In the UK, you return it to the place you bought it, stating it's "not fit for purpose". If this is true (ie, it doesn't meet its advertised claims), you are entitled to a refund.

So, I'm following up with my results from simply upgrading to beta firmware .26. As predicted, no change, it was still soft.

Expecting this, I brought one of my bikes in from the cold, dark garage, which happens to have a Quarq power meter. Threw it on the Kickr. On tap for today, was 15 minutes of warmup, then 2 x 25 at 310 watts, 5 mins between, then 10 cooldown. I have previously been using my OLD kurt kinetic, and when I say OLD, it's not even green, and still works fine, along with a Powertap G3 rear wheel. This has been so solid for me I can almost predict my heart rate based on my power on any given day. I have a routine to keep it consistent in terms of power, tire pressure always the same, tension of the unit against the tire always the same.

Anyway, I paired the Quarq to my Garmin, and the Wahoo was being driven by the iPad. I set the Wahoo into ERG mode, and at 200 watts to start. My Quarq was telling me I was about 168. Heart rate was barely elevated, I think I was 110 or so. As I warmed up more, I kept upping the Wahoo so I had some resistance. My theory was that I could use the Wahoo as a steady resistance, and the Quarq would be my actual data. I did a spindown at 10 minutes, and one at 15 minutes just before starting the real work of the day. I did a calibration of the Quarq when I first started, and did the pedal backwards 4x at 15 minutes as well.

Did the first rep. I ended up at 350 on the Wahoo ERG to keep my lap power at 310 watts. I was not smooth by any means, because the Quarq is reading all of my nuances in my cadence. My heart rate was just about 160 which is where I expect it to be.

5 minute rest was done at 285 watts on the Wahoo, I honestly forget the Garmin reading at that point but I was looking for about 230-240.

Next rep was about the same, I had to at one point go to about 365, then 360, then 355, then settled at 357, but it felt like the Wahoo was just not adjusting to my cadence changes. I ended up at one point around 83 for my rpm, but I wanted to be at 92, so I did some quick pedals and then it felt soft, but only by about 10-15 watts, until it sorted itself out, usually in I'd say 30 seconds. Not enough to alter my effort overall but noticeable since I was looking for faults.

Then I cooled down around 285 watts on the Wahoo, 230-240 on the Garmin. Heart rate dropped to 138, almost like normal. My heart rate during the rep was 161 by the end.

I felt overall I was 40-50 watts UNDER what the Wahoo was telling me I during ERG mode. Seems ridiculous.

I didn't plan on doing anything more but read the belt tension "hackaround" procedure by Krispy and decided to do it. Got my spindown to 23.9 seconds, tried it out, then tightened probably close to 2 full turns of the belt tension screw before I was close. I set the Wahoo to 230 watts, and got my cadence to 90 rpm, and tried to hold as smooth as I could, and was 225-235 range. Figured I'd call it close and clean up.

Tomorrow is an easy Zone 2 day to recover from a 3 day block. I'm going to set the Wahoo to some common numbers for me, and then compare the actual Quarq number to it, and see if I can deal.

I'm trying to avoid interjecting my personal feelings here because I want to get to a solution, but I'm peeved that I essentially have a 1000 dollar heart rate monitor right now since I don't trust the power, peeved that I have to use a SECOND 1000 dollar power meter to check this one, and peeved that in my head, I don't see how this is fixable via software. What if someone off the street buys one of these, and has no other power data (newbie for example)? They're hosed, and hosed out of a grand.

My actual season training starts in 2 weeks, and I have to decide if I want to lay my results in the hands of a company that isn't responding, and my adjusting a belt every x days to make sure I'm consistent.

10k

.26 has no effect without Wahooligan. I also missed out on the app.

I too am pissed about the situation...

I even bought a $127.00 20kg calibration weight and custom handle to recalculate my slope on my SRM. I was hoping that was part of the problem.

After recalculating the slope on my SRM, I used the KICKR calibration kit to get that part of the equation sorted out.

Still off by 10-30 watts...

Really annoying... the closest it ever gets is like 8 watts or so.

How long into the ride was this spindown done?

I do a spin down in the beginning(about 19.5seconds), then again after 15mins of warm up (about 22.8seconds) then i leave it that until i'm complete done my workout. Then i do a 3rd spin down just to see where the numbers are, and it jumps to 27seconds. But the offset never changes. It stays at 796. And no matter if I leave the calibration set from the previous workout it's always 25-30watts above what my SRM reads

At the point of the belt tension, it was after my full workout was complete. My theory was that this was when everything was up to max temps and that's when I'd like the accuracy most.

I did them at 10 and 15 minutes though today so I got a good baseline compared to the Quarq.

I wonder what Wahoo is going to do for us...

I really can't see how they can actually fix the problem with our current KICKR's. Maybe they can get things worked out with a new version of the KICKR, but that doesn't help us (unless they are going to replace ours).

I think it will be a tricky fix also,
The kickr obviously uses a feedback loop to control itself,
However with additional variables of belt tension, temperature drift, belft rubber temperature it mght be a challenge.

I don't see that it's impossible provided the implementation is good.

There are long-term variations across numerous workouts (e.g. belt tension, bearing wear, manufacturing differences between units) and short-term variations during a workout (e.g. belt temperature affecting energy loss in the belt, brake temperature affecting coil resistance and hence actual braking effect). Many have observed the latter as "drift" during a workout.

The long term variations can (in theory) be addressed by the spin-down, and short term variations by the internal temperature sensor.

Provided the spin-down is performed at the same temperature as the normal operating point (e.g. rider power output representative of "hard work"), it ought to be close enough for practical use.

Also, by providing a mechanism to calibrate occasionally against a known good external power meter, it should be possible to build confidence in the Kickr's own calibration method.

Until the external PM control is available (I missed the beta), I'm doing the spin down calibration once I've thoroughly warmed up the trainer, eg 10 mins at 250W. Then I won't mess with it for a while. I do still find I need to adjust the workout % in TrainerRoad though so the actual brake resistance matches what I want, measuring "true power" on my Vectors.

it appears the existing spindown calibration uses coast time to a particular speed determine a "zero point"
one must wonder if this method is accurate for different belt tensions

I've read through this entire thread a few times over and did notice that Wahoo had a rep here at one point that said a few things. I think we've provided a LOT more to this thread at this point and the company should chime in with some of the "fixes" being performed, timelines on the app being released for anyone wanting to run the Wahooligan with another power meter, and I'd love to see a long term plan from them about how they are rectifying this for us on a permanent level.

I'm assuming they probably set up their account like most of us, and get an email letting them know someone has replied to a thread they are associated with. Hopefully they aren't in the junk mail folder.

I've also written their support asking for an ETA on the Wahooligan app, as usual, no reply yet.

As for the spindown accuracy, I think it can do something constructive if it's implemented correctly, but I think without a temperature monitor and logic to adjust for it, we'll have the same issue. I'm trying to think of a way I can measure the tension of the belt, almost the way the Park spoke tension tool measures for spokes. That'd be interesting to compare from unit to unit via this thread.

There *is* a temperature sensor of some form in there. When I perform a spindown calibration in TrainerRoad it reports both spindown time and temperature values to me. The temperature value increases as I do work on the trainer - starts off at ambient, then rises significantly during the course of a workout. From memory, it was 38 degrees last time I did it.

What this doesn't tell us is if the sensor is in the right place to be measuring the temperature of the relevant parts inside, or even if it responds quickly enough to give useful feedback to the the control loop.

My spindown number is usually in the mid 1200's no matter if I do a spindown at the beginning and at the end of a 2hr workout. My difference was only 10watts from my quarq and it seemed to remain consistent (and not drift) but I'm never pushing more than 220watts anyways so it probably won't span more since it's so low. Maybe retentioning will work for me? I don't want to really do anything yet until the official instructions/firmware etc. comes from Wahoo but wow they're taking their time with no updates.

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http://www.clperformancetraining.com
http://www.pillasport.ca

My spindown used to be 431 always... then I recalibrated with the KICKR calibration kit. Now it is always 416.

On my first Kickr, my offset number started off high, 1150-1200 range. When I began troubleshooting with Wahoo, they said my numbers looked normal (they can see this information remotely, the app must upload it periodically). I told them of my issues, and had to convince them to let me try a calibration kit.

After doing so, my offset number went back down into the 400's, which was close to what I was seeing from others that have posted.

My 2nd Kickr has an offset in the 500's, but I'm not going to perform another spindown since I'm on the belt hackaround now.

Word from Wahoo just hit my inbox that the Wahooligan app is "hopefully going to be ready in the next month or so", and I've been added to a notification list.

Not that it solves this issue though.

Stay tuned for my belt tension workout numbers, will do it this evening after work.

So you expect trainer that has power meter to cost less then separate power meter alone?

Did recalibrating your offset with this calibration kit affect the watt difference between your powermeter and the Kickr? Did it stop the drift?

I think I need to get this calibration kit. Warm or cold it's always in the 1200s.

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http://www.clperformancetraining.com
http://www.pillasport.ca

It made no difference with my perceived effort, heart rate, or actual power meter comparison when I threw my other bike on the Kickr.

I had the same issue as you, super high numbers, no matter what, warmed up, room temp, mid workout, etc.

Just to see if I would get a response, I logged a ticket with Wahoo support. And a day later I did receive an answer, vague, but an answer

Ian Evans (Wahoo Fitness Support)
Feb 6, 11:58 AM
Hi Rob,
I am sorry you are having this issue. We are currently working on that firmware. It should be released in the next month or two. Please stay tuned and download any updates that may become available.
Thanks,
Ian


Robjones67
Feb 5, 4:40 PM
I'm well aware of the Beta Wahooligan app that was leaked to allow the Kickr to be controlled by another power meter. There is absolutely no mention on the website or blog of any development of a fix or that you are addressing the problem. Meanwhile the trainer is so out of whack with the readings, despite spin down, cleaning etc. I would like to be notified of any updates or releases of the app or a fix to the firmware.

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Non-Swimming Duathlete

I agree with 10k... it made ZERO difference. I didn't have drift before... just inaccurate watts compared to the SRM.

I fit thermostatic power showers for a living, a while ago I fitted a shower in a customers house, I got a call from the customer a week later saying the temperature and the power of the shower fluctuates over the time it takes to have a shower,and we are not happy about it. I had to go back a correct the problem straight away... Perhaps I should of said sorry about this problem we should be able to fix it in a month or two !!! I just wish I had not sold the Computainer !!!

Yeah, but the Computrainer has its own issues like a flat tire right in the middle of a really hard workout from the tire overheating.

x 1000... multiple issues with flats on the CT.

I did everything right too.... small ring... middle of the cassette. Tire pressure not too high. Tires exploded mid ride... about 4 times.

Did you have a trainer specific tire?

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yes... multiple types too. Conti and Kenda. Freaked me out!!! No matter how off the KICKR is.... I would never go back to the CT. My KICKR workouts are great. I will be very happy when the power issues are fixed... but CT... No way!!

I was having similar problems... watts off by 30-40 (KICKR high compared to SRM) but offset consistently 655-657 depending on when I did the spindown, and seemingly not related to temperature.

One day I started doing like others were doing and logged my workouts with both KICKR and SRM and put them into a spreadsheet. What I would do was do a spindown, run for 10 minutes, do another, etc. and spin down every 10 minutes. Same gear every time, increasing the watts from easy to steady. The difference went from 40 to 30 to 20 to finally 10 watts high, but if anything the KICKR should be 5 watts low.

Then I started running my heater and dehumidifier in my garage. I noticed that by starting a workout and not spinning down, it was already spot on. As the workouts went on there would be a little drift. I'm at the point now where I don't touch the spindown anymore and the watts are right on to only slightly high. I think once during a long workout I saw some drift and so spun down and it was back to normal. The next day though watts were *low* compared to the day before at the start of the workout, since I think I was calibrated for a hotter tempurature..

all my temperature anecdotes are purely speculation, I really have no idea why it drifts or if my dehumidifier really even worked, but just wanted to share.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

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