I've heard this with lung damage as well. At this point there is just too little info to believe either are definitely true.

But what that means is that there is just too little info to say definitively that there are no long term effects. It's one of the main reasons I'm being very careful with this despite having zero pre-existing conditions and being solidly in the "very low risk" camp.

Why chance it if it's just as easy not to.

---

Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4

In March, my dad had a case of COVID so mild that he didn't even get tested for it, and it was dismissed as the common cold. He has since tested positive for antibodies. Prior to the illness, he power walked 90-150 minutes at a time, several times a week. No comorbidities (he is in his early 70s, though). Now he struggles to walk for 20 minutes at a time. He had a cardiac workup because of severe fluid retention he was experiencing, and the doctor said his EKG from 2 years ago looked like it was from another person.

They have a few procedures they are going to try on him to correct it, really hope one of them works.

Had covid-19 in May. Like a dumbass I ran for the first few days ( worried about keeping my lungs open) . Had an EKG last week and all was normal but scheduled for a ultrasound and stress yes eat before returning to any hard exercise.

Like the other guy said, the data set is still small and so much unknown long term. I'm in the low risk to die too, but am trying to minimize risk.

I guess what drives me nuts about these articles/studies is that there's a lot of ambiguity in them. I.E. "A 31 year old patient came in saying they used to run..." I want to know more about the patient. If the 31-year old is 20 lbs overweight and would run 1-2 miles 4 times a week and now is struggling to run again after a month being down and ate oreos and ice cream on the couch during the sickness and gained more weight, then I wouldn't think that is a covid related heart issue, but related to just being generally out of shape. If the 31-year old is consistently running 25-30 MPW and within 5 lbs of healthy/fit weight then I think the study would make me worry a lot more about long term affects.

The first is probably more descriptive of the general public and the second is probably more accurate for a majority of the readers of this forum.

That being said, one of my running buddies is on the upswing from COVID-19. He was down for about 10 days with the flu-ish symptoms version. One thing that was interesting is he wears a forerunner 945 24x7 and having him share the data per-symptoms to when they arrived was interesting. He's late 40s and met the NYC marathon time standards and ran Boston last year so someone I'd describe as in shape. He's had cardio issues in the past and an appointment to discuss returning to fitness with his cardiologist soon. I'm interested in hearing what he says....but all that being said, he's just a singular data point, but it's one that I thing provides the data I want to see vs. what the article says above.

what are we talking about here... the tooth fairy? Santa Claus?

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

A lot more data needed before definitive answers on lasting damage can be determined. Certainly the cases detailed in the news look bad and for some it will be a long road back. The other group in the news are pro athletes. Positive tests reported daily but I have not heard of any in this group that are having more than mild symptoms. No reports of hospital stays, ventilators, or prolonged health concerns.

There's a guy in one of the running shoe facebook groups I'm in who had COVID earlier this year. He's 47 and ran a 2:57 at the Chicago Marathon last year.

"Thanks! COVID is by far the worst thing I’ve ever experienced. I literally went from the best shape of my life (running/yoga/strength) to the brink of death in a two week period. I was then rushed to the hospital by ambulance where I stayed for 8 days. The pneumonia that resulted left me unable to do much after discharge. It’s taken almost 4 weeks but I’m finally getting my strength back and am up to 4 miles of running at 9:20ish pace (for reference I was planning to run Boston in April at a 6:45ish pace). I hope everyone stays safe and remains vigilant."

He did a podcast where he talked about it but I haven't listened to it. I'd be curious to see how he fares going forward!

would you mind sharing the link? I'm going through the exact same thing and battling pneumonia. Would like to know more about the road ahead.

The interesting thing is the "long term impact" angle. This is important if deaths are low and hospitals have plenty of capacity. Then people will be asking for a "free for all" because few are dying (single to teens per day in many Euro countries and Canada) and hospitals have capacity.

If there are no long term impacts, then it subsequently makes sense to more aggressively open things up for deaths are few, hospitals have plenty of space and almost everyone recovers 100%. Then it becomes just another disease that we most people largely get over. But if most people have long term health impacts then its not "just another thing to get over".

The problem is there is not enough data to know the last piece (long term impact). There is emerging more and more data saying that its not as lethal compared to the first rounds of this (that's debateable too, but numbers are playing out in many nations, but not all).

I think a year from now, we'll all know more, in the mean time, I am personally doing everything to avoid risk situations of getting it, because if there is long term impact, that's not worth it. I don't actually care about dying (if I am dead it does not matter), but if I live and life sucks badly because of the affects, that's worse.

...and to add to what you have said about pro athletes, they are all coming out of this fine. While I have pro athlete like body composition (not pro triathlon, but compared to athletes in most sports), I'm also 55 in a few weeks so no need to take stupid risks. I'll take risks that are hyper low for transmission like going to the pool, but not going to a bar or restaurant any time soon and not hanging out with anyone but my family and only done distanced group training with 2 friends...other than that, no human to human interaction (sadly) to do my part to reduce transmission of this.

there are articles in the literature that point to endothelial cell effects of the virus. These cells are distributed throughout the body and can cause issues in other organs besides the lungs. This article might interest athletes in particular how it says the effects effect vasodilation etc all aspects of athletic performance
https://link.springer.com/...7/s11906-020-01078-6
"Based on the above, it becomes apparent that conditions characterized by increased oxidative stress are associated with diminished biosynthesis and availability of NO. Therefore, an imbalance between excessive formation of reactive oxygen species with inadequate antioxidant defense capacity is considered the hallmark of endothelial dysfunction [12]. Under such conditions, the protective properties of the endothelium are lost, with a shift toward impaired vasodilation and the expression of a pro-inflammatory, pro-atherosclerotic, and pro-thrombotic phenotype in the vasculature which is directly associated with the pathogenesis, the progression, and the complications of cardiovascular diseases (CVDs)"

Not sure how this would play out long term but CVDs are typically not short term.

I tend to agree it is safer to not have had an infection with Covid-19 than to take a risk that carries an unknown potential outcome.

At this point there is just too little info to believe either are definitely true.


Always interesting when someone takes word out of context to make their point......I mean, what's the point.
And why do it.

Never believe anything...

---

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

There's a sizeable group of people who are struggling with long-term, post-viral impacts from covid, including cardiovascular, respiratory, neurological, and any other systems/organs which the virus and the body's immune reaction touch. The risk of suffering a long-term illness afterwards appears to go up with age, but can effect kids, as well. Issues that I see frequently mentioned in support groups are problems such as chronic fatigue, "brain fog", shortness of breath, coughing, tachycardia (both persistent and POTS-related), palpitations, neuropathy, post-exertional malaise, other autonomic nervous system impacts, and the list goes on and on. People being affected by these long-running symptoms are often, but not exclusively, mild and moderate covid cases that needed no hospitalization during the acute phase of the virus. This sizeable and steadily growing group of "long haulers" includes plenty of people who were previously in excellent health with no underlying medical conditions and who were very active, athletic individuals. While there has been some reporting that has mentioned the long-term impacts of the virus on people, it still gets relatively little mention in news about the virus and little, if any, recognition from most governments.

Here's one article that touches on some aspects of the long-term impact:

https://www.theatlantic.com/...ups-symptoms/615382/

Yeah, the idea is to err on the low risk side to avoid getting it until we know if there are truly long term effects. If it gets proven that everything can be recovered from, then I don't have an issue doing high risk things, get it and move on. If the latter happens (no long term issues, low deaths, low hospitalizations) the world can move on past this and just live with it. In the mean time, lets see if deaths actually go low, hospitalizations actually stay low, and illnesses can be 100% recovered from for the majority of the population....and try to contribute to not spreading this thing to give everyone a chance to move on in whatever form it takes.

As stated. Still too early to have a large, stasticially viable cohort with which to predict.

My expereince, and ongoing review of all of the rolling data is that we just don't know. Have seen folks several months out, still with respiratory/pulmonary symptoms. Reduced exercise tolerance. Asthma like symptoms, improve with bronchodilators. While there are varying degrees, have had a few folks where imaging normal, cardiac echocardiogram normal, pulmonary function testing normal. Different time tables for recovery. Full disclosure, have not personally had a young athlete with no risk factors develop ongoing symptoms. My folks have been middle age to older, with some medical conditions. But had not had previous pulmonary issues.

There appears to be an attributable incidence of venous thrombotic events (DVT,PE), but still unable to stastically clarify what that risk is, and who is at greatest risk. Someone sick enough to be hospitalized likely falls into higher risk category just based on severity of illness.

There is literature supporting associated cardiac disease. Most importantly, myocardial infarctions in acute setting, post-infectious myocarditis in the acute to subacute window. The BIG10 has decided to become the preeminient experts in this. But I digress.

These risks and issues can pretty much be associated with any severe illness, infection, virus. However, to state the obvious, COVID is a whole different ball of wax. As we all pretty much realize, young/active/healthy, odds remain overwhelmingly good that you recover with no long-term damage. However, in this demographic, it still remains a bit of Russian Roulette regarding who gets severely ill, and who has lingering side effects.

So, in terms of behaviors to avoid infection...remains to each is own regarding how you determine risk/benefit of any and all interactions. This has been the discussion for months, and unfortunately will continue to be for the forseeable future.

With final caveat being you still don't want to get so you don't pass to someone more vulnerable. This thing sucks.

Another anecdata point. My wife and I had Covid in April.

A month later I had some fence panels delivered to the Kerr had had to carry them through to the back garden. After four I was having to sit down for a minute between each one to recover. I ended up asking my grown up daughter to help (also had Covid, but milder) and by the end of the job we were both sitting down between panels to recover. It took us maybe two months to recover cv fitness

My wife had a worse time of it. She is a 10000 steps/day type; nothing more strenuous than that. She was in bed for roughly three weeks, blood O2 low 90s with a HR in the high 80s. Moving around reversed those, with the HR pushing 100 to hold high 80s% blood O2. It’s taken her over four months to get to the point where she can walk her 10k steps at her old pace and gold a conversation while doing so. To begin with she talking meant she was literally panting whilst walking slowly.

Long ish road back, but she’s got there.

that news story references the evidence, of which there is much more than anecdotal. There's no question mark - it certainly does cause lasting heart damage.

Preprint showing unique damage to heart muscle from the virus,
https://www.biorxiv.org/.../2020.08.25.265561v1

German study,
https://jamanetwork.com/.../fullarticle/2768916
"100 patients recently recovered from COVID-19 identified from a COVID-19 test center, cardiac magnetic resonance imaging revealed cardiac involvement in 78 patients (78%) and ongoing myocardial inflammation in 60 patients (60%), which was independent of preexisting conditions, severity and overall course of the acute illness, and the time from the original diagnosis."

Ed Yong in the Atlantic does the best informed writing on covid,

https://www.theatlantic.com/...-myocarditis/616420/
Autopsies have found traces of the coronavirus’s genetic material in the heart, and actual viral particles within the heart’s muscle cells. Experiments have found that SARS-CoV-2 can destroy lab-grown versions of those cells. Several studies have now shown that roughly 10 to 30 percent of hospitalized COVID-19 patients had high levels of troponin—a protein released into the blood when the heart’s muscle cells are damaged. Such patients are more likely to die than others with no signs of heart injury.

Yeah, it's real alright. I'm living it. Sick late March, mild symptoms. It got my heart, now have abnormal ecg with symptoms. Experiencing some tachycardia, bradycardia (pulse below 30 on a few occasions). Pulse can jump 90bpm just by standing up. Lungs still burning some days but improved from every day after some diet fine tuning. Shortness of breath climbing the stairs at home. Exercise intolerance, arthritis onset in my hands, I could go on. I was in good shape prior w/ no health issues and no meds, probably not peak 70.3 condition but not that far off. 53yo when I got sick.

I had SARS-COV-2 back in March and have seen a cardiologist. I had a pretty intense case of it as well but only spent a few hours in the hospital.

• I had and EKG and everything checked out.

• Next they did an echocardiogram and they did find that my lower heart chamber was a little thicker than normal but they say it isn't anything to worry about.

• Then they sent me for a Cardiac CT Scan. They did find 20% "build ups" in some of my arteries. They told me that that was normal for a 35 year old male in the western hemisphere.

• Finally, they are in the process of referring me to a pulmonology specialist at the University of Pennsylvania that specializes in athletes. They want to do Vo2 max and stress testing on me to see what my oxygen absorption levels are. Still waiting on the call for when I can go in and get this done.

Side note: I am way slow and have way less endurance than ever. I basically suck at triathlon as of right now. Over the last month I have been able to get back to "normal" with a workout schedule that doesn't leave me too tired the next day to do anything but lay in bed. I used to have a resting HR in the 40's. Then it went to resting in the 80's and 90's. 6 months later my resting rate is in the 70's. I still have tons of random symptoms of something and assume is related to COVID.

If you have any other questions just ask.

I don't have any questions but I just wanted to add that after having Covid in the middle of May I also had an EKG an echo and a stress test all of which checked out normal. I was hoping for a blood test and possibly some other type of scan be at MRI or CT scan of the heart I'm not sure what they do. But I'm assuming after the echo the EKG and the stress test they saw no reason to go any further.

Dev,

I'm with you. I live in Columbus, OH where there has been a lot of recent discussion of the risks of myocarditis caused by COVID-19 related to the decision when to begin the Big 10 football season. I've read several reports where cardiologists recommend that anyone diagnosed with COVID-19 avoid vigorous exercise for at least two months in order to minimize the risks of myocarditis.

For many in the U.S. at least, going two months without exercising vigorously may be a nice excuse to spent more time on the couch watching football, but there isn't much I won't sacrifice to try to assure that I can exercise vigorously every day that I feel like doing so, which is nearly every day. Therefore, I've been a strict devotee of social distancing since March. :) We may risk outdoor dining at a restaurant for the first time since March this weekend to celebrate our anniversary.

Best wishes to all of you recovering from COVID.

I would imagine that with 200.000 fatalities there are at least 2 million severe cases diagnosed so far. You would think that something as simple as an analysis of patient records pre- and post diagnosis would begin to describe the duration and severity of various symptoms and side-effects. Unfortunately this is not a sample size problem.

It’s not quite that easy but I’m sure someone is working on it however we’re not in long term territory yet. I’m not concerned if I don’t feel great in 6 months but what happens in 6 years, what happens if my kids get it and they’re 2 and 4, will they never be able to do sports? They’re major concerns and unfortunately we don’t have answers.

I think we can look at the existing ME/CFS community to have an idea of what the future landscape will be for at least some and likely many of those experiencing long-term covid at this stage. Covid is not unique in the virus world in terms of causing long-term illness. Long-term illness is largely ignored by the world, and research into long-term illness cause and treatment has not received substantial funding. Medical treatment for long-term illness is pretty limited, and the healthcare system is not set up to provide care for long-term illness. Many healthcare practitioners' training for and knowledge about long-term illness is not extensive. The degree of medical gaslighting being recounted by many who have been experiencing long-term illness and seeking care is quite shocking.