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Re: Comments? [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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I personally don't have beef with this. I would feel more comfotrable with this if they specified the charity which they would be donating the money to. Also If they are donating the money they should be very clear about exactly what money goes to what place. Then again I feel in general it is not fair or important to question someones motives when they are giving to charity. In my mind the important thing is that it is being done. I also believe IM MOO did something similair, not an auction but higher priced entry fee.

After saying that I can understand why people would feel uncomfortable by this decision.
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Re: Comments? [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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I'll just say, those meer mortals and those with natural talent who have perservered for years to seek an IMH slot just got their hard work toward personal success put on the "in your face" auction block.

That being said, I'll be curious as to what the value of such an opportunity will go for on the open market.

Joe Moya
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Re: Comments? [taku] [ In reply to ]
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I also don't have a problem with it, provided the money goes to a deserving charity.
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Re: Comments? [jaylew] [ In reply to ]
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i'll just say - it doesn't surprise me that it doesn't surprise cathy.
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Re: Comments? [t-t-n] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
i'll just say - it doesn't surprise me that it doesn't surprise cathy.
I just call 'em as I see 'em. I also stand enough behind my opinions to put my real name and location in the user profile.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Auction better/same as lottery [ In reply to ]
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How is an auction for charity any worse or different than the lottery system? At least the auction winners have put a significant amount of money towards a charity.

I would rather have no lottery and all the lottery slots go to auction. (I know the contract wouldn't allow it)
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Re: Auction better/same as lottery [tom] [ In reply to ]
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Huh? Right, then it becomes the CEO challenge. They already have those. Kona is already expensive (and thus to some extent elitist) enough for the lower income triathlete.

That said I have no problem with a limited number of new slots going to a charity auction, as long as those buying the slots have to do SOMETHING (minimum half IM) to qualify, with a no-refund policy.
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Re: Auction better/same as lottery [Marlin] [ In reply to ]
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My assumption was that the auction winners will have to do the same things that lottery winners have to do.
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Re: Auction better/same as lottery [tom] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry, but I'm a cynic. Two questions:

1. Does IMH currently have a charity that benefits from the race? If so, they just found a way to keep the entire revenue stream to themselves, plus still direct money to the charity. It's a pretty short step from here to selling "premium" slots for big dollars that are bundled with say, some luxe accomodations, etc., with a portion of the total price "allocated" to a charitable contribution, and a bigger portion than the regular entry fee going to IMH pockets (they work a deal with the accomodation providers that gives them a discount, but they show the "regular" price as part of the total package and pocket a discount).

2. They say there will be now reduction in the number of lottery/qualifier slots. In that case, they have clearly made the decision that the race can handle additional competitors, so they are electing to do this when they could increase the number of qualifiers. Are they electing to create a new category (people with more $$ than pride), rather than allow more qualifiers to participate in the race because (a) they want to help the world, or (b) they want to reach a finger in and get a little of that money either now or later. Anyone aware anything that causes them to believe IM is more interested in (a) than (b)?

BTW, that last question isn't entirely sarcastic. Maybe there is something out there to so indicate. I haven't done any long course races, I'm not particularly talented, and I would rather spend my vacations doing soemthing other than a triathlon, so I don't really follow the IMH scene that closely. Maybe they aren't as capitalistic as I assume.
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Re: Auction better/same as lottery [tom] [ In reply to ]
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>>How is an auction for charity any worse or different than the lottery system? At least the auction winners have put a significant amount of money towards a charity.<<

You then limit it to people with a lot of discretionary cash. At least with the lottery, money is not an object (just the cost of the trip if you get a slot).

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Auction better/same as lottery [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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<<You then limit it to people with a lot of discretionary cash.>>

OK, I'm notoriously bad at communication so bear with me...

The people who win the lottery are undeserving of their slot in the fact that they got their slot for no reason (other than a few hundred $ given to WTC). In other words the lottery winners cannot point to a body of work and say this is the reason I'm going to kona. This is not a value judgement of lottery winners, just an evaluation of what it took to get to kona.

The people who win the auction point to their body of work (thousands of $ given to charity and a few hundred $ to WTC) and say this is why I should go to kona.

Personally, I don't want to go to Kona on either of these tickets. If I go, it will be through qualifying, which means I'll probably never go. However, if you want to talk about who deserves to go more, I would have to choose the person who donated money over the person who did nothing.

An interesting experiment would be to put in 1,000 hours of volunteer work for a good community project. Send in your race entry fee with a letter explaining to the WTC that you cannot afford an auction slot and submit your 1,000 hours as your donation to charity. Be sure and complete a qualifying race just like a lottery winner.

If I were the Kona RD I'd have 100 slots open for these kinds of people. Not only would it be an admirable thing to do, but think of the positve pr! Think of the sponsors who would love to have their names associated with that! Heck, an enterprising person could probably get these 100 volunteers some serious sponsorship so that they could compete with very little out of pocket expnses.
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But at the end of the day IF they are not [ In reply to ]
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reducing other slots either AG or lottery then it does not matter because those are not slots that would ever have been available for another athlete.

Personally I think that the lottery, the star slots, the CEO challenge and now this all fall in to the same boat and should not be offered at all but c'est la vie.
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Re: But at the end of the day IF they are not [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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I like the c'est la vie. I won't begrudge anyone who gets in, trains hard and finishes, whether they get in via the genetic lottery, $$, or any of the other ways. Just as long as they don't pretend they got in by qualifying if they didn't - then they'd be poseurs.
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Re: But at the end of the day IF they are not [jasinsf] [ In reply to ]
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can you please direct me to a website for the "genetic lottery" .. can one still enter ex post birtho?? what a great year 03' would be if i could train in the genetic pool, then race in kona...

alright alright!! but i AM still going to sign up for one of the above lotteries... (and then marry properly so my progeny wont need either of the above lotteries)



chris
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Whole-heartedly agree [ In reply to ]
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If WTC is going to offer race slots at its "World Championships" to anyone other than those who qualify for the race, then I would rather see all such slots be auctioned. To get a lottery slot you need money and luck. To get an auctioned slot, you need money. Why do we care about preserving the luck element? I don't. Lets make people who simply want to buy their way into the race pay the going rate, whatever that may be.

As for the issue of income disparity; I can't say I feel much sympathy for the economic plight of anyone participating in this sport. This is a rich man's/woman's sport. Whoever ends up in Hawaii has more diposable income than the vast majority of the world, so fretting over which wealthy people go and which stay home seems a bit silly.

Lastly, I like the idea of establishing a charity, setting up a means of monitoring contributions to that charity over a one-year period (probably beginning and ending in the the Spring), and awarding slots based on those contributions, subject to a minimum. There could be an exchange rate between dollars and hours (say, $20/hour) so that you could equate people who gave money with people who gave time.
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Re: But at the end of the day IF they are not [chrisli] [ In reply to ]
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Hey I wish I knew the magic website.

BTW I'm in for the lottery again, but also training hard, losing more weight and doing a couple of qualifiers.

If I got in via the lottery, I'd train even harder, have a great time in Hawaii, and happily tell anyone and everyone that I got lucky and got in thru the lottery. That's what it's there for.
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Everyone is missing the point / plot [ In reply to ]
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The WTC is not saying there are 200 lottery slots in stead of AG slots or that these auctioned slots are instead of AG slots or that the CEO Challenge (Joke) is instead of AG slots these are in addition to and if they chose not to offer them there would be no other slots.

Therefore if people want to pony up the dough, run a company or are just plain lucky and want to tell people that they went to the WC then thats all fine. They are no different than the people that work for John Hnacock and tell people that they run the Boston marathon.........
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Re: But at the end of the day IF they are not [jasinsf] [ In reply to ]
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I don't like a lot of the things the i dot machine is doing. It's all about money. Their are other iron distance races that all the money goes to charity. They put on a good race but so do others.

Dirtball
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Re: Whole-heartedly agree [garth] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
As for the issue of income disparity; I can't say I feel much sympathy for the economic plight of anyone participating in this sport. This is a rich man's/woman's sport. Whoever ends up in Hawaii has more diposable income than the vast majority of the world, so fretting over which wealthy people go and which stay home seems a bit silly. -------------------------
You live in a surreal world then. There are quite a few triathletes, just in NorCal, who train and race and don't make $*it loads of money or have the discretionary income to go to Kona every year, even if they did qualify. We won't even go into non-US triathletes who can't afford the trip and the "World Championship" title. And, it seems other races are picking up the IMNA/WTC "buy your way in". I got this email this morning: YOU CAN STILL GET IN TO [name of race that sells out really quickly] IF YOU DONATE 500.00 DOLLARS & RACE APPLICATION FEE TO RACE DIRECTORS FAVORITE CHARITY BUT DON'T TELL ANYONE I TOLD YOU ABOUT THIS.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
Last edited by: ironclm: Feb 14, 03 11:55
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Re: Auction better/same as lottery [tom] [ In reply to ]
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So which is?

>>The people who win the lottery are undeserving of their slot in the fact that they got their slot for no reason<<

or

>>This is not a value judgement of lottery winners<<

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: which is it [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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Please refer back to the entire paragraph (remember I asked you to bear with me)

I'm intending to say much the same as another poster did later. Lottery winners got lucky i.e. they don't deserve the slot because it was given analagous to a gift. By definition a gift is unearned. If you did something for it, then it is compensation, not a gift, and has been earned.

I'm not making a value judgement that lottery winners should not accept the gift or that they are compromised in some way. I'm simply making the statement that if someone receives a slot as a gift then it is unearned.
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Re: Comments? [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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Shouldn't one qualify for a world championship? I feel both lottery and auction are wrong for a world championship. If a participant can buy their way in, then is it really a gathering of the best in the world? Granted, those who don't qualify are probably 99.9% out of the running for a podium spot, it still kind of dilutes the prestige of the event for me.
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Re: Comments? [jima] [ In reply to ]
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Well unfortunately you didn't start Ironman 25 years ago or you could have removed the idea of having a spot for the "ordinary man/woman".
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Re: Comments? [jima] [ In reply to ]
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The original owner of the IM race put a clause into the contract that there be a manner for extras to get in to the race. As you can see, I'm fuzzy on the details but the short of it is that there must always be civilians in the race.
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