King Richard may now be clean, but it's all there in black and white about the (very) recent past. What's worse is that he lied and pretty much stabbed a so-called friend in the back. That is the worse offense in my book. Maybe Larry should read "Breaking the Chain" first.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

I am normally right there with you, on this one however I think he's shown himself to be a great rider clean. I wish that he'd ridden clean before and I know that because everyone else is doing something does not mean we all should but I am happy for him to come back and show how good he really is and could have been.

hi cathy,

in every story there are two sides...you had the side of willy voet, not the side of virenque.
he made a mistake, was ill-advised, dug himself into a hole, was punished for it, and now is seeking for redemption.
everyone deserves a second chance...

besides, we are talking about using drugs in sports...ok, it's cheating, but he didn't commit murder or rape.

Sure, give him a second chance. He rode great the day he won in the Alpes. I just don't like the guy, BFD. I didn't use to like Tyler all that much, but he has totally redeemed himself in my eyes. Lots of people don't like Lance still. It's called an opinion. My point was the unfettered adoration of a confirmed ex-cheater by the vast majority of the French. Same thing happens here too--look at many NBA or NFL stars. ;-)

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

"he made a mistake, was ill-advised, dug himself into a hole, was punished for it, and now is seeking for redemption."

is he seeking redemption? i missed that.

he's allowed to make a living in his sport again. but did he ever really come clean and admit exactly what he did? here in the U.S., pete rose stiil can't make a living in baseball after decades after he bet on the sport, and only because he won't stipulate to what he did.

i'm glad for him that virenque can race again. but is he seeking redemption, or just the polka dot jersey? until he really comes clean and admits what he did to himself, his sport, its sponsors, its fans, and his teammates, i think it's fair to cast aspersions on him, and also to speculate as to what his current level of honesty is.

i read willy voet's book, and also virenque's side, which at the time and for some time after was, "i didn't do anything." i don't know how much of a mea culpa virenque has offered more recently. when virenque writes his OWN book, telling exactly what it is he did, apologizing, and crusading for a clean sport, i'll buy his book, read it, and become a virenque fan. until then, i must assume he just paid his (very light) penalty, and can race again, but hasn't really had a change of heart.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

yes, he did admit everything publicly on national channel...is that enough of admitting for you??

he said he was sorry he lied to his sponsors (haha,...like they don't know) to the medias, and above all to his fans.

it's not because it was not on US media that it does not exist.

I personnally don't like him much, but I don't like that people get badmouthed like that too.

he made a mistake, admitted his guilt, asked everyone to forgive him, and he should be...

Hi Francois,

Well, Cathy did not call Tricky Ricky a murderer or a rapist, she called him a dope - which he is, in both senses of the word, in my view.

I'm all for redemption, forgiveness, and second chances. And Virenque has had more than his fair share of all three. Cathy's reminder of where he's been is a nice counter-balance to all the current talk of his courageous climbing.

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TonyG

What is Enoch Root?

Compared to some, Virenque is spotless. Think of Frank "they're for my dog" VdB and Raimondas "Mother-in-law" Rumsas.

He did it, denied it for a while and eventually came clean, served his time, and is now doing well again. It's also not like he was the only one on the special sauce anyway.

I'm happy that he's back in the Maillot Pois. Even if you don't like him, he is an entertaining, aggressive rider, and that, after all, is what the tour is all about.

Both in this specific case and in general, are riders taking something like speed the day of the race or does the dope problem lean more to a steriod type drug?

If it is a muscle building drug, how can you ever welcome them back into pro sports? Won't they always be benefitting from their ill gotten gains?

what have Anquetil, Merckx, Indurain and Lance have in common?
they all have tested positive to "something" once in their career...

Anquetil, technically no. because there was no test until 1968 I believe, but when asked about doping he said "you don't win the tour on water" and admitted of using stimulants among other things. that said, at this time, it was not forbidden, so he was not cheating.

Merckx was thrown out of his first giro. he argued he never used anything and someone must have added something to his drinks...is that a better excuse than Virenque? After all, he never tested positive during or out of competition...

Indurain was tested positive to salbutamol (asthma med, as he is legally allowed to use some for severe allergies, the reason you would never see him before may)...but the amount (there was no limit back then) was like emptying 4 inhalers at once...(not litterally, just to give an idea, that it was way higher than what is normal when using an inhaler)

Lance tested positive to corticosteroids in the tour 99 or 2000, not sure. he argued that it was a cream preparation used for saddle sores that contained corticosteroids...thing is once it is inside you can't tell if it came with an injection or a cream. the cream is legal, once it has been approved by the doc. of the tour, gerard portes. Lance didn't do it, and used it directly. technically, he could have been throwin out of the tour...

in each case, everyone simply trusted the word of that person, because the medias didn't harass them continuously for a year (even though Lance had a second episode with the french police -which incidentally, was perfectly legal as to date, there are still 2 plastic bags containing actogevin and other products that have been thrown in a bin some 20mi away from the hotel of the USPS by USPS personnel-)

Only Merckx was sanctionned in this case (out of the giro). All the others were cleared.

Virenque was certainly ill-advised (and I don't think he is very smart either) and suffered the consequences...but the A-M-I and L all haven't lost any support, and I believe it is fair that Virenque enjoys the same attitude from his fans...

All sorts of crap. I don't have the book in front of me, but my friend is a physician and she was bug eyed at all the crap they injected--steriods, amphetamines, EPO, growth hormone, other stuff. Then there is the 'Belgian mix', a melange of cocaine, morphine, heroine and amphetamines.

One night someone in the group mentioned that the average age of death of some group former cyclists (I don't remember exactly--former Tour riders?) was something like 51 or 52 years old.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

"yes, he did admit everything publicly on national channel...is that enough of admitting for you??"

i didn't say he didn't come clean. i said i haven't seen it, other than a tearful press conference under the duress of not being able to land a spot on a top category team without some sort of mea culpa.

as to whether it's enough for me, i guess i'd have to read what he's actually said that i haven't seen. he denied it for so long that i guess i just lost interest in following his career anymore, i was just pretty disappointed with him.

we all carry around our social "rules" and the "exceptions" to those rules. would it be right to say that, according to you, a guy who gets caught cheating in sport is expected to be forgiven and we're EXPECTED to assume his innocence, as long as he eventually admits his guilt? but if virenque was a pedophile would it be socially acceptable to assume he can NEVER reform?

i'll let you all make your own decisions as to whether virenque -- and anyone else -- is worthy of your trust. but i personally don't see anything wrong with cathy morgan, or anyone else, still holding in derision someone who was a cheater of the highest order, irrespective of whether he (or rumsas, frigo, or anyone else), has served a 3mo., 6mo., 1yr or 2yr suspension.

or, if you want to completely forgive and forget, i've got no problem with that either.

i haven't seen anything read-worthy from virenque. willy voet didn't make national american news either, i hope whatever virenque writes will come to my attention as well, as i expect it would when he writes it NOT under the duress of not being able to land on a team.

what i do think is pretty weak is any attempt to equate, or elevate, virenque's blatant and transparent drug taking by dragging down the reputation of other riders that you suspect might have been positive. virenque cheated. blatantly. best to just leave it at that, and to hope that he serves out the rest of his career in a way that is accretive to the best interest of cycling, and in so doing earn back the respect of those who follow the sport (perhaps me and cathy included).

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"what i do think is pretty weak is any attempt to equate, or elevate, virenque's blatant and transparent drug taking by dragging down the reputation of other riders that you suspect might have been positive"

it is not an attempt...there is no suspiscion they were positive. They actually WERE. they did test positive...the 4 quoted above did test positive.

"it is not an attempt...there is no suspiscion they were positive. They actually WERE. they did test positive...the 4 quoted above did test positive."

there are a LOT of positive tests, if what you call a "positive" is that someone's A and/or B sample comes up positive for a banned substance. one example is karen smyers, who some years ago had a positive test for opium in exceedingly small amounts. it was determined that this came from eating poppy seed muffins.

under such conditions, it is generally not considered by those in sport a "positive test," because that term carries with it an assumption of guilt (whether cheating was intended or not) and requires the penalty associated with it.

yes, salbutamol is banned, in two cases. it is banned in oral form, and inhaled without a doctor's note. it is only under EXCEEDINGLY speculative conditions that one might consider salbutamol to have an anabolic effect, as it has only been shown in ONE canadian study to have been the case. furthermore, it is always clenbuterol, or some other very much stronger beta-2-agonist, that one will usually be caught, as was the case with a couple of east german (T&F) sprinters more than a decade ago. if one was to actually try to gain an anabolic effect from a beta-2-agonist one would use something other than salbutamol, and one would probably take it in pill form. this is why indurain was not given any sort of sanction, and rightly so.

as for lance's corticosteroid, it is universally considered that a ration of catabolic steroids would actually be counterproductive to an athlete. it is fairly easy to have a topical corticosteroid show up in the blood if it was applied to saddle sores. taking it internally for anything other than a very small period of time would have the same sort of effect on lance as his chemotherapy. this is why, even though it would only gain entry to the bloodstream in very small doses, asthmatic athletes have to be careful with their ration of inhaled corticosteroids.

so i don't think it's appropriate to equate what comes up on a sample as a "positive test" unless it is something that results in some sort of disciplinary action (or unless the failure to result in such action is the blatant attempt of a governing body to shield their athletes from a penalty, as has been alleged to be the case with USAT&F).

i'm sorry if i mis-wrote. i didn't intend to accuse you of falsely stating the facts about drug tests. i accused you of trying to elevate virenque by dragging other honest athletes down to his level.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

LarryLamb,I am to much a newbe to offer seious analisis,however...Your opinion is a character attack,past opinion. If you have lurcked here often enoughand seen the posts of Cathy Morgan you will find that though you have a difference of opinion that there is no reason to say anything about this womens character.She spoke her belief.I have no problem of any part of your post except "We do not need people like Her"...I disagree. "WE DO NEED" PEOPLE LIKE HER(Exuse me Women like her). We might not all agree. Thank you Kenney

virenque rode great when he was doped. he lied and cried and wrote a book. now he says he is clean. now he is begining to ride like he did when he was doped. how is he able to ride as great clean as he was when he was doped? did the drugs have no effect on him? was he taking them just to fit in?

cathy has every right to say what she said. i like people who actually have an opion. cathy keep it up! you greatness.

larry, virenque is as much a digrace as vdb and if either stop riding i will do a silly french jig and buy shiner bachs for all on the forum

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

I second the motion by CJ

Its actions like those of the Festina Affair, GIRO Raids and the "rehabilitation" of the poor misguided "Innocents" that were caught up that have IMHO given rise to the current actions on people like Rumsas et al

cry me a river

GO Cathy

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"on your Left"

Kenney,

I was not attacking anyone's character. Merely making a point, forgive me if the medium comes over a little terse. The "people like her" bit is actually a compliment if you read carefully. What I'm saying is that she is well informed, not one of the hoi polloi.

For the record, I never particularly liked Tricky Dicky but I think it is such a beautiful race this year that harsh dismissive criticism is out of place.

As for Tyler, I met him at the start of the final stage last year - he's a great guy. Very funny too.

Still it provoked an interesting debate ;-)

I enjoyed Cathy's Tour diary immensely. I rode up Alpe D'Huez two years ago - it took me 25 minutes longer than Lance!! Everyone should go - in fact it looks as though everyone did go this year.

are that intention actually has little to do with it.

If an athlete ingests something / uses something that results in a positive test then accordingly whether they did this intentionally or not they are still subject to the same punishment.

Three recent positives that spring to mind are the canadian triathlete that claims he's innocent, the US cyclist that tested positive earlier this year / late last year that said his result was from a supplement and the British Skier that won an Oly medal but tested positive from a nasal inhalent.

The UCI's standards have to meet the IOC's and from the way these other cases were handled the stand to date has generally been bad with scant regard to mitigating circumstances.

Oh and Tommy Simpson by all accounts had enough Drugs to kill a shetland pony when he died on the Ventoux? (Thats the rumor anyway.)

Thanks for the carity...My Bad

>>Still it provoked an interesting debate ;-)<<

I've been known to provoke a debate or two.....

Glad you enjoyed my reports. Wish I were still there!

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

virenque was asked by the french press, within the last 12 months, whether he would use drugs again if:

1) it would enable him to win tdf, and,

2) he wouldn't be caught.

he said yes.

at least he gave an honest answer then. Do you think that the vast majority of professional athletes don't feel the same way?

Precisely.

In fact, Virenque DID "write" a (ghost-written) book called "Ma Verite" (My Truth). It bears very little relationship to anything that anyone other than Virenque would call the truth.

In it, he basically demonstrated a huge capacity for denial in the face of overwhelming evidence -- it was apparently a hit with gullible pre-teens and Virenque-smitten French housewives, though few others.

I would suggest anyone who has any doubts about the facts try to get a copy of the French-language version of Voet's "Breaking the Chain" ("Massacre a la Chaine" i.e, Chainsaw Massacre -- a much better title). It has one little treasure trove the English version doesn't: photos of all the daily doping records for the products administered to Virenque and his teammmates (dates, dosage, etc.) -- literally the accounting 'balance sheet' which was used to determine how much each rider should remiburse the kitty for doping products administered to them over the course of the season.

Virenque's entries show a particularly keen appetite for illegal doping products.

If I saw any sincere chagin or remorse, I might be willing to view him as a semi-rehabilitated druggie/cheat. Til then, the nouns apply but the preceding adjective doesn't...