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Chain Waxing - marginal gains and peace of mind on a subscription plan?
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I am currently discussing with a friend whether it is worthwhile to create a subscription plan for waxed chains.


Here is the problem: Waxed chains are expensive (Ceramic Speed UFO, Muc-Off NTC Nanotube, WEND Wax Factory, ...) and after a few kilometers (about 500km) the chains have to be treated with wax again. For many people this is expensive and annoying, although the advantages of a waxed chain are obvious.


Our solution:
Every 500km there is a new waxed chain by mail home.


This is how it works:
  • 1st delivery starter package: At the beginning you will get a starter package with two new chains and the necessary pliers to assemble the chains.
  • After 500km you send the driven chain 1 back to us (stamped shipping bag is included in the starter package) and install the second chain.
  • While you ride the second chain for another 500km, we will re-wax chain number 1 and send it back to you by mail.
  • You install the new chain and send the old one back for reconditioning and so on.



You will be billed monthly according to mileage plan (e.g. like iCloud based on storage capacity). For example 5.000km per year, 10.000km per year so you pay monthly for your consumption over the whole season (based on number of re-waxed chains).


What do you think? Would you want to have this subscription and what would it be worth to you?

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Re: Chain Waxing - marginal gains and peace of mind on a subscription plan? [roadtoroth21] [ In reply to ]
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Why wouldn't you just wax your own chains with Silca or Molten Speed wax? Way cheaper than buying a new waxed chain every time and doesn't take a ton of time.

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Re: Chain Waxing - marginal gains and peace of mind on a subscription plan? [roadtoroth21] [ In reply to ]
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Waxing a chain is so easy that this would have to be dirt cheap to be worth it. Like $3/chain cheap.

Rewaxing a chain is like making premade bread dough in an oven. Preheat the oven. put the dough in. Take it out when it's done. Virtually no work. Plus you can do multiple chains as once so you're good for awhile.

Strava
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Re: Chain Waxing - marginal gains and peace of mind on a subscription plan? [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
Why wouldn't you just wax your own chains with Silca or Molten Speed wax? Way cheaper than buying a new waxed chain every time and doesn't take a ton of time.


Agree and was going to post the same thing, but that said, there are a lot of people here who have stated they don't wax chains because they are too lazy, so....
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Re: Chain Waxing - marginal gains and peace of mind on a subscription plan? [roadtoroth21] [ In reply to ]
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Don't commit to anything in the beginning. Start with a landing page with a waitlist sign up – email field and that's it. Put a bit of money into social ads and post about it in various places online. You'll be able to gauge interest that way.


The above comments remind me of this post on HackerNews when Dropbox was just an idea: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863

"For a Linux user, you can already build such a system yourself quite trivially by getting an FTP account, mounting it locally with curlftpfs, and then using SVN or CVS on the mounted filesystem. From Windows or Mac, this FTP account could be accessed through built-in software."

Whoosh

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Last edited by: Staer: Nov 20, 20 5:22
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Re: Chain Waxing - marginal gains and peace of mind on a subscription plan? [roadtoroth21] [ In reply to ]
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It's a new chain every 7-10d yet I could see this viable for someone wanting to get into waxed chains like me. Although eventually I'd want to figure it all out for myself and athletes vs a subscription model.

I could see mtn biking and gravel as being HUGE markets for this

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Re: Chain Waxing - marginal gains and peace of mind on a subscription plan? [roadtoroth21] [ In reply to ]
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Chain wax is extremely inexpensive as it’s simply paraffin wax. Companies put other things in it to seem more luxurious and drive the price up, but the additives do next nothing.

A bag of molten speed wax will last you 50 or more waxings. Simply reuse the wax. It doesn’t degrade, or become worse, it’s just wax. It’s just a pain to reapply every 300 miles or so

Your profit margins would be huge if you find success in this

Strava
Last edited by: rsjrv99: Nov 20, 20 6:31
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Re: Chain Waxing - marginal gains and peace of mind on a subscription plan? [roadtoroth21] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not very optimistic that this would be successful. The same people that don't want to be bothered throwing their chain into a crock pot every couple of weeks or so also don't want to be bothered with swapping their chain every couple of weeks. I spend almost as much time swapping the chain as I do actually putting the chain into the crock pot and hanging it up afterwards. Plus when you get started with wax you need to have clean chainrings, cogs, and pulleys, so there's still some significant set up work at the start.

I think those folks still think it's easier to wipe the chain off and add some lube every now and then.

It might have some chance of success if you could spin it as a speed enhancement rather than a time saver.
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Re: Chain Waxing - marginal gains and peace of mind on a subscription plan? [roadtoroth21] [ In reply to ]
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fwiw I pay $15 for rewaxing at my lbs because I cannot be bothered to do it myself. I also let the mileage go way up between rewaxings. In the summer it might be 2months or upwards of 1k miles.

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Re: Chain Waxing - marginal gains and peace of mind on a subscription plan? [roadtoroth21] [ In reply to ]
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How much are you thinking of charging?

Even at $10+shipping, I don't think there is much market for this. Most people don't care about having their chain waxed. And the ones that do, can easily do it themselves.
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Re: Chain Waxing - marginal gains and peace of mind on a subscription plan? [rsjrv99] [ In reply to ]
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"Chain wax is extremely inexpensive as it’s simply paraffin wax" while this is sort of true, in fact the wax that Molten and Silca use is a different grade of paraffin wax used for lab purposes and it is actually quite expensive. Look up the price for Histology wax. It is many times more expensive than the regular paraffin you can buy at the grocery store for canning. The reason is it has been refined to a narrow boiling range and so is more pure than the other waxes out there.

I also do not agree the additives do nothing, tungsten disulfide has been shown in numerous peer reviewed research publications to have a significant impact on friction.

However I have used the grocery store paraffin and no additives and it works just fine for me. They may not give me that added fraction of a % gain in wattage but I don't care that much, I just want a clean chain that does not pick up sand and grit when I ride the gravel in my area. For that it has been flawless.

So I agree the idea could work for those who would 1- be the client to buy a prewaxed chain from any of the multiple vendors out there that sell them, 2- those that want a less costly way to get a waxed chain but don't want the hassle to get the stuff to do it themselves.

I hope the idea goes well since it does sound interesting, not to me because I already wax my chain but from the point of view of those who want a less expensive option to have waxed chains.
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Re: Chain Waxing - marginal gains and peace of mind on a subscription plan? [indianacyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, and the ones that don't want to melt, can just squirt it on.

I think maybe there could be a market for pre-stripped chains at a small premium over factor chains. The initial stripping is the hardest part.

It's been done. But most examples I've seen recently have been pretty nutty on price. $100 is too much.
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Re: Chain Waxing - marginal gains and peace of mind on a subscription plan? [roadtoroth21] [ In reply to ]
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How would you handle different chain lengths? Not all bikes require the same number of links. Some people are 1x, some are 2x, some might even still be 3x. Derailleurs have different cage sizes and/or OSPWs. Some people have 11-23 cassettes and others will have 10x50. I guess you can have the customer select the number of links, but then you'd have to initially purchase multiple chains in a variety of sizes, and that would drive your initial price up to get the business started.

You'd also have people putting your nice clean/newish chains on their chainrings and cassettes that are drenched in yucky old wet lube, so you'd potentially have to re-clean the chains, which adds time.

You'd also have people putting your good chain on bikes with worn out cassettes. Not only could that impact the wear rate on your chains, but they could also experience slipping/skipping under power. That wouldn't be your fault, but i could see you having all the blame cast on you in reviews of your company.

Just a few things to think about. Personally, I think re-waxing a chain is easier than having to throw one in a bag and mail it to you. I wouldn't be a subscriber. But i also think there are a lot of people out there who have heard the benefits of waxed chains feel overwhelmed reading about the process, so they just avoid them. There are also people who forgot to replace their chain and ended up with hundreds of dollars of expenses when they finally went to the LBS and needed a complete drivetrain overhaul. People who want to avoid that expensive mistake may be interested in a subscription chain service where they always have a clean and fast chain that isn't wearing down their other components.
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Re: Chain Waxing - marginal gains and peace of mind on a subscription plan? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:


I think maybe there could be a market for pre-stripped chains at a small premium over factor chains. The initial stripping is the hardest part.

THIS! As a lot of people are saying, re-wax is really easy.

Now, if I could order a brand new dura ace or ultegra chain pre-stripped, I'd pay a $10-15 premium to avoid doing it myself. One less piece of equipment to buy, less chemicals to dispose of every time, and this process takes a lot longer for those of us that don't own (or want to own) an ultra sonic cleaner.
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Re: Chain Waxing - marginal gains and peace of mind on a subscription plan? [roadtoroth21] [ In reply to ]
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don't forget that you also run into other issues that'll eat at your bottom line. Master links on 11-speed chains are marked as non-reusable. I'm sure many of us get a bunch of reuses out of them anyway, but if you're running a business then the expectation is that you supply a new master link every time. You'll also have to check the chains for wear and given that a lot of people continue riding their chains and are hardly ever bothered to replace them until things start going sideway, you're going to have a lot of reticent people thinking you're just trying to bilk them out of money by insisting chains are at end of life much sooner than they anticipate
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Re: Chain Waxing - marginal gains and peace of mind on a subscription plan? [BevK] [ In reply to ]
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BevK wrote:
Now, if I could order a brand new dura ace or ultegra chain pre-stripped, I'd pay a $10-15 premium to avoid doing it myself. One less piece of equipment to buy, less chemicals to dispose of every time, and this process takes a lot longer for those of us that don't own (or want to own) an ultra sonic cleaner.

I agree with this. I'm not sure if someone could get things down to this price. I'm guessing this would look something like buy a bunch of new chains, soak them overnight in degreaser (one that doesn't cause hydrogen embrittlement!) to get factory grease off, then you probably need to wash them again a couple times because that stuff is persistent. Then you need to rinse them in alcohol.

That burns through a lot of degreaser. I know you can distill your used solvent to recycle it, but you'd need to get more equipment.

And you're skipping the break in process. Maybe you can just skip it to get the cost down, but Adam Kerin seems to think this is pretty important (his theory is that the chain will shed a lot of metal in the first few kilometers, which will contribute to chain wear). MSW doesn't seem to offer a chain that has not been broken in. But, maybe this is a first world problem sort of thing, and a bike store could easily strip the grease off chains if they did them in bulk for $15. I'm pretty sure I'd pay up to $25, considering the chains will last a fair bit longer. At MSW's price, I start to maybe have some second thoughts, but I could see doing it anyway.

FWIW, both Josh Poertner and MSW seem to say that an ultrasonic cleaner is not necessary, and that repeated shakes in a bottle will suffice. Don't let that stop you from getting one if you want one, but I'm inclined to agree.
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Re: Chain Waxing - marginal gains and peace of mind on a subscription plan? [jazzymusicman] [ In reply to ]
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jazzymusicman wrote:
don't forget that you also run into other issues that'll eat at your bottom line. Master links on 11-speed chains are marked as non-reusable. I'm sure many of us get a bunch of reuses out of them anyway, but if you're running a business then the expectation is that you supply a new master link every time. You'll also have to check the chains for wear and given that a lot of people continue riding their chains and are hardly ever bothered to replace them until things start going sideway, you're going to have a lot of reticent people thinking you're just trying to bilk them out of money by insisting chains are at end of life much sooner than they anticipate


Wippermann chains with reusable Connex link solves the problem.
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Re: Chain Waxing - marginal gains and peace of mind on a subscription plan? [roadtoroth21] [ In reply to ]
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roadtoroth21 wrote:
Here is the problem: Waxed chains are expensive
That's brutal.


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Re: Chain Waxing - marginal gains and peace of mind on a subscription plan? [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]
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jimatbeyond wrote:
jazzymusicman wrote:
don't forget that you also run into other issues that'll eat at your bottom line. Master links on 11-speed chains are marked as non-reusable. I'm sure many of us get a bunch of reuses out of them anyway, but if you're running a business then the expectation is that you supply a new master link every time. You'll also have to check the chains for wear and given that a lot of people continue riding their chains and are hardly ever bothered to replace them until things start going sideway, you're going to have a lot of reticent people thinking you're just trying to bilk them out of money by insisting chains are at end of life much sooner than they anticipate



Wippermann chains with reusable Connex link solves the problem.
So I ran a connex link on both mine and Summer's bike, and after a few hundred miles we started having chain skipping issues. I basically replaced everything before even considering the idea that it was the quick link. Super frustrating, eventually swapped to a masterlink and it was instantly fixed. Was a bummer cause I was a fan of the convenience. Still not sure why that was causing it.

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Re: Chain Waxing - marginal gains and peace of mind on a subscription plan? [roadtoroth21] [ In reply to ]
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The other thing you have to think about is that people are dumb, so you have to engineer your process around people who will do dumb things. Improperly removed chains, excessively worn chains, customers sending back the wrong chain, applying incompatible lubes to waxed chains, etc.

There’s probably a market, but it will be pretty niche and the prices you’ll have to charge will make it even more so. I can’t imagine that this is viable as a standalone business. I do see that it could be an add on service for some of the boutique manufacturers , eg premier tactical, centrum, Parlee, etc

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Re: Chain Waxing - marginal gains and peace of mind on a subscription plan? [roadtoroth21] [ In reply to ]
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Wow, thanks a lot for all the comments, tips and criticism. It all sounds useful and we have a valuable discussion.

Privately I ordered MSW, a slowcocker and ultrasonic cleaner and the first chains. Let's see how it goes on with that.

I wish everyone a good start into the weekend!

Road To Roth 2021
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Last edited by: roadtoroth21: Nov 20, 20 14:42
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Re: Chain Waxing - marginal gains and peace of mind on a subscription plan? [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
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realbdeal wrote:
jimatbeyond wrote:
jazzymusicman wrote:
don't forget that you also run into other issues that'll eat at your bottom line. Master links on 11-speed chains are marked as non-reusable. I'm sure many of us get a bunch of reuses out of them anyway, but if you're running a business then the expectation is that you supply a new master link every time. You'll also have to check the chains for wear and given that a lot of people continue riding their chains and are hardly ever bothered to replace them until things start going sideway, you're going to have a lot of reticent people thinking you're just trying to bilk them out of money by insisting chains are at end of life much sooner than they anticipate



Wippermann chains with reusable Connex link solves the problem.

So I ran a connex link on both mine and Summer's bike, and after a few hundred miles we started having chain skipping issues. I basically replaced everything before even considering the idea that it was the quick link. Super frustrating, eventually swapped to a masterlink and it was instantly fixed. Was a bummer cause I was a fan of the convenience. Still not sure why that was causing it.

Did it happen to start giving you issues after you removed to clean and re-install? The Wipperman links are directional. If you put them on reversed, they skip in the smaller gears in the back.
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Re: Chain Waxing - marginal gains and peace of mind on a subscription plan? [roadtoroth21] [ In reply to ]
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roadtoroth21 wrote:
Wow, thanks a lot for all the comments, tips and criticism. It all sounds useful and we have a valuable discussion.

Privately I ordered MSW, a slowcocker and ultrasonic cleaner and the first chains. Let's see how it goes on with that.

I wish everyone a good start into the weekend!


Same setup I have, think I have the same US cleaner they show on their site, or very similar. I usually shake in mineral spirits first, then the US to finish it, rinse, dry, into the slow cooker. I've been using KMC silver chains for years, knock on wood no issues, always re used links, etc
Last edited by: SBRcanuck: Nov 20, 20 14:47
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Re: Chain Waxing - marginal gains and peace of mind on a subscription plan? [roadtoroth21] [ In reply to ]
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I think there's a market for something like this, even if it's not a subscription service.

For example, Wattshop already offers a chain waxing service:
https://www.shopforwatts.co.uk/collections/cratus/products/customer-supplied-chain-for-cratus-waxing

Plus, look at the markup for the pre-waxed chains out there. It's much higher than what some people on this thread are willing to pay, but there is clearly a market for it, with multiple companies competing.
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Re: Chain Waxing - marginal gains and peace of mind on a subscription plan? [roadtoroth21] [ In reply to ]
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I'm looking forward to this episode of Dragon's Den / Shark Tank. Should be a good laugh.

Seriously, if people are too incompetent to wax a chain at home (which is neither expensive nor annoying) then they're probably not capable of using a chain tool to remove their original chain. It would take me more time to go to the post office than I spend in effort waxing.
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