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Changes in Kona
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I recently heard from a pretty reliable source about some of the changes being considered by WTC for the IM in Hawaii. If you haven’t figured it out before, it’s all about $$$. No. 1, they want more people in the race. With the race at its current size, there are no more slots to be distributed to new IMs. But, increase the number in Hawaii & you open up more slots for more IMs around the world. Great, except that most in Hawaii have qualified to get to Kona & the range in ability is far smaller than other IM’s, so a huge group comes out of the water together and then struggles to avoid drafting on the Queen K. Obviously more people will only make drafting more of a concern & Charlie Crawford can’t be everywhere. I also heard they are considering changing to one transition area. Since there’s no room left on the pier now, I assume that means moving the swim to a new location. IMO, there’s no need to change the swim or make major changes in the bike or run course. Another excuse given for making changes to the course is to make the race more “spectator friendly”. The majority of the spectators in Hawaii are family & friends & they will watch their triathlete no matter what the course is. Sure it would be nice for spectators to have a loop course, but WTC needs to understand that part of what makes Hawaii special is the fact that it’s been basically the same course for nearly 25 years. I’m afraid that WTC is going to mess it up. If you’re also concerned, contact WTC & let them know what you think. Maybe we can convince them to leave a great race alone.
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Re: Changes in Kona [drkoontz] [ In reply to ]
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Why is the WTC against wave starts? As I understand it this was one of the issues which led to Roth being dropped as an M-dot event.
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Re: Changes in Kona [drkoontz] [ In reply to ]
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I sense that there is pressure to increase the size of the field at IMH. However, as the original poster points out this is going lead to more problems or the escalation of existing problems. From what I have seen in the past, there is no more room on the pier. I don't know what they would do if the plan is to add 200 - 500 more competitors. A change in the location of T1 is the obvious solution, but where do they go. There are limited options in the area.

The addition of more highly competitive triathletes to the race, will make congestion on the bike an even worse problem than it now is. This congestion is currently having a direct impact on the outcome of the women's race. The slower swimming women( Bowden et al) are getting caught up in the main field of age-group men and possibly having to ride more conservitivly than those women who exit the water clsoer to 50 minutes. These same pro women get terribly beat up on the swim. This opens the discussion to wave starts. In the past, it was said, and I don't know if this was the absolute truth, but the mass start was for the TV cameras. There was no other reason.

IMH is a great race, with an historic legacy in the sport of triathlon. I hope that they don't change it too much.

Here's an idea: Why doesn't the WTC move it's "World Championship" around to the other IM venues around the world? Hawaii is an awesome race, but wouldnt it be great to see ALL the best long distance triathletes in the world going head to head on different courses - Penticton, Lake Placid, New Zealand etc . . Bring the race back to Hawaii every 4 - 5 years, but other years move it around.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Changes in Kona [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:

Here's an idea: Why doesn't the WTC move it's "World Championship" around to the other IM venues around the world? Hawaii is an awesome race, but wouldnt it be great to see ALL the best long distance triathletes in the world going head to head on different courses - Penticton, Lake Placid, New Zealand etc . . Bring the race back to Hawaii every 4 - 5 years, but other years move it around.
I think that is a great idea. I have done germany, NZ, Canada, and Hawaii and I believe they are all worthy of the championship distinction. It would probably help the sport too. Q: would the Hawaii race die if not the championship?

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.
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Re: Changes in Kona [david] [ In reply to ]
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IMH will always be the most important IM race regardless of what you call it, unless the powers that be mess it up to the point that it no longer resembles the IMH we all know and love. That race is too steeped in history to ever be anything but the pinnacle of our sport (not unlike the Boston Marathon).

As I understand it, there was a lot of talk about changing the swim course in 2001 when they changed the bike course. The idea, as I recall, was to have the swim go north toward the old airport where T2 is located now. In the end they (most likely Sharon Ackles) decided there was too much tradition in the original course to make such a drastic change. Hmmmm...I wonder if that had anything to do with her departure?

Haim

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"Sometimes you need to think INSIDE the box!" -- ME
"Why squirrel hate me?"
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Re: Changes in Kona [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]This opens the discussion to wave starts. In the past, it was said, and I don't know if this was the absolute truth, but the mass start was for the TV cameras. There was no other reason.
[/reply]

I have no doubt that there is some truth to this. But, the other reality is that at IMH, more than any other IM that I know of, there would be a pretty significant weather (wind) penalty for starting in a later wave most years.

Haim

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"Sometimes you need to think INSIDE the box!" -- ME
"Why squirrel hate me?"
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Re: Changes in Kona [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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the big advantage i've always seen to not having wave starts is that when you're on the course you know exactly who is ahead of you and who is behind you. couple that with the midnite cutoff, and 25 years of history and I wouldn't change it if I were the WTC.
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Re: Changes in Kona [Richard R] [ In reply to ]
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wave starts had nothing to do with dropping Roth, it was personalites and the decision to add another IM in Europe. However, wave starts in an IM do suck (in my opinion) At Roth, they even broke a couple of age groups into multiple waves, and put the age group letters on legs. Hows that help?

As a specator, the mass start is awesome to watch and as a competitor it's really neat to look around during the race and see who you're with. It's a long day out there and the mass start sure helps hold my interest all the way thru and lends a "we're all in this together feeling to the day.

Irony can be humorous, but it does not have to be.

"I've always said that an Ironman is a reflection of your character" - Kevin Moats
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Re: Changes in Kona [east coast] [ In reply to ]
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No, no, no! Say it a'int so! WTC...do not change it any more than you already have! "If" I ever get a chance to race there, I want to race the race I have been dreaming of doing for a lot of years. Y'all already took out "the pit"!

Build a temporary second story on the pier for extra bikes. (out of what I'll leave to the engineers).

They can't move the championship to other locations accross the globe. Don't you guys know the history of this sport? Unbelievable that ya' thunk it! Ha!

Wave starts would suck at an IM. I like the seperate 'em with lanes kinda thing then merge later - like a road race marathon start. I think Dan E. wrote something about that on this site. The women caught with male cyclist is an issue - need ideas to handle that.
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Re: Changes in Kona [drkoontz] [ In reply to ]
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While this has nothing to do with the post, I was curious as to if you are the writer, Dean R Koontz, or just a great fan and decided to use that name.
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Re: Changes in Kona [drkoontz] [ In reply to ]
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I've done IMH several times and feel that the course could accomodate more athletes. How many? I have no idea but 200-300 I think is doable. My experience has been that there is some initial congestion on the bike course but it tends to spread out once past the airport. I would hate to see the swim course changed for reasons already given - the race is too steeped in history and tradition. A wave start, no thank you. It's just not IMH without a mass start and as one thread indicated the earlier you're on the bike course the less wind you have to contend with.
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Re: Changes in Kona [Mac] [ In reply to ]
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I think it's interesting to see the reaction any time there is a change (or proposed change) to the course in Kona. People (myself included) love the tradition of IM Hawaii, and want it to stay "as it was then". But which "then" are you talking about? Mac, for example, bemoans the removal of the "the Pit" from the course. However, the Pit wasn't even in the course not too many years ago. Nor was the Natural Energy Lab - we used to just run up the Queen K to a turnaround and then head back to town. Then the course went past the NEL before entering it on the way back to town. there have been a couple variations to the bike course as well; I like the turnaround in Hawi much better now that we don't have to go over the tire rippers in that family's front yard (ask Mark Allen how it was in '88) And most recently the changes instituted in 2001 to both the bike and run.

I did 2001, and the changes were certainly more "spectator friendly". Addtionally, I felt like the change to the bike course - specifically adding the long climb up the Kuakini Highway, spread the riders out early in the race, and made for less crowding even before the airport. I watched from the roadside this past year, and appreciated even more the spectator-friendly nature of the changes.

As for wave starts, I'm all for it, so long as I'm in one of the first waves - I'd just as soon get as far down the Queen K as possible before the winds kick up. 2001 is still too fresh in my mind. ;^)

While I have my issues with the WTC, and don't believe they always think things through, I can't imagine they're insensitive enough to make changes that will ultimately ruin the race entirely. I certainly hope they won't, and I'm willing to take a 'wait-and-see' attitude for now. Nostalgia aside, maybe we'll end up with something we can all appreciate, and the WTC can make some money along the way.

"...like every writer, he measured other men's virtues by what they had accomplished, yet asked that other men measure him by what he planned someday to do."
Last edited by: Lloyd: Jan 10, 03 9:12
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The obvious... [ In reply to ]
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I don't know of any reason tri's have to be done in a certain order. In fact, in the "old" days we did them in all sorts of orders without any problems. If they had the run first, then swim, then bike, it would practically eliminate the bike drafting problem. Maybe it's some sort of political thing?



"My strategy is to start out slow and then peter-out altogether" Walt Stack
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Re: Changes in Kona [Lloyd] [ In reply to ]
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The original Kona run course was a straight out and back affair on the Queen K hwy, that personified bleak and desolate. I recall the turn around point in 1989 was a large inflated Bud Light can out past the airport!! Newer incarnations of the run course are far more scenic for both competitors and spectators.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Changes in Kona [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Exactly. Which is my point. It's been mutating for years, and each iteration has had it's character. Nostalgia for the past forms of the course are not reason enough to argue against changes. If the WTC does make more changes for next year, I hope they'll just make it better.

"...like every writer, he measured other men's virtues by what they had accomplished, yet asked that other men measure him by what he planned someday to do."
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Re: Changes in Kona [Lloyd] [ In reply to ]
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There are other reasons changes might be instituted. A change could be considered if the course caused less of an impact on the local community. All the businesses in Kona, except some of the restaurants shut down on race day and it ain't held on Sunday. Not everyone in town is happy the race is there.

I can see changing the swim to have T1 at the airport. That would make the swim more like the original IM on Oahu where it was an out, down the reef, then back in. this would probably allow more competitors, a good thing if they could spread out the starting line a little.

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: Changes in Kona [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]There are other reasons changes might be instituted. A change could be considered if the course caused less of an impact on the local community. All the businesses in Kona, except some of the restaurants shut down on race day and it ain't held on Sunday. Not everyone in town is happy the race is there.[/reply]

Any Kona business owner that believes he/she would better off without IMH coming to town is truly naive. Business generated during the week makes up for that one lost day by far. Even if the race were to move away from Alii Drive (which would be a true tragedy), no one would be interested in shopping on race day anyway.

Haim

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"Sometimes you need to think INSIDE the box!" -- ME
"Why squirrel hate me?"
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Re: Changes in Kona [Haim] [ In reply to ]
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It is just a fact, not everyone is happy the race is there and so disruptive. For instance, I doubt triathletes spend more at Costco than Costco looses on race day, or any of the many businesses along Queen K that cater to the locals and not to tourists. Overall, most people (and many businesses) think it is a good thing but the less disruption the race causes the better neighbor the WTC is.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: Changes in Kona [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]It is just a fact, not everyone is happy the race is there and so disruptive. For instance, I doubt triathletes spend more at Costco than Costco looses on race day, or any of the many businesses along Queen K that cater to the locals and not to tourists.[/reply]

I am sure you are right about that Frank, but I believe it is short-sighted of those business owners. IMH brings a great deal of money into the area (and directly into Kailua). Even a business that does not cater to tourists will benefit indirectly. The more money that comes into the island, the more money locals have to spend at Costco. I would think the biggest complaints would come from the resorts to the north who may have a little more trouble picking up their guests and golfers from the airport.

I still can't understand why the whole world doesn't just stop during IMH ;)

Haim

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"Sometimes you need to think INSIDE the box!" -- ME
"Why squirrel hate me?"
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Re: The obvious... [C2KRider] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]I don't know of any reason tri's have to be done in a certain order. In fact, in the "old" days we did them in all sorts of orders without any problems. If they had the run first, then swim, then bike, it would practically eliminate the bike drafting problem. Maybe it's some sort of political thing?[/reply]

I think the main reason tris start with the swim, and most importantly, the long distanc ones, such as the Ironman, is that if you get tired during the bike or run, you have the option to stop. If your swimming in a big lake or ocean in a sea of hundreds of people, you really don't have that option. Or worse that getting tired, if you collapse or faint. If your swimming, your screwed.

I think that wave starts are an excellent idea, however, if done, I think that the race should start sooner than it does so that everyone can finish before a certain time, but also so that the water is similar in temp and in the violence of the waves.

I think maybe a 1/2 hour between the waves of people and about 3 waves would be best. That way the people will be separate enough that congestion will be blocked, and also you still have a big start with lots of people, you have 3 big starts, AND for people that like to watch just an individual portion; the swim, bike or run, can see it for a longer amount of time, better ratings for NBC or ESPN.

This is of course, not an expert opinion seeing as how I have yet to do any tri race, 'tis just my 2 cents.
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