Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile?

Jun 25, 06 10:21

Post #1 of 238 (12619 views)

I am in my second full year of solid training now and am in the FOP of my AG, but want to continue to improve and perhaps take a couple podiums in the overall class.

I am a good swimmer, consistantly getting out of the water with the leaders without too much effort (read: I feel pretty fresh running up the beach and know that I could have gone harder). I can hold my own on the bike getting passed by the top cyclists, but I am not too off the pace and usually am holding back for the run... where it all falls apart.

I seem only to be capeable of running a 7:30 mile. Stand alone or in a race it does not seem to matter. In sprints I gut out the first two miles at about 8:00 and can turn up the third. Trianing at OLY distance yields similar results. My 10K pb is only 42min and that does not include a 30sec break at the turn.

My buddy who is a former cross country runner with a 5:30 mile as his PB tells me that I need to start to do more speed work if I want to run with the fast movers in races. He recommends lots of 400 repeats on days when I am not trying to strech my distance out.

I am willing to do the work, but it seems like a big hill to climb dropping 2:00 off my mile times, and i feel like it would be easier to add 10 mph to my bike split at this point.

Have any of you dropped your mile splits this significantly? I am in pretty good shape and could stand to drop about 5 more lbs, but 5lbs does nto a 5 min mile make. Do I need to be more paitient and do more base mileage (I do about 20 miles a week).

I guess the runners just make it look so easy. (They must feel the same way watching me swim)

This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time. - Fight Club
Industry Brat.

Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [bigskyTi] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 06 10:35

Post #2 of 238 (12584 views)

Here is your problem "'"""(I do about 20 miles a week). """""

The answer is to run more. Lots more. You don't need 400's for now, you need more miles more of the time.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [bigskyTi] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 06 10:36

Post #3 of 238 (12582 views)

What are your goals? I am a bit confused. Do you want to run a fast stand-alone mile time OR run a faster split for your run leg in a triathlon?

Either way, it sounds like you need to invest more time in running. Take 2 - 3 months and maybe more, and just run! If you do it right you will see your run times drop.

Fleck

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [bigskyTi] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 06 11:09

Post #4 of 238 (12529 views)

20 miles a week is ridiculous for someone with competitive goals.

Having said that, I don't think you will ever be running 5:30 miles. I hope this statement pisses you off enough to go out there and prove me wrong.

Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [Paulo] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 06 11:37

Post #5 of 238 (12471 views)

20 miles a week is my off season total. I just started training again after some time off due to a family tradegy and last weeks total was 37 miles. I have a 20k race on jul 3rd and am considering not going as I feel undertrained. btw I can hold a 7:30 pace right now but it drops to 6:30 when I am feeling well trained. Our paces are similiar just run lots it will drop. I don't know about 5:30 but a 6:30 pace is certainly doable

Jim

**Note above poster works for a retailer selling bikes and related gear*

Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [Paulo] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 06 11:48

Post #6 of 238 (12448 views)

Really pissed off. Please call me a pussy and tell me to go out and run instead of posting my whiney ass problems on ST. I think that will do it :)

As far as the other posts, I'm doing 3x 10K a week plus about 100 mi on the bike and 6000yrds in the pool. Which constitutes about 18-20hrs a week of training with prep time and all. Do I need to find more time or reallocate the time that I have?

I know that I could use more run volume, and I did feel a lot better on the run when I do closer to 30mi a week. My question was more will I ever be able to turn that fast a run split?

I got one answer of No Never a 5:30, which is OK. I'm fine being an average runner, but I wonder what I should reasonably shoot for?

I do want to win some local races in the future, and I know that another year and a good winter on the bke will help increase my splts there, but I just have not seen the improvements on the run like I would have hoped.

Bottom line, what is realistic on the run? I would be real happy turning 6's eventually. Is that possible? Or do you have to be born with the sub-7 gene?

(please understand that I'm not bitching and I am relatively happy and proud of top AG finishes, I just really want to improve, and have a strong desire to not qualify my 2nd place with an * denoting AG - plus I age up next season to a more competitive AG ;)

Plus plus I hate losing to anybody.

This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time. - Fight Club
Industry Brat.

Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [bigskyTi] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 06 12:11

Post #7 of 238 (12400 views)

I'm not sure why it takes you almost 20 hours per week to swim 6000 yards, bike 100 miles and run 20 miles. I can get 6000 yards of swimming, 100 miles of biking and 30 miles of running in on about 10 or 11 hours per week. You mentioned including prep time so I'm not quite sure what that means. I start all of my runs and rides from the house, and the pool that I use during the summer is only 5 minutes from our house so I really don't have travel time to add to workout time.

I've dropped more than 2 minutes per mile on my average marathon pace per mile. Dropping 30 pounds helped, but mostly it was just running for a number of years, running more and training more effectively, mostly by really working hard when doing tempo work and then knowing how to run easily on recovery days.

I think that you can drop two minutes per mile if you are relatively new to running, have the patience to build up your mileage slowly over a couple years, and have the desire to suffer from time to time. First thing I would do is just get the mileage up. Running more makes you run faster. Second, I would start to add speedwork (tempo runs, hills and intervals on the track) once you have a good running base in your legs.

Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [CTL] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 06 12:17

Post #8 of 238 (12387 views)

Well, I prettty much agree with the peanut gallery. How about after your last summer tri cutting back to 2 swims a week and 60 to 70 miles running until feb or march and see what kind of runner you are? Miles of trials trials of miles time my friend.

Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [CTL] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 06 12:18

Post #9 of 238 (12380 views)

I agree that does seem like a lot of hours for those sorts of numbers. I just did a 19 hour week that was about 13,500 yards of swimming, 160 miles on the bike, 24 running, and 90 minutes of core/weight.

I am a slow runner which is my big limiter, but the chicken and the egg with running is if you are running say 4-5 hours per week you'll probably not get the sort of run volume in to really make huge improvements in the run if you are a plodder like I am. I think you have to view it as a multi year progression and you can't fix everything in one season.

http://bigisland-will.blogspot.com/

Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [bigskyTi] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 06 12:37

Post #10 of 238 (12355 views)

<< Please call me a pussy and tell me to go out and run instead of posting my whiney ass problems on ST. I think that will do it :) >>

Done. You are a pussy. Go run. Happy now? ;-)

If ya wanna run better, ya hafta run more, and do that by running more often.

Increased volume thru increased frequency.

In a season and a half of running 'more' (I still don't do all that big of a volume, but a lot more than I used to), my running has improved dramatically. With nearly zero speedwork. The only time I run fast is while racing.

I did a run focus to begin this season, and finished w/ one 3 week period where I did big (by my standards) volume of 50, 50, and 45 miles. Literally the next week my running had reached a new level, I was going faster at lower HR's across all paces.

5:xx / mile may or may not be doable (depends on a lotta things, some beyond your control), but there's no reason you can't work to be able to knock out 6:xx miles eventually.

Oh, and lose weight. I don't care if you already look like Ally McBeals little brother, lose some weight. You will be a faster runner AND cyclist if you do.

float , hammer , and jog

Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [bigskyTi] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 06 12:51

Post #11 of 238 (12320 views)

Sub-7 gene? Come on man, I think your big problem is that you're not setting your sights high enough. Maybe there's a "sub-5 gene", but I think just about everyone can run sub-7 min miles with a bit of training. I consider myself a decent (not great) runner and after 9 months of run training I just did an 18 mile steady run today on 6:42 miles, and I ran a 16:42 5k a couple of months ago. I'm not gifted by any stretch of the imagination, I'm just training with focus and consistency.

Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [G-man] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 06 13:10

Post #12 of 238 (12278 views)

Well, thanks to all the penut gallery, it sounds like I just need to run more.

As for the 18-20hr a week maybe it just feels that way and I have more time than i thought.

Do any of you feel like running is really hard on you? I feel like I could spend all week in the pool or on the bike and come back for more, but I try to avoid consecutive run days because I'm sore and I guess I'm a little gun shy about injury (I've had repeated bouts with shin splints and stressed soleus muscles). Would running twice a day for shorter distances help? Is a 2x 5K day the same as a 10K day?

I know that the runners are rolling their eyes right now about the lack of mileage, but more than an 8 mi run is really tuff on me. Certainly more so than swimming for 45 min with little rest or going for a good 2hr pedal, but it sounds like I just need to suck it up an breakthrough my comfort zone. I guess I will have to just continue to build over the season and see where I end up.

This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time. - Fight Club
Industry Brat.

Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [bigskyTi] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 06 13:11

Post #13 of 238 (12274 views)

I spent a couple of years running 20 miles a week and doing lots of intervals and I am faster now a few years later by doing more volume--generally two to three times more. The result is that my O-distance run time is now what my stand-alone 10K time used to be. If you want to run a stand-alone 10K then some intervals might be useful, but for a tri 10K then you need more volume.

Having said that, I could run 34-35 minutes for 10K (36-38 minutes for 10K in tri) on those 20 miles a week, so genetics does have some influence. I would leave 400 repeats to the milers and 5K runners. I'm not really sure any triathlete needs them.

Chad

Last edited by: cdw: Jun 25, 06 18:44

Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [bigskyTi] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 06 13:22

Post #14 of 238 (12250 views)

In Reply To:

Running is much harder on the body. Just go run. You meat and potato runs should be 8-12k almost daily or 40-55 min day after day. find some trails. But with only 20mile per week in the bank, I'd probably add in some 20 min runs a few days per week, and extend whcih ever run is my longest by about 15 min to start. Increase frequency. For now skip the 2X day runs, just add in some days of easy running. Also me thinks you need to recalculate your training hours.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: Jun 25, 06 13:24

Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 06 14:00

Post #15 of 238 (12178 views)

yeah, I think it is more like 12 hrs of actual trianing now that I do the math, but it is the pre and post workout time that gets me (commute, strech, change and shower). I suppose that I could find more time to actually trian by streamlining my prep time and getting more organized. work, work, work. :)

This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time. - Fight Club
Industry Brat.

Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [bigskyTi] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 06 15:46

Post #16 of 238 (12076 views)

Heres my three takes(I've been watching a guy in the same position as you for the last 2 years, some of this is form his situation some from my running experience):

1.Run enough to look like a runner(this is more than 20 mpw, its more in the 40 range). I'm assuming right now you have an upper body more fitting of a swimmer. You can get more miles in with 4-5 milers, even though it isn't doing a lot for aerobic capacity, it is building running muscle and any time running will help form and strength.

2.Vary your running, if you are only running 3 times per week none of the should be the same distance. But you should be running 4 times per week, which you should try and run maybe 7, 6, 7, 10 or 8,5,7,10. Go real easy on the 5, and one other run. Try and do 4-6 repeats of about 3-5 minutes with little rest at about 15 seconds per mile slower than race pace on the 8 or 7 day. I disagree with your friend about speed work, you need to vary your workouts. Your fastest stuff should be at race pace or maybe just a touch faster, but you don't need to get on a track. Like any other sport, you need to stress your body, and rest it both actively and inactively but if you're taking 3-4 days off per week from running almost all of your days of running will be "stress" days.

3.As far as injury goes, get good shoes. Expect some pain. Run through some stuff. Point #1 should help prevent injury. Ice and stretch. Shin Splints aren't the end of the world and stress fractures won't happen at anything under 50 mpw I wouldn't think.

Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [G-man] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 06 16:08

Post #17 of 238 (12043 views)

In Reply To:

Well, I prettty much agree with the peanut gallery. How about after your last summer tri cutting back to 2 swims a week and 60 to 70 miles running until feb or march and see what kind of runner you are? Miles of trials trials of miles time my friend.

It's one thing for Paulo to say 20 miles is ridiculous (which is an overstatement IMO), but suggesting firing out 60-70 miles for an age grouper is way over the top. Wanna personally insure his knees/hips/ankles?

Did I miss something, like the dude is looking to go Ironman distance? No. Dude said THREE miles. GMAFB.

**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [Aztec] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 06 16:52

Post #18 of 238 (11979 views)

although on the flip side of that coin, and I agree that 60-70 right now is not feasible, ~ 100k in the curent literature seems to be the sweet spot as far as performance gains . But he needs a bit of time to get up there.

As for an overstatement, 20 miles is far under what anyone who has FOP ambitions needs both short term and long term development.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [Aztec] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 06 18:04

Post #19 of 238 (11890 views)

Calling it ridiculous is the UNDERstatement of the year, I was actually being nice.

Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 06 18:09

Post #20 of 238 (11876 views)

That's getting closer (i.e., ramping up). If dude runs 20 now, he might get as much benefit from 25-30 miles as from 40+ (for now).

But do sprint tri peeps ever need to run 60 mpw, even to be FOP? Hell, several of my friends are FOP AGers in Ironman, and they *rarely* break 50mpw, even in run focus weeks.

**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [bigskyTi] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 06 18:20

Post #21 of 238 (11855 views)

Maybe you need to get a running coach?

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [Paulo] [ In reply to ]

Jun 26, 06 0:01

Post #22 of 238 (11714 views)

When adding up weekly mileage, are steady warm-ups/cool-downs counted? I do a couple of faster sessions each week at the track, which include 15-20 min of steady w/up and 15-20 min of c/d. This adds up to around 8-10 miles per week. Does it count?

Although 20 miles is on the low side, isn't the right mileage for a runner the mileage that makes them faster? If a guy is getting faster on 20 mpw (although this guy doesn't seem to be), then is there any reason to have him run 30-40?

Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [bigskyTi] [ In reply to ]

Jun 26, 06 0:23

Post #23 of 238 (11707 views)

I don't know about 5:30, but you ought to be able to make a significant dent in 7:30 without running 60 or 70 miles a week. If you've had problems with overuse injuries in the past, I certainly wouldn't start running every day, much less twice a day.

In late 20s to mid 30s, I raced sub-6:00 10K, 60:00 for 10 miles, and 6:30-6:45/mile run legs for international distance tris on 35-40 miles a week (I was also a shin-splint sufferer and could not do much more...until I got fitted with custom orthotics and started doing my long runs on trails). My bike mileage at that time was around 125 a week, and I was swimming 5000-7000m.

Your buddy was right in advising 400s, for a start. I found 800s on a 400 recovery to be the workout that really got me fast in the 5-10 mile range. But I started with 400 on 400R, then progressed to 800 on 800R before getting to 800 on 400R. Before I started running intervals, my 5 mile PR was 31:08. After a few months of one regular interval set per week (along with one long ru and one tempo run), I dropped that to 28:20.

Now I'm old and fat and run long rather than fast...

______________

Reverisco!

Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [donm] [ In reply to ]

Jun 26, 06 0:28

Post #24 of 238 (11701 views)

I am just saying the brudder is trying to run 5:30 miles. I don't know any faster way of finding out if you can do that other than being a runner. Adding 5% a week from Aug to March is 32 weeks, or getting to 50-60 miles a week. Without knowing much background on your age or size I think that would be a reasonable goal. If he wants to finish strong in the under 40 age groups he will need to run a sub 40 (more like 37ish) 10 k off the bike. I lived that problem over and over again during my "racing years" in triathlon. Top 10 in the field swim, Top 5 in the field bike, die like a dog 44 min 10 k and watch all the good guys pass me.
I trained running like a dog for about a year and went from a stand alone 38 min 10k to a low 35 min. Losing 15 lbs too.Then I went to a 38 comfortable age grouper running 38s and 37s off the bike and beating those guys that were on the podiums in the mid 30 age groups. I did Podium at 3 out of 4 USTS races that next 2 years.
You may not have the ability to run 5:30s off the bike that is damn fast.

Re: Can a 7:30 mile ever turn into a 5:30 mile? [bigskyTi] [ In reply to ]

Jun 26, 06 0:54

Post #25 of 238 (11690 views)

I know for a fact that in 20 years you can go from a 7:00 minute mile to a 9:00 minute mile. Does that help? :)

Aloha,

Larry

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