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Changes coming for Lionel's Equipment
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e61eDUi3aOA


The guy just pours it out there, he's probably going to look pretty different at the next race
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Re: Changes coming for Lionel's Equipment [aerobean] [ In reply to ]
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aerobean wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e61eDUi3aOA


The guy just pours it out there, he's probably going to look pretty different at the next race

Big Lionel fan, but still i can only think "about time". I bet i he got at oceansidethe "okay i produce the same watts maybe even more than Frodeno, yet he is faster than me, i can never make up the gap just through fitness".
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Re: Changes coming for Lionel's Equipment [aerobean] [ In reply to ]
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"All my best races have been defeats."

--Lionel Sanders

Not much more to say.
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Re: Changes coming for Lionel's Equipment [aerobean] [ In reply to ]
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No mention of tire selection.
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Re: Changes coming for Lionel's Equipment [aerobean] [ In reply to ]
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He's 100% right. The amount of b.s. that happens when going from inside straight to racing outside is crazy.

On the other hand, I think part of what makes Sanders so powerful is the time spent on the trainer. I hope he doesn't switch to predominately outside riding. Instead, I would just sprinkle more outdoor rides in and also switch to mostly outdoor with a few weeks left before race day, and then definitely the last ride before the race.


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Re: Changes coming for Lionel's Equipment [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed. He should stay with the winter indoor beast mode, but then go set up camp in Arizona or something come late Feb-March and spend a solid 6-8 weeks outside. Then keep mixing inside/outside as the year permits.
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Re: Changes coming for Lionel's Equipment [JBell] [ In reply to ]
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And wow... Never been in a wind tunnel? THAT is going to be huge.

Gotta be careful though. Changes in bike position are a recipe for injury, especially at the load he pushes. Lionel, if you're reading this yammering, move position very gradually to where they want you to go. You've got 6 months. Do half a centimeter at a time until it feels normal, then move it again. Just like braces on teeth.


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Zen and the Art of Triathlon
Interviews with Jordan Rapp, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com
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Re: Changes coming for Lionel's Equipment [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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One thing I don't understand.....didn't they already do a lot of work on his position on the track with alpha mantis (or similar)?? So is he now implying they didn't make the correct changes, that there is suddenly so much more to gain?

I'm a big Lionel fan, but sometimes the other guy is just faster...
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Re: Changes coming for Lionel's Equipment [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah. I think the ultimate solution is alternating between wind tunnel and track/trainer to see how sustainable it is in the real world. One trick I've learned for myself is to lower the front until your HR starts climbing because you're struggling to breathe - that's too far. And another is to get your elbows and shoulders in front of your chest enough so that when you bring them together, they don't compress your chest so you can breathe great. All that can be done on a trainer with watts and HR. And then hit the wind tunnel to check out arm tilt, helmet, clothing, and shoes.


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Zen and the Art of Triathlon
Interviews with Jordan Rapp, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com
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Re: Changes coming for Lionel's Equipment [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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ZenTriBrett wrote:
And wow... Never been in a wind tunnel? THAT is going to be huge.

Maybe not in a tunnel exactly, but he's definitely worked with Alphamantis / AndyF / MarcG, which is as good/better. Thread is somewhere on here.

The Artist formally known as Leegoocrap
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Re: Changes coming for Lionel's Equipment [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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yeah, where i pegged his cda with aero eyeball ;)
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Re: Changes coming for Lionel's Equipment [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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ZenTriBrett wrote:
And wow... Never been in a wind tunnel? THAT is going to be huge.

Gotta be careful though. Changes in bike position are a recipe for injury, especially at the load he pushes. Lionel, if you're reading this yammering, move position very gradually to where they want you to go. You've got 6 months. Do half a centimeter at a time until it feels normal, then move it again. Just like braces on teeth.


Even 5mm at a time can be too much if you are talking about saddle height or setback. I recall that Bernard Hinault "radically" changed his position in the early 1980s - it resulted in his saddle being about 5-6mm higher and he moved his saddle up to the new height over an 18 month period. Gradualism at its finest!
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Re: Changes coming for Lionel's Equipment [Bdaghisallo] [ In reply to ]
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Ha! That's nuts. But totally right. If you are already incredible enough to be a top pro, you don't need to change much. Just very slightly. Since you're already at the top, "don't f*ck it up" as my dad would say. We humans have this huge problem where we want to change too much at once. Start over by moving to a new city, quit your job and start a new career without even having a job lined up, or literally the worst; try a totally different bike position because we see Jan Frodeno on it. (sarcasm, but not entirely)


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Zen and the Art of Triathlon
Interviews with Jordan Rapp, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com
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Re: Changes coming for Lionel's Equipment [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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ZenTriBrett wrote:
Ha! That's nuts. But totally right. If you are already incredible enough to be a top pro, you don't need to change much. Just very slightly. Since you're already at the top, "don't f*ck it up" as my dad would say. We humans have this huge problem where we want to change too much at once. Start over by moving to a new city, quit your job and start a new career without even having a job lined up, or literally the worst; try a totally different bike position because we see Jan Frodeno on it. (sarcasm, but not entirely)

It's not only the need not to move too much but the imperative not to in order to avoid injury. Bernard Hinault damaged his knee tendons in a stage of the 1983 Tour of Spain because his mechanic set his saddle less than 5mm too high. It was a mountain stage, iirc, so the load on the knee was high. It was enough to cause him to miss the 1983 Tour de France after having undergone an operation to repair the damage. He spent the next year getting back to his former level. I have always wondered how he didn't notice that his saddle was too high but I've never been able to ask him. I'd notice if my saddle was mis-adjusted by a few mm and I am nothing compared to what he was on the bike.
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Re: Changes coming for Lionel's Equipment [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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It's likely that there were a lot of limitations because of the bike.

I think starting over with a smaller frame and TriRig bars has a chance of making a difference. Certainly there are "free" watts just on the equipment.

But it is also possible that he's going to introduce weight distribution issues, or have to push his saddle back significantly, which could change muscular recruitment. Then he may need to consider circus cranks to counteract that bit. It could be complicated, and will require a lot of iteration.
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Re: Changes coming for Lionel's Equipment [chicanery] [ In reply to ]
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So a small frame may help with getting lower but it's going to hurt him on his reach, even with a tri rig bar. His elbows are already right over top the axle. I can only imagine a small frame is going to negatively impact handling.
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Re: Changes coming for Lionel's Equipment [chicanery] [ In reply to ]
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I think he will need a longer FC if he goes to small...personal opinion from someone who rides outside a bit more.

Having said that this the perfect opportunity for LG to look at their front end from the bars all the way down to variable fork options/brakes/hydration and/or variable rake or fork options for dentists or guys like LS.

2c
Maurice

http://www.multisportsolutions.com
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Re: Changes coming for Lionel's Equipment [chicanery] [ In reply to ]
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Based on the post photo on TriRig’s FB page with this announcement, the frame size is fine. The Alpha One should be able to get low enough for him.

He needs to get the pads back to his elbow, maybe some slight forearm tilt, and put the shifters in his hands.

Then, it’s just a matter of practice keeping his shoulders tight and head relaxed below his back.

Also, I think Lionel should ride a Jet 6 up front. At his high speeds, the difference in Jet 6 and 9 is very very small. The 6 will at least affect his steering less and allow him to stay aero more often and more confidentaly.

Finally, I bet Nick can modify the Alpha One nose cone cover to connect to the pivot bolts of the front TRP brake.

Alex Arman

Strava
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Re: Changes coming for Lionel's Equipment [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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That's why I assumed he would be pushing the saddle back. There isn't that much fore/aft adjustment on the TriRig, just the pad placement.

Geo charts say he's losing 17mm in reach and 24mm in stack at the frame. Add in the fact that he *could* use the ultra low TriRig mounts with various high-hand extensions and some tilt hardware under the pads, there might be a little more stack to reduce.

With his morphology, I don't think lower is the best answer, but getting his head down may not be possible any other way with his monster shoulders in the way and possibly limited flexibility.

Over and over, I am surprised when I find my "optimal" height and tilt on a bike, because my shoulders settle in and then my head drops like 3".
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Re: Changes coming for Lionel's Equipment [aerobean] [ In reply to ]
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After watching the video it just reinforces the stubbornness of the dude. If he had won the race he would be doing exactly"nothing" to change anything right now, even though he has been told by just about everyone who has his ear he needs to make some changes. He still doesn't really get it..

But since he got spanked on what could have been a record setting win for him(minus one particular person showing up) he is all in for making dozens fo changes now. I have said it before, just because someone wins a race, or gets best split, doesn't not mean they did it because they are optimized. Often it is in spite of that optimization, but they read into winning as going as fast as possible..

But then again, it is his stubborn streak that has kept him in the sport this long, and helped him do his 10,000 hours of indoor training. And I loved how he though it would be illegal or somehow cheating to take a picture of Frodo's bike..(-; It's all over this site, and a few others Lionel...
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Re: Changes coming for Lionel's Equipment [doublea334] [ In reply to ]
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That's a tall order on the Nose Cone. Those bolts are WAY down the fork legs.

Realistically, LG should take that on. Hopefully they have more access to legit CFD than TriRig does.
The headset bearing flares need to be handled properly, which is honestly not that easy.
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Re: Changes coming for Lionel's Equipment [chicanery] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, his shoulders are a huge frontal area. Watching some "turtling" tips on GCN, the British are huge into TT championships and finding ways to save watts. If you pinch the shoulders forward towards the neck and bring the elbows out just a bit, you get a big drop in frontal area and also more chest expansion for better breathing and a lower HR.

Looking at older photos of his bike, I remember he had a really long stem. I'd worry about going town a bike size requiring an even longer stem and that could cause steering issues and also a risk of equipment failure? I would just get a custom stem fabricated instead. Get one made with a bend in it.

Just googled some pics of Sanders on his bike. I know this is a one-off and a picture isn't what's going on all the time, but if he rides with his shoulders this wide often, it is a great opportunity to bring them in and reduce drag.



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Interviews with Jordan Rapp, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com
Last edited by: ZenTriBrett: Apr 16, 18 11:46
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Re: Changes coming for Lionel's Equipment [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
After watching the video it just reinforces the stubbornness of the dude. If he had won the race he would be doing exactly"nothing" to change anything right now, even though he has been told by just about everyone who has his ear he needs to make some changes. He still doesn't really get it..

But since he got spanked on what could have been a record setting win for him(minus one particular person showing up) he is all in for making dozens fo changes now. I have said it before, just because someone wins a race, or gets best split, doesn't not mean they did it because they are optimized. Often it is in spite of that optimization, but they read into winning as going as fast as possible..

But then again, it is his stubborn streak that has kept him in the sport this long, and helped him do his 10,000 hours of indoor training. And I loved how he though it would be illegal or somehow cheating to take a picture of Frodo's bike..(-; It's all over this site, and a few others Lionel...

I'm a biiiiig Lionel fan but had to shake my head at this video too. Really dude? As has been pointed out he has been to the velodrome to test, hell there's even a documentary about it. I thought he was taking that stuff seriously starting then?

I don't understand how he could not be obsessed with every little detail all of the time, constantly looking for more optimization. Hell almost all of us on here are and our paychecks don't depend on it.

Strava I Instagram
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Re: Changes coming for Lionel's Equipment [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Responding in general....

Lionel went to the velodrome and worked with Andy after kona 2015.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THupWtBb-A8

Go to ~7:30 into the video.

If he now feels that he needs to rework his bike (again), I am really wondering what the hell he has been doing/thinking since he went to the velodrome.
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Re: Changes coming for Lionel's Equipment [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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I've seen this with a few mates who went to get fancy fits that look great in the studio and some training rides... but in the heat of the moment, when they're pushing hard and fatigue sets in, they forget it all and choke the bars like they're holding on for dear life. Just because the pad X/Y allow for an optimal position, doesn't mean he actually holds it. In fact, in his hours of indoor riding, he might be imprinting a muscle memory of holding his bars wrong.

Lionel's equipment may not be best-in-class but none of it is terrible. The Garneau kit, helmet are top, as are the HEDs. I don't think he'll find his minutes there.

ZONE3 - We Last Longer
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