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COMPARATIVE AERO-BIKE TEST:
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As for independent testing, any time any place as far as I am concerned- Gerard


PLACE: University of Washington, Kirsten wind tunnel

TIME: Tuesday, the 21st of December.

I’m sure we can agree on a test procedure or settle on someone who is capable of writing it.



Brady O'Hare
Softride Inc.
brady.ohare@softride.com
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Re: COMPARATIVE AERO-BIKE TEST: [Brady] [ In reply to ]
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Wow. This is very, very interesting.
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Re: COMPARATIVE AERO-BIKE TEST: [Brady] [ In reply to ]
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this is what i'm talking about.

Can i eneter my schwinn rocket88?
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Re: COMPARATIVE AERO-BIKE TEST: [Brady] [ In reply to ]
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I'll settle this once and for all. The bike with the thinest rider is the most aero.

_________________________



Greatness

"The One"
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Re: COMPARATIVE AERO-BIKE TEST: [Brady] [ In reply to ]
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a big disco shootout! i'm intrigued. . .

-mike

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
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Re: COMPARATIVE AERO-BIKE TEST: [Brady] [ In reply to ]
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While I'm sure this will be an interesting exercise, I'm not sure I see what Softride has to gain from it. I can't recall anyone claiming that Softrides aren't more aerodynamic than any traditional UCI-legal bike. I guess the question is how much more aero.

If this ever does happen, can you please get some other non UCI-legal designs in the tunnel too? Otherwise, I have a prediction... Softride wins. Big suprise.

It would be really cool to get some small bike builders who typically can't afford this type of testing into the tunnel to see how they do. I know, I know, this isn't a charity.
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Re: COMPARATIVE AERO-BIKE TEST: [Brady] [ In reply to ]
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I've got an entry level bike, and a sexy triathlete willing to help out.
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Re: COMPARATIVE AERO-BIKE TEST: [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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Apples - Apples

Oranges - Oranges

Can I bring the Lotus?


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Re: COMPARATIVE AERO-BIKE TEST: [Gary Tingley] [ In reply to ]
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Ooohhh, goodness. I gotta go change my pants now.
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Re: COMPARATIVE AERO-BIKE TEST: [Gary Tingley] [ In reply to ]
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Damn Gary, what the hell is that?! I concur with Pooks, what's the pointing of testing UCI legal v. non legal. If that's what they want, Softride ought to throw a recumbent in the mix next time.
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Re: COMPARATIVE AERO-BIKE TEST: [JoeMWiley] [ In reply to ]
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That my freind, IS the fastest bike in the world. If I could afford one ($5k frame) it would be mine, well until January 1st 2007 I suppose.

They are very rare, distributed by http://www.airointernational.com




I posted this a couple years back: http://www.timetrial.org/lotus.htm

Scott Godfrey's Custom 110Mk2 Lotus Sport TT


Lotus Sport Time Trial Bicycle

The 'LotusSport' Pursuit Bicycle had its international debut at the 1992 Olympic Games in Barcelona. Chris Boardman won the gold medal for Great Britain in the Individual Pursuit event and set a new unofficial world record of 4.24.496 in the quarter finals, which represents an average speed of 56.54 kph over the 4000m.

The 'LotusSport' bicycle is derived from the Burrows 'Windcheetah', to which Lotus Engineering acquired the rights in February 1992. Since then, considerable design and development work has been carried out on the structure and shape to optimise the performance and minimise weight. The pursuit racer is the third generation design in as many months.

The heart of the design is an aerofoil section composite monocoque which is moulded of advanced materials, mainly carbon fibre. Lotus has considerable experience of working with such advanced materials, both for competition and general usage. The bike is designed to reach new levels of efficiency and low drag for improved performance.

Chainring

This is the two sides of my "current" chainring. I started with a 50 tooth Stronglight ring and laminated the outer surface with a layer of 1oz kevlar cloth capturing a set of inverted and profiled chainring bolts within the structure.

The chainrign was then slipped over teh crankarm and placed against the crank spider while I bonded a lenticular shaped cover made of a single ply of 5oz carbon fiber on the inner side.

Bolts were then passed through the covering to secure the chainring in place.

Saddle

The saddle bracket that accompanies the Lotus Sport is something quite ugly and leaves a lot to be desired.

It looks like an afterthought and from what I understand, it was an afterthought af the designers to make the bike rideable. For such a sleek bike, the bracket has a clumsy design incorporating a total of 10 bolts to hold the saddle in position where the typical seatpost has just two.

Unfortunately I don't have a photo of it yet, but here are several views of the integrated unit I redesigned.

Where all 10 bolts used were necessary to hold the saddle on [and I have had failures during critical events] I refined and finessed the design a bit and eliminated all 10 bolts by designing the saddle and the saddle bracket as a single non-adjustable component to fit exclusively my riding position and style.

Two bolts were added back, but are completely non-structural in nature, they're only there to keep the saddle down when I stand up to pedal. This configuration is incredibly light weight, sleek, rigid, and virtually maintainence free.

As you can see by the nose of the saddle, this is actaully based on a Selle Italia Flite saddle. An old saddle with no padding was used as the form and then improvements made from there.

Handlebars/brakes

This is where the goods are at! Rebuilding my aero bars was actually my intent when I started composite fabrication this year, everythign else was the result of needing things to practice on and satisfying long time desires in soem cases just to make teh whole bike a bit more elegant. As can be seen in the iages above with the silver handlbars [ITM Dual Aero bars], although they're low profile and one of the aerodynamically fastest available, they're butt ugly. Brake cables sit in open air with no routing, the outboard grips are just bulbous and huge with no effort made for streamlining them. I wanted to clean up the airflow a bit and ended up achieving far more than I intended from the original dream.

The first component I actually made in this process was that little tailcone behind the bars above where it says Lotus. Good practice and a bad expereince, it will be replaced, but I thought I'd make the note.

The handlebars themselves went through all sorts of design changes in my head fro integration with standard brake levers to my own designed brake levers, cable routing in a number of ways, honeycomb or truss or hollow internals construction to what it is now- solid carbon with a thin balsa wood core. Many paragraphs of exchanges with two frineds in engineering regarding how to retain the structure with bolts only to arrive at the conclusion that bolts are not necessary to hold it together at all. it was an expereince and it's not quite done yet either. I still have no retention mechanism or padding for my arms, so riding them is quite "interesting" and actually very tiring. For their first event I took them without a finished surface just in case there was more work to do, but there is not. I just need to add arm rests and do the final shaping and finish coating.

The end result has been a handlebar with an incredibly thin profile and exceptionally clean presence. At the leading edge where thickness is consistent the bars are barely 1/3 inch thick and the brake levers go up near 1/2 inch. The component they have replaced was at its thinnest nearly a full inch thick.

Rear Derauiller

As I was spending a lot of time learnign a lot of ins and outs of carbon work, I was also spendign a lot of time waiting. Once I got rolling in my production processes, the resin I was usign had a cure time of roughly 90 minutes. To keep things moving I would have to interleave a lot of processes or else I'd have a lot of dead time waiting for things to happen. One night I was looking around for potential improvements to make to occupy time and noticed the inside plate of my rear derauiller looked easy to replace [we're talkign real bored, isolated and lonely at this point people]. In no time I had cut up some scrap pieces of carbon cloth and had them prepped for my next pass through the wonderful world of epoxy.

Fabrication was real easy as I just saturated a bunch of carbon, stuck it together and sat a couple books on it for compression. The following day I removed it, trimemd it down to a similar profile as the "stock" component with a pair of scissors. Drilled both holes and tapped them to insure it would work, removed it, slapped a few more layers of carbon on it with compression for another night, did the shaping and drilling deal again and it was basically done. I dont' know if it's any lighter than the old component, but it's about half as thick and it's far less noisy than the old one that was full of cutouts. I doubt it matters since that region of airflowis nightmarish to start with, I list this part as simply novelty and the result of idle hands :)

Written by Scott Godfrey, introduction courtesy of Lotus Esprit World. Scott is a CAT 2 Track Racer, and one of the fastest CAT 3 Time Trialists in Southern California. Photos by Damon Rinard and Scott Godfrey.

http://www.lotusespritworld.co.uk/.../LotusSportBike.html
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Re: COMPARATIVE AERO-BIKE TEST: [Pooks] [ In reply to ]
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Your 100% correct. One bike is not held the horrorfic, stupid, dog raping UCI.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: COMPARATIVE AERO-BIKE TEST: [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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the uci killed my father, and raped my mother.



....nothing like a little bit of slightly revised family guy for ya.
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Re: COMPARATIVE AERO-BIKE TEST: [Ben in FL] [ In reply to ]
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..."the uci killed my father"... prepare to die.
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Re: COMPARATIVE AERO-BIKE TEST: [Pooks] [ In reply to ]
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I love you Pooks.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: COMPARATIVE AERO-BIKE TEST: [Gary Tingley] [ In reply to ]
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"They are very rare"

I've only ever seen one. True story - it was in a parking lot on top of a clapped out Volkswagon Rabbit at pre-registration the day before the race. In the same parking lot a few cars away was a red Ferrari 308. People were swooning all over the bike to get a look. Nobody was bothering with the Ferrari.

Never saw it in the race the next day. The owner must have been way ahead of me.
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Re: COMPARATIVE AERO-BIKE TEST: [Pooks] [ In reply to ]
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are you still holding on to that silly little grudge..it's going to get you killed one of these days
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Re: COMPARATIVE AERO-BIKE TEST: [Brady] [ In reply to ]
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The only problem is, we'll never get everybody else involved. The reason I say this is that some of the companies out there have already tested their frames against the competition in a fair manner (as they were tests for internal purposes) or have never been in a windtunnel because they are just marketing companies. They know how they stack up, and they have no interest in a fair test that will be published knowing it will show they are slower than a Softride or a Cervelo.

So then what do we do? I fear we'll be stuck with the same problem, we will need to go out and get those bikes ourselves, test them, and hear about how the test was not fair to those who did not participate. Unfortunately this is the curse for you and me, we know we'll do well in such a test and therefore we also know deep down that it will never happen. Unfortunate but true. That said, I hope you can convince all the other companies as that would be awesome.

As for test procedure, I think that may prove more difficult than you think. One quick example that you could answer on behalf of Softride. Since we are testing for triathlon, would Softride agree to a Kona-legal set-up, i.e. Zipp 404's instead of 909's? It doesn't really matter to me but you know somebody is going to come up with that one. Getting people on the same page with issues like that is like setting the rules for a presidential debate. It's not pretty.

Anyway, let me know when you have all the manufacturers together.

Gerard.

P.S. Just as a little aside, are you trying to kill somebody? Isn't Washington freezing in December? And you want somebody sitting in the tunnel with a 30mph wind chill for a few days? Maybe San Diego would be a better tunnel for that time of year.


Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle
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Re: COMPARATIVE AERO-BIKE TEST: [gerard] [ In reply to ]
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I really like this...
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Re: COMPARATIVE AERO-BIKE TEST: [gerard] [ In reply to ]
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Gerard.

E-mails have been sent to both Litespeed & Trek informing them of this thread. Their silence seems to say that do not want to have anything to do with such a public test. I believe you’re correct in saying that they know where they stack up.

Having only Cervelo and Softride involved with the test will make the procedure of the test easier to agree to. My suggestion is to update the procedure that UWAL performed with any suggestions that you or a third party might have. An independent party/s that we both feel is qualified and unbiased should review it. John Cobb, Frank Day, and Kraig Willet are a few suggestions.

The average temp for the month of Dec in Seattle is a balmy 7.1° C. However the UW tunnel is an indoor reciprocating tunnel. They can perform tests with people in the test section year round. Leg & arm warmers might be good. . .



Brady O'Hare
Softride Inc.
brady.ohare@softride.com
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Re: COMPARATIVE AERO-BIKE TEST: [gerard] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with Gerard and want to add one thing. Some bikes are definately a mess aeronesswise (?), but among the creme of the crop it depends on the course and the rider and a lot of other factors. Doing a wind tunnel test, even a good, fair one wont really tell you the fastest bike, it will only tell you which one will be best in an identical test.

Styrrell

PS, I want royalties on the word - aeronesswise, say a P3C if it shows up in a Cervelo ad ;)
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Re: COMPARATIVE AERO-BIKE TEST: [Brady] [ In reply to ]
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The VP of Marketing for Lightspeed is in Hawaii (you know, the world championships); great timing to make a post like this, send out emails and use their lack of response to missrepresent lack of interest. You're a class act.

_________________________



Greatness

"The One"
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Re: COMPARATIVE AERO-BIKE TEST: [Greatness] [ In reply to ]
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The post with our Press release has been up since the 8th. Avoiding them is not my goal; the invitation is still open to them…

Brady O'Hare
Softride Inc.
brady.ohare@softride.com
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Re: COMPARATIVE AERO-BIKE TEST: [Brady] [ In reply to ]
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There is just something about short timeframes and bringing issues to a public forum which make you seem inexperienced and immature.

Do you plan to address any of the issues and concerns that Gerard brought up or just keep blowing smoke up our arses?

_________________________



Greatness

"The One"
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Re: COMPARATIVE AERO-BIKE TEST: [Greatness] [ In reply to ]
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The only smoke I have blown is in the wind tunnel. I believe I have addressed his concerns, and am very willing to make any changes Gerard or any qualified 3rd party sees as necessary. My goal is to validate the UWAL testing.



Yes I am, very inexperienced and immature, but at least I can sign my real name.

Brady O'Hare
Softride Inc.
brady.ohare@softride.com
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