many hours since 2011) I am really excited. If it works out when released for public purchase I may put this particular indoor trainer at the top of my list for recommendation. The reason being is having the flexibility to use as a roller or in a semi fixed position using a fork stand that they recently released with having ERG ability makes it pretty nice. It has an excellent feel to it with the adjustable magnetic resistance, but then to make that resistance work in ERG based on a programmed workout is going to be really nice. I bought the fork stand and tried it out a couple weeks ago and it really makes it nice on days that one may want to take balance out of the training equation at times (like short Vo2 efforts).

Yes, we're working with Jason from insideRide technologies. He's a very very smart guy. The good news is that if we build this power meter + erg trainer support it would work for power meter + computrainer and power meter + emotion erg rollers!

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [mcmetal] [ In reply to ]
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mcmetal wrote:
cmeeks wrote:
[
I don't really care for discussing whether or not the Kickr is a great trainer and I certainly don't care for calling people out on their reviews as has been done. It's a solid piece of hardware - I'll give it that! It's built like a tank, I don't have to burn through tires, and it has good feel. With the right software implementation, I'll be 100% happy with it again. Let's get it fixed and move on!


What about those that don't have a 2nd non hub based power meter? No software "implementation" will fix that. It just happens to have a workaround IF you have and are using a 2nd power meter.

Yes you are 100% correct.... and that's the reason we are all so pissed at Wahoo!!

Sad that TR and PP are the fixes we are looking to for help... it should be Wahoo responding on here and trying to help.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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I suppose I am fortunate enough that I was an early adopter and got a first gen Kickr thay tracks fairly well. It drifts around a bit at first then stays within 5-7w of my Quarq, depending on whether I am riding 150w or 250w. And my Quarq is within 2w of my vectors, which sits between the two. I can only imagine how frustrated I would be if I were in the same boat as many of you. That said I am pleased that PP and soon TR both will allow an external powermeter to control the Kickr. Personally I would have bought the Kickr anyway if that were the ONLY way it was supposed to work out of the box, it just stinks that it took spotty hardware for the software guys to work out a "fix."

Hope you all get this resolved to your liking soon.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Donzo98] [ In reply to ]
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What wahoo needs is a public review highlighting this serious issue by someone who is not afraid to say so.

All reviews searched online now are very positive and no doubt will dupe people into buying, like myself.

Donzo98 wrote:
mcmetal wrote:
cmeeks wrote:
[
I don't really care for discussing whether or not the Kickr is a great trainer and I certainly don't care for calling people out on their reviews as has been done. It's a solid piece of hardware - I'll give it that! It's built like a tank, I don't have to burn through tires, and it has good feel. With the right software implementation, I'll be 100% happy with it again. Let's get it fixed and move on!


What about those that don't have a 2nd non hub based power meter? No software "implementation" will fix that. It just happens to have a workaround IF you have and are using a 2nd power meter.

Yes you are 100% correct.... and that's the reason we are all so pissed at Wahoo!!

Sad that TR and PP are the fixes we are looking to for help... it should be Wahoo responding on here and trying to help.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Nate Pearson wrote:
MrZ wrote:
marting wrote:
jmuise wrote:
NATE - Please get TR to control KICKR via External Power Meter ASAP, I've tried PP and I do think it's a good product but TR is my preference. I've given up on Wahoo to do anything useful, GET IT DONE!


If I may rephrase that slightly...

NATE - Please get TR to control KICKR via External Power Meter ASAP, I've tried PP and I do think it's a good product but TR is my preference. I've given up on Wahoo to do anything useful, so we would be really pleased if you're able to address the problem in TR! Thank-you.


Yes come on Nate, its all down to you now! I'm taking this feature isn't in the 3.0 iOS release - please hurry up and save me from trading my Kickr in for a Wattbike!


Work on this starts Monday! We're doing inRide roll down and this feature.

Our idea is that if you have a power meter and a kickr (or any electronic trainer paired) we'll automatically adjust the electronic trainer to match your power meter. We can't think of a reason why you wouldn't want that feature on...unless you're DC rainmaker doing Pm/Kickr tests.

Thoughts?

Would there be any option to turn this off (even if via some funky config file)? I actually have less interest in the KICKR in this scenario, as I generally don't use that as much for deeper power meter tests* - but rather for other electronic trainers, most notably the CompuTrainer.

*Before people misinterpret things, the reason I use the CompuTrainer for most power meter tests over the KICKR is simply that with the CT I can add/keep the PowerTap wheel, whereas with the KICKR I lose that. So, with a CT I can generally do four power meters at once, whereas the KICKR tops out around 3 usually (depending on exact implementation).


-
My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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dcrainmaker wrote:
Nate Pearson wrote:
MrZ wrote:
marting wrote:
jmuise wrote:
NATE - Please get TR to control KICKR via External Power Meter ASAP, I've tried PP and I do think it's a good product but TR is my preference. I've given up on Wahoo to do anything useful, GET IT DONE!


If I may rephrase that slightly...

NATE - Please get TR to control KICKR via External Power Meter ASAP, I've tried PP and I do think it's a good product but TR is my preference. I've given up on Wahoo to do anything useful, so we would be really pleased if you're able to address the problem in TR! Thank-you.


Yes come on Nate, its all down to you now! I'm taking this feature isn't in the 3.0 iOS release - please hurry up and save me from trading my Kickr in for a Wattbike!


Work on this starts Monday! We're doing inRide roll down and this feature.

Our idea is that if you have a power meter and a kickr (or any electronic trainer paired) we'll automatically adjust the electronic trainer to match your power meter. We can't think of a reason why you wouldn't want that feature on...unless you're DC rainmaker doing Pm/Kickr tests.

Thoughts?


Would there be any option to turn this off (even if via some funky config file)? I actually have less interest in the KICKR in this scenario, as I generally don't use that as much for deeper power meter tests* - but rather for other electronic trainers, most notably the CompuTrainer.

*Before people misinterpret things, the reason I use the CompuTrainer for most power meter tests over the KICKR is simply that with the CT I can add/keep the PowerTap wheel, whereas with the KICKR I lose that. So, with a CT I can generally do four power meters at once, whereas the KICKR tops out around 3 usually (depending on exact implementation).

Yes, we can make an option :). We'll just turn it on by default when both a PM and trainer is paired.

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, we can make an option :). We'll just turn it on by default when both a PM and trainer is paired.



Nate... get off of ST... and get to work!!

We are all waiting :)
Last edited by: Donzo98: Mar 27, 15 19:17
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [lennyk] [ In reply to ]
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lennyk wrote:

What wahoo needs is a public review highlighting this serious issue by someone who is not afraid to say so.

All reviews searched online now are very positive and no doubt will dupe people into buying, like myself.

These are not....

Wahoo Kickr Review

Wahoo Kickr Test

Both report the same issues...
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