How much is that “team” related vs individual contracts like it likely is with pro triathletes?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Yeah, I think I had this same argument with you a year ago or so. :)

Yes, it's all about teams, etc. I'm not arguing how or why - because I'm sure there's all sorts of justifications, etc - just pointing out how it is because it never ceases to surprise me. I'm just pulling back the zoom lens and looking big picture: cyclists generally get free stuff, triathletes generally don't unless they're the cream of the crop.

Teams vs. individuals, media, view-a-ability of the sport, etc. Why it sucks to be a pro triathlete any less successful than the top 1% of pros is probably a whole other thread.

What i really don't get is why bike racing is seen as a significantly better investment. Not like they get much more exposure than triathletes, so regardless of individual vs team, why do so many more of them get free stuff?

I'd love to read that thread, especially if we can get the input of some companies that sponsor both cyclists and triathletes.

Triathlon is much smaller than road racing. Companies don’t invest that much into it.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Road racing has exponentially more exposure than triathlon. It is an absolute major sport in Europe, with significant broadcasting packages. The Giro/TDF/Classics/Worlds champs etc are all major TV events. There are entire dedicated ecosystems within the media for cycling. This includes TV exposure on major networks, write ups in major newspapers, and specific media sources such as GCN who do lots of videos going over riders/setup/interviews etc. Finally, the actual sport of cycling allows for better sponsor exposure, longer races that are actually televised. Also the frequency of racing means even more chances for sponsor awareness. The team aspect in cycling can be a boon for companies as well for R&D. These teams have professional mechanics who can help work on testing equipment over the course of a season.

A similar corollary to this is running shoes. Likewise, the number of good runners who pay for shoes is very small. But the number of top pro triathletes who do is quite high. And here the team aspect is not relevant. But virtually every shoe company gives shoes to runners who are, relatively, not nearly of the same caliber as pro triathletes who they would never consider. In the sporting goods industry, professional triathlon is just seen as very niche/marginal. And I'm not sure they are wrong. It's less that they should sponsor triathletes and more that I don't understand why they give a lot of people running shoes.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Sure. But I'm talking about the US market, and even more specifically lower level teams and junior/masters racers. Almost none of that applies, and yet people still get free stuff.

Well nothings changed in the year lol. Add in the fact that cyclist race a ton more than triathletes that the ROI just really is not there.

I work for a tri shop on east coast. They’ve wanted to get in on the “cycling” side of the sport so they actually sponsored the local top cycling team in our area. Because of the volume of team members they actually get bigger discounts than even some of the “AG elite” triathlete team members (that only is about 8-10 athletes per year) that the same shop sponsors.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Yeah, I was going to mention Canyon is discounting bikes to pro's but other than Jan, Tolansky, maybe a few others they aren't giving away equipment. Also, here is a German wind tunnel test of Cervelo, Canyon, Felt, and Aargon. Spoiler alert, you are right Jordan, Cervelo still wins the day bit at yaw that Felt really pops.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

How many runners are "tied" to a local running scene....and are seen what weekly at runs? I'm guessing a lot. Or atleast they are "known" as the badass runners. Here in Raleigh, we have some pretty damn fast high level American runners and I know I see them plugging weekly on social media the local run shops/runs. It seems very much more "organic" in nature.

How often did you as a pro triathlete participate in anything local as far as training? Hell look at the social media posts of most even low level pro triathletes, and it's very individualistic training, right? Maybe they partake in the local group ride, but I dont think pro's are "connected" to their local communities like I think runners are.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

You're in T.O. so did you move to the LBC?

Didn't know I had shared with you what my relationship and partnership was with Cervelo, but nice of you to assume things. Feel free to message me privately and I am more than happy to let you know what the actual arrangement was, because what you state above is false.

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-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
Partnered with: Zoot Sports | Precision Fuel &Hydration | ISM

All good points here. There were a few reasons going to Canyon for me, and you hit on a few of them. I wouldn't say it had much to do with Frodo/Lange riding them. It had more to do with things not progressing with Cervelo and wanting to continue to be able to build business relationships/partnerships in the sport. With Canyon being new to the US, it was not surprising at the lack of budget at the moment. So even having a buy a bike in the early stages (even more so at my level) wasn't a bad business decision in my opinion. Furthermore, being able to partner with them personally as well as with our coaching business was a big plus and something we hope to continue to be able to build on.

As for which bike is "faster", we discussed that in the wind tunnel thread. Really hard to say, as you mentioned was NOT a controlled test and the bikes were not set up the same, let along even the same size.

And yes, continuing to get harder and harder as a pro triathlete, think you made a very wise decision at jumping at the opportunity that was presented to you.

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-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
Partnered with: Zoot Sports | Precision Fuel &Hydration | ISM

Well, kudos to you!

In the local road cycling scene the number of people riding Cervelo road bikes has definitely dropped by a huge amount. 10 years ago Cervelo bikes were the cool bikes to have, now on our fast group rides no one rides Cervelo anymore. Lots of Cannondale, Trek and Specialized. Interestingly none of the local bike shops seems to be pushing to sell Cervelo anymore. The authorized dealers have some models in stock but it's nowhere near what it used to be several years ago.

From someone who is not elite and not an "insider", one has to wonder why Quintana Roo has not been mentioned in any of the previous posts. Their website mentions "sponsoring" 12 athletes. This company is frequently represented at the expo's at the "name" races/events. They receive favorable feedback from multiple "Jane and Joe Sixpacks". It is possible (the non-elite) at certain times to obtain one of their bikes/frames at a significant discounted price. The aero data/specification of their bikes/frame is good enough for anyone. Can't ask for more.

Quintana Roo bikes lack a ‘cool’ factor. They are pricey and come across as bland in design. I feel riding a QR makes any athlete immediately uninteresting. I am probably totally not giving the brand the credit it deserves but on the other hand, no cool triathlete rides a QR....

QR doesnt have that history of appealing bikes behind them imo. Nor have they created that bike which makes you go 'wow'. The speedmax is a wow bike. Speed concept the same. Looks, tests well, huge backing by a popular name. Its not to say QR bikes are bad, but it doesnt have that wow factory or p3 type of history to build on.

Fre Van Lierde still seems to be sponsored by Cervelo. I would have thought the Wurtele’s are a better sponsorship opportunity than Van Lierde - who is not very active at promoting the brands he’s sponsored by.

Peak Aero means that there hasn't been an appreciable improvement in aerodynamics of Cervelos top end bike since 2009. It doesn't mean that all bikes are equal. If all bikes were equal aero, adjustability, weight (performance factors) then I'd look for tie breakers that were less tangible. Available data still says that we're far from that point.

Cervelo is a small company, sponsoring DDD would be sucking up pretty much everything in their sponsorship budget. Pinarello dumped all their independent athletes a few years ago to retain SKY against Specializeds offer so it's not without precedent. Specialized dumped most of their triathletes only a couple of years ago because the tri tea leaves were not good.

And I think it's worth considering what counts as investment in the sport. One 6ish year old tri bike model (Shiv) vs Cervelo creating a couple of new ones in that time - which company is approaching the sport from an ROI perspective and which is all in?

Canyon can afford massive sponsorship because they are a big brand with high margins (from disrupting traditional channels). They have to persuade you with pics of pro athletes riding their bikes as you can't go touch one in store and get a spiel from the sales guy. I expect to see them running fairly short (which these days just means less than 5 years) development cycles for tri. They create community feel with direct consumer contact, vs the traditional model of stores and local teams creating the community. Far better business model to control that relationship.

Of course. We have a wealth of variety to choose among, all according to whatever we value most. By "peak aero" I just mean that if you want to check the "got a really fast TT bike" box, there are plenty of options. P5, SC, IA, CF SLX...and on and on. Back in 2009 that was a much shorter list.

Your thoughts on Canyon echo mine. Canyon is definitely disrupting the bike industry.

I don't know. That's a good question.

My opinion based on observation but not direct personal experience is there seems to be two main factors.

One as others have mentioned is the team aspect. With most teams, you have one or two people that are going out and getting sponsors to give cash or products to the team in exchange for name placement on kits and social media exposure, etc. I'd say that the majority of these teams aren't getting free bikes from manufacturers, but rather are getting buying them at cost using the sponsor cash and then letting the team members ride them for the season (I bet the team sells some/all of them after a season or two to make some of the cost back).

This first team factor relates to the second factor and I'd guess is why more sponsors give money to bike teams - more exposure. If you have 10 athletes representing your brand and they are doing 40 or 50 races a year, you're going to get a lot more exposure in bike racing than triathlon. Heck most of the local races around where I live are three race weekends, and some guys are racing just about every weekend during the season. That's a lot more exposure than doing one or two big races a year.

You're exactly right on the first point. That's the typical model for most teams. Only the really big teams probably get completely free bikes. Only sometimes the deal is better than "at cost."

I could be wrong but Cervelo bikes always seem pretty pricey compared to Cannondale, Specialized, but maybe not Trek. I always feel like I could go into a Cannondale, Specialized, Giant bike shop and get a very good bike without breaking my bank so I would always expect to see more of those bikes on a group ride. But maybe the fast group rides are a little different in that aspect.