Coming from somebody who is a open water swimmer myself and have coached some of Canada's top mid distance and distance freestylers at different points in their careers I will just speak about what has worked for me. In terms of mileage we will only do about 20% of our weekly training kick, however when we do kick for the most part it is done at high intensity. if we are kicking easy it is with fins (finis zoomers are the fins I recommend). Now is adding a little kick to your training going to move you from a 15 min to a 12 min km, the answer in my eyes is no. The amount of training you would need to do to drop the 2.5 min / km is probably more then you have time for. the extra work on kick with help you improve your body position but that is about it. if you want to be looking in the 1 hour - 1:05 for the 5km you will need to at least double if not triple your training.

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I'in agreement with coach here. 12-18 k is very low volume by swim standards. Even 40k is still considered low volume by most. It would be different if you were trying to hold or reclaim speed.

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So you can swim a 3800M OWS in 48:00? That will bring you out of the water in the top 3-5 in about every IM in the world. You want advice on how to go faster?

You need a swim coach.

Nice BDB.

For a swimmer (not a triathlete) 12-18k is redicously low. Most FOP AG Triathletes are doing 12k and the swim only makes up 20-25% of their total volume.

If I wanted to be truely dedicated to just swimming, I'd get in probably 10-12 sessions a week for 35-40k yards... as a starting point. Ideally, probably 10-12 sessions 50-70k.

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I believe you know what you need to do to get faster as you have all of he answers in your question. As others have said, increase volume and perhaps add some kick sets - I'm sure yours is minimal now. Lastly, you do no threshold work, so you do not train at the pace you want to race.....so what you are doing is not specific to your goal.

I'm curious on you comment regarding why you quoted your 100 times based on 50's? This makes me believe your note doing any long sets of longer swims - 200's, 500's or even 100's?

Time to man up and do some work!

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You need threshold + vo2 max sets more than you need kicking

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Neah, he swims 1000m in 15m, that's a 1:30/100m pace which means 57 minutes and change for an IM. That's still faster than most AGers though...
However, if that's his best 1000m time I doubt that he can actually swim 3800m at that pace. More likely his IM time would be around 1:01 maybe a little faster with a wetsuit.

I think he meant 50 reps of 100m at a 1:15 pace. He can probably do those on a 1:20 interval.

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He said that was his time for "any conditions, up to 5k".

I'm with the other posters, more time in the pool, and more time making it hurt.

John

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These threads are always interesting.

I'm curious about the motivation here.

For DL racing, it maybe makes sense, as the swim is more of a pass-fail and 1:30/100m would be failing whereas 1:15/100m would be passing, but for 1/2IM or IM the ROI for the additional time needed to cut this time off your swim isn't really there. The extra 5-10 hrs/week in the pool might buy 5-10 min of time savings over an IM swim, but that same 5-10 hrs would likely reap 15, 20, or even 30 min on the bike/run.

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Where are you getting 5-10 hours? Adding 3 workouts of 2-3k should add ~3 hours for a 1:30 race pace swimmer, and almost doubles his current workload. If those workouts are all quality, not floatfests, that should get him into his desired range.

And it goes back to the age old argument, yeah, it's "only" 5 minutes improvement, but that is 5 minutes you aren't fighting through the most resistive part of the event, 5 minutes you are biking while others are swimming, less effort expended early, yadda yadda yadda.

John

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People had mentioned doubling his weekly swim yardage, so I ballparked an extra 12-18k at 5-10hrs (depending on how it is done). I guess the better question would be: how much extra weekly pool time would he need to drop 5 min off an IM swim? I don't think a couple of weeks with yardage bumped up by 10k seems unreasonable for bringing about a quick improvement, with a bit of additional mileage on-going for maintenance. From 1:00 to 0:55 is an 8% improvement, and being a "pointy-end'er" know you have an appreciation for the diminishing returns phenomenon.

There's also this funny tendency to ignore travel/prep/changing time when it hurts your point, but include it when it helps your point :)

Realistically, (unless you have a pool in your house) a 3k workout is probably closer to 2 hrs door-to-pool-to-door than it is to 1 hr. The most efficient way to add volume is to tack it on to workouts you're already doing, that way you don't have to do extra changing/traveling/laundry, etc.

As for the "value" of the time savings, is 5 min saved on the bike or run worth less than 5 min saved on the swim? I say yes, but only marginally so, but the amount of training required to save 5 min on a given discipline is also longest for the swim once you've reached the level this guy has.

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Thanks folks, I appreciate all the thoughtful advice and wisdom you've offered. A couple of further points might help explain things a little better than my original post.

I am currently considering extra volume, higher pace work/threshold and also also joining the squad. Hence the discussion with the coach.

I'm 45 y/o with a family and a full-time corporate job. I have spent the last 6 months getting back into shape via swimming after some time off. Last time I raced in the pool I was a teenager and I've never really take up training at that level again until the last year or two. I've trimmed down and am swimming better but am definitely on a plateau now . Adding one more session per week might be possible - will likely add to my current ones as well though. Even though I live close to the pool, this is more efficient and that is a factor.

My goals are currently mostly o/w swims (its summer here) with triathlon on the backburner for a little while. However, I've still got the bug and spend as much time on my bike as in the pool. Maybe more. Running is the current limiter - series of injuries that I'm slowly working on. This is another reason to work on kicking - to give my legs a workout, albeit not a running one.

The time I've mentioned is pretty much my stock standard time in o/w. I've done two 5km races recently and did 1:17 and 1:19 (very rough conditions) - so just outside 15 min/kms in each. In shorter races I can get into the 14mins and I'm usually FOP in triathlon swims of all distance up to 70.3, if not first out of the water - in my age group. I'm yet to do a 140.6. Nevertheless, I agree that more work (volume/intensity) is going to be needed to drop my time by 2.5min per km and this has to be weighed up against other factors. I do have the most to gain by biking/running better but am happily working on my swim knowing that It'll get me swimming in clear water, out of the water faster and enjoying the ocean swims as well.

Thanks again for all the advice.

With limited volume and a dragging legs, I hit a plateau for a little while training by myself. I was getting in about 10-15k per week on a 1:30 base (meters) and still swimming 26-27 for 70.3.

Once I started swimming with a few guys that swim just a little faster than me, or the same speed, I was able to drop to a 1:20 base (meters) without upping my yardage. This March I swam 57 at IMLC in choppy water and a bit longer than standard course.

I wouldn't say that this is normal, but for me, the added push to hold the interval and lead the lane helped me get over a hump. I feel that I could get down a bit lower by adding 5-10k per week, and plan to start getting up to that volume sometime in the near future. My kick has been something that developed as a result of needing to pick up the pace, but I rarely ever do long kick sets.

I'm one that will say that the extra 5 minutes you gain is totally worth it.

jake

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Thanks man, that actually sounds quite a bit like me.

One other thing I should mention is that the qualifying time for the Australian Open Water swim champs is 1:05:00 and part of my thoughts around getting my open water time down is to see if I could qualify next year....fair bit of a stretch but with some work I reckon I might get there. Its as much a goal as any triathlons at the moment.

So, here is another question: how much/what work would it take to get from 1:15 down to 1:05? Double or triple the volume as someone said above? Or just more intensity? Both? I guess the answers are already outlined by some of you guys but I"m interested in any additional comments if you've got some.

thnx

At mentioned above, I think to compete you will need to be putting in around 40k at the least.

a 10 second drop just over a minute is going to be a tough one. Are your turns solid? Are your walls and under waters off the walls efficient? This won't translate for anything in open water, but could help you eliminate a sizable chunk of that 10 seconds.

For me, I could hit 1:10 or faster for at least 10x 100m. It just means picking up the pace that much more. Could I hold that for longer distances? I'm sure I could if I upped my volume. Lunch time swims just aren't getting me the volume that I would need currently.

I guess that a question that should be asked is, are you swimming on a 1:15 base (pushing off at 1:15 for the next interval), or are you swimming 1:15 and have a separate rest period? Swimming a 1:05 base is going to me getting down to 1 flat - 1:02ish.

jake

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Thanks Jake, I'm pretty much on the same wavelength. However, I should clarify one thing (my fault I think): the 1:15 to 1:05 drop I mentioned is referring to my time for an o/w 5km - 1 hour 15 minutes. I'm considering how to get this down to one hour five. Nevertheless, your points about the 100m time are pretty close to the money all the same. I want to get from a 1:30 base for distance 100's down to a 1:15 or less. Its a big drop and will need the kind of work that you and others have mentioned. I'm still interested in seeing what I can do with my kick but if I go after some big swim goals then the volume/intensity will have to increase.

thnx

My view is that the importance of the kick is hugely underestimated by many people. All the top swimmers can do 100m kick very very fast. We can look at aspects of the pull such as early vertical forearm etc, but none of that explains why better swimmers can go so much faster than mere mortals while just kicking.

To illustrate the difference it can make, my best time for 100m freestyle kick is 1:42. The best swimmers in the world can do it in under 60 seconds. This is a much bigger difference than the difference in swim times, where my 100m PB is 59 seconds vs 44 seconds for the world record. I used to compete against a masters swimmer who is ranked in the all-time world top 10 in many events, and he could do 100m kick in 1:13. By an interesting coincidence, 1:13 is what my best 100m kick time is if I wear fins. So I figure that if I swim full stroke with fins, it gives me the same kick as he has without fins. In training, from a push off, wearing fins gets my time for 100m freestyle down from 62 seconds to 56 seconds. Making adjustments for how much faster I'd normally go in a race, I'd say that adding fins to give me the same kick as he has without fins pretty much eliminates the full stroke speed difference between the two of us, i.e. the difference in our full stroke swimming speeds is pretty much entirely explained by the difference in kick.

Another example is a masters swimmer who does ~16 minutes for 1500m freestyle (5th in the all-time world top 10 for his age) and I've been told he does reps of 100m kick in training around 1:20 per 100m, i.e. that isn't his one off max effort 100m kick pace.

The question is can mere mortals develop the ability to kick like they can? I'm not sure we can, I've tried doing a lot of kick training but never made any obviously noticeable improvement in my kick times. Whatever it is that gives them the ability to go so fast while kicking, I have tried and failed to develop it in myself. It's worth mentioning that they don't visibly have thunderous kicks, it's more about efficiency of propulsion.

I have not kicked a ton lately. My kick hundreds are usually 1.30-40 cruising speed. I kick 10% or less of total volume in the past few years. I will probably be bumping up my kick sets getting ready for Montreal. I'm usually a FINA annual top 10er so my chances at placing high are good. In the past I was sub 30 for 50 kick and under 1.10 for 100.

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Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Agree 100% and I too have tried very hard to improve my kicking speed without huge results, have a lot more endurance on the kick but not a whole lot more speed. I'm convinced that kicking speed is directly proportional to ankle/foot/toe flexibility, which can be improved to some degree but I think to some degree it is innate. Also, I've done that same swim with fins vs without fins comparison, and I'm about 6 sec/100 yd faster with fins in an all-out 100 free. You've prob looked at many youtube swim videos like I have and have prob seen the one below but, just in case you haven't, this video shows a slow motion underwater of Phelps's dolphin kick at about :50 in, and you can literally see his toes flexing like fins. My toes just don't work like that. He has fins for feet:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax77_hHq9Dc

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Thanks guys, really appreciate the insights & the link to the MP video - I hadn't seen that. Some of you are swimming at the level I'm aspiring to and its really helpful to hear your comments.

I did a few kick oriented drills this morning at the pool and its pretty clear that my kick sucks. My swim speed is almost solely driven by my arms. I don't think my kick is a hindrance but its not adding much either. I don't overly bend my knees or loose energy/streamline I don't think but I don't get much propulsion thats for sure.l'm embarrassed to say what my kick 100 times were.....

Amongst other changes, I'm going to try a drill the squad coach suggested: push off the wall and stay streamlined while kicking until the halfway point of the pool (keep arms above my head, try not to breath or breath minimally at least) and then finish the lap using my arms as normal - maintaining the kick. Idea is to not slack off kicking once my arms start.

mahalo

Glad you liked the MP video, his toe flexibility is just unbelievable to me:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I agree - similar traits can be seen on Ian Thorpe slo-mo too. Its like their whole leg whips down, almost a dolphin/butterfly kick. They don't let their knees drop though. Leads me to thinking about including more butterfly in my sessions. Perhaps the kick is why good butterflyers are usually good freestylers too.

Phelps arms are interesting too. His first motion seems to be a reach, almost hyper extending his shoulder and elbow. Perfectly symmetrical and centred as well. I know there is a lot made of the EVF but I think Phelps and Thorpe both reach and stretch out before pulling through with a vertical component. When their arm is under their body its almost horizontal though, not vertical. There is a LOT going on through each armstroke - years of training and refinement there.

Both Phelps & Thorpe kick bloody fast (?six beat I guess) which is a sprinter/middle distance trait. I think Hackett & Perkins might have used a 6 beat at times...most footage I've seen of Sun Yang is much more subdued.

Ya, including fly is a good idea but also don't forget backstroke: I can really feel my feet "flicking" (to the extent that they can, which is truly amateurish compared to MP:)) when kicking both dolphin and flutter kick on my back. I usually kick on my back with my arms in the streamline position, which also gives you a really good long back stretching session while kicking.

So, since I'm already doing 3 out of the 4 strokes, I often add breast in and do some sort of IM kick set, w/o the board. Recently, I've been doing 10 x 200 yd IM kick sets. These sets take about 50% longer than swimming IM but I'm much more comfortable swimming IM now that I've improved my kick.

Regarding MP's arms, ya, I really like the way he obv really, really stretches out on each stroke. I can do that when swimming easy but to get any speed going I have to increase my turnover rate which implies not stretching quite that far out. His super strong kick prob enables MP to do this w/o losing speed.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Thanks man. I do backstroke a bit already - hadn't really related it to kicking this way though. Plenty to work on!

mahalo