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Challenge Miami - Bike Course
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To my surprise, the bike course for Challenge Miami Pro race looks like this:

Each lap is 2.2 miles and they will be slowing down 3-4 times every lap due to sharp(ish) turns meaning they will be slowing down approximately 51-68 times in total. Does this mean the bike leg is draft legal? I was assuming it would be illegal to draft, but I can't find anything about it on the official race website. Also, I might overestimate the amount of slowing down needed to take these turns, but I would be surprised if we would not get the same situation as in Challenge Daytona, where it was next to impossible for the pros to hold themselves out of eachother's drafting zones. Thanks.
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Re: Challenge Miami - Bike Course [jondavid] [ In reply to ]
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The ex-ITU and UCI guys are high-fiving each other right now. Wattage spikes, handling challenges... Should make for a fun bike race for a change, and a less predictable run.

***
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Re: Challenge Miami - Bike Course [jondavid] [ In reply to ]
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While being a Lionel fan, I can already see the video where it completely surprised him how important it is to take the correct line around in the corners and how it ended up costing him time.

I don't know if I like that much cornering though
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Re: Challenge Miami - Bike Course [jondavid] [ In reply to ]
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jondavid wrote:
I was assuming it would be illegal to draft, but I can't find anything about it on the official race website. Also, I might overestimate the amount of slowing down needed to take these turns, but I would be surprised if we would not get the same situation as in Challenge Daytona, where it was next to impossible for the pros to hold themselves out of eachother's drafting zones. Thanks.


The Daytona website was also pretty scant on anti-drafting details (e.g. the 20-meter draft zone just wasn't in it - as fans we knew about it from the media and from people present in the PRO briefing).

Let me dissect.

1) There was some drafting in Daytona, complete with penalties, but I don't agree it was "next to impossible" to not draft. A few people, mainly ITU athletes with little to no 70.3 experience, were struggling.

2) I think that under ITU rules, and I'll make it an educated guess that under USAT rules also, it's OK to draft around sharp corners and switchbacks. (As there is no benefit to drafting in a situation like this anyway).

lassekk wrote:
While being a Lionel fan, I can already see the video where it completely surprised him how important it is to take the correct line around in the corners and how it ended up costing him time.


He's been training multiple surges during a threshold effort in preparation for Miami (as per his YouTube video released today, detailed even for his own standards), so it would have to be really really really Lionel-y for him to forget that you have to turn before you surge.

"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden
Last edited by: kajet: Mar 9, 21 4:40
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Re: Challenge Miami - Bike Course [jondavid] [ In reply to ]
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those "turns" aren't likely as sharp as you may think.
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Re: Challenge Miami - Bike Course [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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jkhayc wrote:
those "turns" aren't likely as sharp as you may think.

Not sure if you're implying there won't be any braking and surges out of the corners ? It's pretty clear from Google street view that bike handling in the turns will likely make or break your race.
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Re: Challenge Miami - Bike Course [writersblock12] [ In reply to ]
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writersblock12 wrote:
jkhayc wrote:
those "turns" aren't likely as sharp as you may think.


Not sure if you're implying there won't be any braking and surges out of the corners ? It's pretty clear from Google street view that bike handling in the turns will likely make or break your race.

My general rule of thumb has been whatever the posted speed for a corner is, a bike can usually take it at twice that. So unless these turns are so tight that the drivers have to slow to a crawl...

Back in the early '90s there was a road race and duathlon held on the Long Beach Grand Prix course, which did have some really tight corners. There was one turn that, while it didn't slow the riders much, the Mavic support car could not keep up through it and a few times actually tipped up on to 2 wheels...

"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"
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Re: Challenge Miami - Bike Course [writersblock12] [ In reply to ]
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writersblock12 wrote:
jkhayc wrote:
those "turns" aren't likely as sharp as you may think.

Not sure if you're implying there won't be any braking and surges out of the corners ? It's pretty clear from Google street view that bike handling in the turns will likely make or break your race.

What James said. It’s not as punchy as you think. The course is still a race track (even the parts with turns). If it’s technical for a bike course, it would be absolutely miserable as a race car driver (read: incredibly slow, tight, and unsafe). They wouldn’t design a race track like that.

There might be one corner on that course where you have to get out of the aero bars and tap the brakes but I’m questioning if that’s even needed.

blog
Last edited by: stevej: Mar 9, 21 16:53
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Re: Challenge Miami - Bike Course [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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+1 A course made for cars going 200 mph will not be a problem for bikes going 30 mph! This is the same problem of scale in play when people think a race has super big, steep climbs because of the compressed elevation profiles. So, when drawn at a scale of 1 inch = 1 miles turns are going to look tight :-)
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Re: Challenge Miami - Bike Course [IntenseOne] [ In reply to ]
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IntenseOne wrote:
+1 A course made for cars going 200 mph will not be a problem for bikes going 30 mph! This is the same problem of scale in play when people think a race has super big, steep climbs because of the compressed elevation profiles. So, when drawn at a scale of 1 inch = 1 miles turns are going to look tight :-)

The picture doesn’t look like the bikes are using the standard car racing oval. Unless I’m looking at the wrong thing.
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Re: Challenge Miami - Bike Course [IntenseOne] [ In reply to ]
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I'm going to agree with many others here, doesnt look like there will be any braking into these turns, so probably a resting opportunity to soft pedal through them at high speeds.

I can remember some criterium's I used to race back in the day, sharp 90 degree turns where we held nearly 30mph through them, some dudes actually pedaling most of them. It really was astounding how far you could lay those skinny tires down before actually breaking loose. Now of course with super deep race wheels it will be much more difficult, but I dont see these turns as anything close to a crit turn..
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Re: Challenge Miami - Bike Course [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
It really was astounding how far you could lay those skinny tires down before actually breaking loose. Now of course with super deep race wheels it will be much more difficult, but I dont see these turns as anything close to a crit turn..


how do deep race wheels negatively affect tire grip? modern race wheels, if anything, create far more grip potential, i'd think.
Last edited by: jkhayc: Mar 10, 21 9:50
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Re: Challenge Miami - Bike Course [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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Have you ever tried to lay a disc wheel down on a very sharp turn? I have, and it is nothing like a spoked wheel. It may be the gyro affect that causes it, I will let the numbers experts put it to actual math.
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Re: Challenge Miami - Bike Course [monty] [ In reply to ]
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maybe, but i've never raced a tri course that was really technically aggressive. but the wider the wheel the more grip potential a tire has, i'd believe. have def put deep aero wheels way over.
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Re: Challenge Miami - Bike Course [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
writersblock12 wrote:
jkhayc wrote:
those "turns" aren't likely as sharp as you may think.


Not sure if you're implying there won't be any braking and surges out of the corners ? It's pretty clear from Google street view that bike handling in the turns will likely make or break your race.


What James said. It’s not as punchy as you think. The course is still a race track (even the parts with turns). If it’s technical for a bike course, it would be absolutely miserable as a race car driver (read: incredibly slow, tight, and unsafe). They wouldn’t design a race track like that.

There might be one corner on that course where you have to get out of the aero bars and tap the brakes but I’m questioning if that’s even needed.

I recommend you watch a few of the BwB interviews to gain a bit some perspective on how technical many of the pros feel this bike race is and the slowdown that will occur in the corners.
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Re: Challenge Miami - Bike Course [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
writersblock12 wrote:
jkhayc wrote:
those "turns" aren't likely as sharp as you may think.


Not sure if you're implying there won't be any braking and surges out of the corners ? It's pretty clear from Google street view that bike handling in the turns will likely make or break your race.


What James said. It’s not as punchy as you think. The course is still a race track (even the parts with turns). If it’s technical for a bike course, it would be absolutely miserable as a race car driver (read: incredibly slow, tight, and unsafe). They wouldn’t design a race track like that.

There might be one corner on that course where you have to get out of the aero bars and tap the brakes but I’m questioning if that’s even needed.

Jan already talked about how windy the course is and it's effect. With deep section wheels it gives that wind extra surface area to hit.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Challenge Miami - Bike Course [writersblock12] [ In reply to ]
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writersblock12 wrote:
I recommend you watch a few of the BwB interviews to gain a bit some perspective on how technical many of the pros feel this bike race is and the slowdown that will occur in the corners.


Yes, I've been binging on Breakfast with Bob recently, and literally half of every interview is about the technicality of the course. Anyone wanting to opine on the course should watch at least one, seriously.

After my first ever experience in a velodrome a month ago, I certainly appreciate the brutality of having to climb up a ramp in order to pass someone, especially in a corner where it's steep.

The course is hard, but it doesn't have to give the strong bikers the edge they might normally be hoping for on a challenging route, because passing is bound to be difficult and costly. Sanders calls it a running race for this reason. He says you get 90 seconds of riding between sharp corners. Passing one person may be fine, but to get ahead of a whole paceline could get very very costly.

"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden
Last edited by: kajet: Mar 11, 21 0:35
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Re: Challenge Miami - Bike Course [jondavid] [ In reply to ]
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They won't be slowing down. There is a duathlon race on the Watkins Glen road course in NY (Fly-by-night). Its "technical" for NASCAR cars, but its not a big deal for a bike. Even the "sharp turns" are nothing on the bike, but then a bike is going under 30 and the car is going a lot faster in the sharp turns.

And: Unlike a bike course on the road. Its a race track so the pavement is awesome....
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Re: Challenge Miami - Bike Course [B.McMaster] [ In reply to ]
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I love how everyone has an opinion of this, who clearly hasn’t been on the track.

The turns might not be “technical” per a cyclist standard, but for many triathletes it is.

And the comment about the pavement being great clearly has not been on the road course. There is a good part of each turn where the pavement has gouges out of it and it is not smooth. The gouges happen to appear at the apex of each of the turns.

Handling will 100% be a factor in this, and ability to carry speed will be as well.

Rode on it this morning with many pros, and you can tell that many can not corner very well or maintain speed through them.
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Re: Challenge Miami - Bike Course [TurboVette] [ In reply to ]
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TurboVette wrote:
I love how everyone has an opinion of this, who clearly hasn’t been on the track. True - been on others and never had to use my breaks except coming into transition.

The turns might not be “technical” per a cyclist standard, but for many triathletes it is. Hopefully not the "pros".

And the comment about the pavement being great clearly has not been on the road course. There is a good part of each turn where the pavement has gouges out of it and it is not smooth. The gouges happen to appear at the apex of each of the turns. Fair - I just assumed a track in Florida would be in better shape than upstate NY. I guess the sun is worse for the track than the snow & ice.

Handling will 100% be a factor in this, and ability to carry speed will be as well. I'd hope so, but you can do that and not slow down. Same issue on any course I would assume unless racing a 1.5 mile oval or bigger (i.e. Vegas)

Rode on it this morning with many pros, and you can tell that many can not corner very well or maintain speed through them. OK - surprised. Perhaps they need their "pro card" pulled.


We need Jimmie to race it and give an opinion on which is harder - on a bike or in his "now retired" car.
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