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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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Spend a bit of time reading the Team TBB forum and you'll realize that the blog post was already edited by another party. You'll also soon become fluent in Suttonese which is part of the fun in reading his thoughts. You will also probably learn more about how to be successful in triathlons than you would if you downloaded the entire history of Slowtwitch forums into your brain (a chilling thought I know).
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [avagoyamug] [ In reply to ]
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Does it hold true as well for non wet suit races? i read his blog and it seems most just jump in and swim straight sets, saves a lot of time as you bypass the talking or looking around during the rest breaks...

"Pain is NOT temporary,you remember every bit of it"
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [dennism] [ In reply to ]
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There was a group of a few guys I trained with during the summer of 2009 (mostly WCS top 10 racers) that would start every swim set with 400m flat out.
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [dennism] [ In reply to ]
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dennism wrote:
Does it hold true as well for non wet suit races? i read his blog and it seems most just jump in and swim straight sets, saves a lot of time as you bypass the talking or looking around during the rest breaks...

I think his basic point is that when you are limited on time, you cut out the "fluff" and get to the important stuff. Again, -Tex can give insights, but I don't believe that Sutton disregards warm-up. It's just something that gets cut short if time is precious. Likewise, I do think there is a benefit to jumping in and going hard, because that's very often the reality at races. There are numerous races where warm-ups are either truncated or not allowed. So being prepared for that is a good thing.

- practice going hard from the start every so often

- a warm-up is fine, as long as doing a warm-up doesn't detract from the volume of the main set. And obviously don't spend forever warming-up, doing drills, etc. But I doubt Sutton would object to 10-20min of warm-up for a "typical" swim session. 500-1000 w/u, 3000-5000 main-set, 200-300 cool down. But the main set is what makes you fast, so if you are short on time, cut the other stuff before you cut your main set.

As far as the between set crap that is a regular occurrence at plenty of swim practices? That's a clear waste of time and you don't need a coach to explain how eliminating that is useful...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [KingJulian] [ In reply to ]
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Comparing what the top group for wcs does is irrelevant for pretty much everyone besides them. Thats the one of the most important parts of the race for them. If you miss that group by 20 secs you may never catch the bike pack. For any other race its just 20 secs its not that big of a deal.

-----------------------------------------------------------
De Soto Sport Athlete
Formerly Draketriathlon
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [dennism] [ In reply to ]
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I haven't read and re-read all the posts, so I am not sure exactly what you are asking about regarding 'non wet suit' races. A couple of things though, and Rappstar has made some very good comments on this an the other swim thread. So, this post has some excess comments in there.

- One poster said something about using toys for conditioning. That essentially proved the point about simply getting fit enough to swim the distance and swim the distance hard. And, a lot of posters will post having you believe that is not the case. That drilling and a lot of time working on technique will get you to the swim finish just as as quickly. A pull buoy and sometimes paddles help a relatively inefficient swimmer get where they can take 1500 or 4000 or however many strokes that are needed to get to the finish. that is often overlooked, and shouldn't be discounted.

- Regarding warm-ups. At times we did some hard swimming from the get-go. Basically dive in and time trial. Other times our warm-ups were anywhere from 500-1000. The get in and go sessions were a break from what I had done in swimming 'most' of the time before Brett and TeamTBB. They were not entirely new as I did a little bit of ITU racing in 2005 and 2006...so you had to just get in and go. And, you can't warm-up in a lot of swims. Most of the times, we did have a warm-up. And, if it was to be a 'hard' swim day and pool time was short, we did swim harder in the time alloted.

- The Mrs.-Tex and I swim with a masters team here in Austin...two of them at times, but not at the same time! The biggest difference in the two teams is after the warm-up. Warm-ups are usually about 1k. One team is generally a focused main set of 2k+ or so. The other is made up of several smaller main sets of 500-600...your typical masters session. Triathletes are definitely better served by the first one. Get in, get your warm-up done and keep it short. Then, knock out the main set with no chat breaks, no social time, etc. Don't 'dork' around. Be focused.

- There are times when an entire session that is little more than a warm-up can be good...if you have the time to do that.

Now, off to swim a bit. I'm going to ride to the pool so I get to do a swim/bike brick after. But, I can't remember which thread that one was in!


Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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Grant.Reuter wrote:
Comparing what the top group for wcs does is irrelevant for pretty much everyone besides them. Thats the one of the most important parts of the race for them. If you miss that group by 20 secs you may never catch the bike pack. For any other race its just 20 secs its not that big of a deal.

Especially when you consider that I also know a group of guys that are/were top-10 ITU racers, and they did NOT start every workout with an all out 400. In fact, they rarely did workouts where they didn't take a "normal" warm-up of 600-1000m. I.e., it's clearly not "necessary" to train like that be an elite WCS racer. Taking what one group does as optimal is pretty questionable when there are plenty of equivalent athletes that do not train in that fashion.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Tie around ankles so it is "snug" (but not like cutting off blood flow). Trim the excess. Go swim. Report back.


Reporting back:
The inner tube wouldn't stay tight so I used an exercise leg band ("monster walk") that I had brought along. Wrapped it around twice and it worked great.
First 25y I felt like a jelly fish with my legs hanging down, but it got better from there.
Surprisingly harder than the regular pull sets with no toys (no buoy, no paddles).
I went 1000y with the band (after 600y warmup swim, followed by another 2700y alt paddles/swim); after a while I could pretty much forget I was banded.
I could have gone 2000y; I couldn't have made 4000y banded. It was a good workout.
Interesting thing was swimming after the band workout - my legs felt high in the water. Whether they were actually higher than normal, or just higher than with the band, I don't know.

How much of the band and how much of the paddles should we be doing each week? How long before we should see improvement (as a 1:50-1:55/100y swimmer whose technique has no obvious gross flaws according to various Masters coaches)? <edit>For me the answer is not just swim more - I've just completed my 5th month of 50-55 miles/month. </edit>

Trying to figure out whether I give up on the swimming thing, add this new approach to my existing Masters etc workouts, or focus on this alone.

Thank you.
Last edited by: caf0: Dec 29, 11 10:01
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Yes start with swimming just 25s, you probably will not make a 50 at first. I find it key to try and relax. You will not drown and keeping your body relaxed will help a lot here.
Start with band and buoy first then ditch the buoy.

I have work my way up to 200 yards at a time. Great upper body workout :)



Looking like a color blind super hero!
Damn triathlon.
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [caf0] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
The inner tube wouldn't stay tight so I used an exercise leg band ("monster walk") that I had brought along. Wrapped it around twice and it worked great.
First 25y I felt like a jelly fish with my legs hanging down, but it got better from there.


http://www.amazon.com/...e-Lock/dp/B005LSGF82
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [caf0] [ In reply to ]
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caf0 wrote:

Reporting back:
...
I went 1000y with the band
...
after a while I could pretty much forget I was banded.
I could have gone 2000y; I couldn't have made 4000y banded. It was a good workout.


You're a freakin' jerk and everyone hates you.

On a more serious note, if you can swim 2000y with a band on your first time out and your masters coaches have said that your stroke has no obvious flaws, it probably IS a fitness thing (based on your 1:50/1:55 100SCY time). That sort of time would normally indicate to me that you have no catch; but I'm having difficulty wrapping my head around how someone with no catch can swim that "easily" with a band. Is that time an easy cruising long distance per 100 time, or a hard effort (not sprint) standalone 100 time?


<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
Get your FIX today?
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [Khai] [ In reply to ]
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You're a freakin' jerk and everyone hates you.
On a more serious note, if you can swim 2000y with a band on your first time out and your masters coaches have said that your stroke has no obvious flaws, it probably IS a fitness thing (based on your 1:50/1:55 100SCY time). That sort of time would normally indicate to me that you have no catch; but I'm having difficulty wrapping my head around how someone with no catch can swim that "easily" with a band. Is that time an easy cruising long distance per 100 time, or a hard effort (not sprint) standalone 100 time?

Maybe I've grown accustomed to swimming with my legs dangling?
Really, I don't know why I can't swim fast. I've been beating my head against this wall for 2 years now.
Yes, I'm slowly getting faster. I'm still stuck in the slow lane despite huge (for an AG triathlete) effort.
My all-out sprint 100y time is 1:42 (open turns since my flips are slower). My 500y TT is 9:23 (1:52.6/100y) and 1000y TT is 18:59 (1:53.9/100y).

If it is a fitness thing, then I don't know how to get more fit. I've been going to 3-5 Masters/week while swimming over 50miles/month (20-35000y/week) since August. I'm still very slow.
Don't hate the chick in the slow lane.
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [caf0] [ In reply to ]
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In that case maybe you really don't have a catch... Seek out a good coach for a few 1-on-1 lessons. I took a few several years back and once I learned how to catch water my swimming improved a tonne. I probably would have eventually figured it out if I just logged huge mileage in the pool, but a coach was able to demonstrate to me how to catch water - and more importantly, what it felt like. I didn't spend much time at all doing drills other than as part of her assessment - the change was very apparent. Of course once I learned the difference, making the change to swimming like that required a bit more strength from previously underutilized muscle groups and again, much more fitness. So fitness still is the answer. Once I learned how to swim. :p


<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
Get your FIX today?
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [Khai] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
In that case maybe you really don't have a catch... Seek out a good coach for a few 1-on-1 lessons. I took a few several years back and once I learned how to catch water my swimming improved a tonne. I probably would have eventually figured it out if I just logged huge mileage in the pool, but a coach was able to demonstrate to me how to catch water - and more importantly, what it felt like. I didn't spend much time at all doing drills other than as part of her assessment - the change was very apparent. Of course once I learned the difference, making the change to swimming like that required a bit more strength from previously underutilized muscle groups and again, much more fitness. So fitness still is the answer. Once I learned how to swim. :p

I may not have a catch. I have taken three 1-on-1 lessons, though. Two lessons from one coach were worthless imo (a list of 30 random things to work on, including making "s" shapes and breathing less - maybe the others were really good but he told me to just pick 2 and those were my 2). The 3rd was "Your stroke doesn't look that bad". My favorite Masters coach doesn't think lessons will help me, I just need to get stronger and work on feel. So ........

Maybe I check out the swimsmooth catch dvd.

Ok, I'm unfit :)
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [caf0] [ In reply to ]
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Caf0, I was in the same position as you a few years ago , logging 20 plus K weeks week after week and still swimming 37 min half Im swims and 1:15 Im swims.

While I am trying the conventional wisdom do what TBB and Paulo say and it is working for me now. The change I made was find a good swim coach, not an OWS or tri coach.

Did two sessions in her squad per week and one of my own, never swam more than 3500 metres in on session. When the Im build was getting into it I often did only two sessions per week, swam 1:04 in the IM

Did 30 mins in my half IM of the back of two sessions. Now these were not 3000 metres of drill.

500 warm up. 500 With some drill other strokes kick ie 150, 50 kick, 50 drill, 50 swim. 1500 ish main set the rest play with the toys, band pull, fins, cool down.

I don't know what is right or wrong, but two sessions to get 7 and 11 mins faster respectively and be faster on the bike and run as I was less tired seemed like a good idea.

I'm having a go at this up the volume and use the swim aids to see where I get, but there is more than one way to skin a cat
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks R and Tex, i only have an hr or two to swim 2-3x a week after work and i will try anything to maximize the time as those 2 hours really just an hr of swimming then the walk to the pool and back takes an hr tops. as early in the season which starts next week for us here in asia, i will give this a go and see where i stand. 17 years already and not a bad swimmer over here but not good enough. Building for a long race next year which is why i would want to maximize the training. appreciate the insights.
i work nights over here so i get off at work at 6am and the pool opens at 8 and closes at 4:30pm.

"Pain is NOT temporary,you remember every bit of it"
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [dennism] [ In reply to ]
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Best of 'luck'. Just mix it up. Don't limit yourself to endless sets of 100s and 200s with short rest. Do some short stuff really hard with long rest. Make sure you have different speeds. It's truly harder to swim really slow than it is to swim fast. So, make your quality quality and your easy easy.


Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [caf0] [ In reply to ]
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caf0 wrote:
Quote:
Tie around ankles so it is "snug" (but not like cutting off blood flow). Trim the excess. Go swim. Report back.


Reporting back:
The inner tube wouldn't stay tight so I used an exercise leg band ("monster walk") that I had brought along. Wrapped it around twice and it worked great.
First 25y I felt like a jelly fish with my legs hanging down, but it got better from there.
Surprisingly harder than the regular pull sets with no toys (no buoy, no paddles).
I went 1000y with the band (after 600y warmup swim, followed by another 2700y alt paddles/swim); after a while I could pretty much forget I was banded.
I could have gone 2000y; I couldn't have made 4000y banded. It was a good workout.
Interesting thing was swimming after the band workout - my legs felt high in the water. Whether they were actually higher than normal, or just higher than with the band, I don't know.

How much of the band and how much of the paddles should we be doing each week? How long before we should see improvement (as a 1:50-1:55/100y swimmer whose technique has no obvious gross flaws according to various Masters coaches)? <edit>For me the answer is not just swim more - I've just completed my 5th month of 50-55 miles/month. </edit>

Trying to figure out whether I give up on the swimming thing, add this new approach to my existing Masters etc workouts, or focus on this alone.

Thank you.

Do you kick with the band, or leave your legs completely immobile? I'm about your speed and am interested in giving the band a go.

(I think fitness is my limiter - my stroke turnover is significantly slower than anyone going sub 1:30)
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [cervelo-van] [ In reply to ]
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This & the other swim thread have got me interested, so I'll be doing some band sessions soon. (Already love my buoy & paddles.) But not sure if fitness is my limiter in swimming. If I kill myself I can go just under 1:40 in a 100 but can do 1:50s on 1000s without much trouble. Seems to me I should focus on upping my short distance speed first. Just reasoning by analogy with running (which I know better): if I could do a 10K or more at nearly my 1 mile all out pace, I'd work on upping the mile pace.
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Do you kick with the band, or leave your legs completely immobile? I'm about your speed and am interested in giving the band a go.

No kicking. It isn't possible to flutter with your ankles tied tightly together. I suppose you could do a bit of a dolphin, but I think the intent is for them to be of no assistance.
I'm giving it a go. I've tried about everything; I have nothing to lose. I have until May.
Best of luck to us both!
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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To me, you are saying is that endurance is important. I cannot disagree. Triathlon is basically a running race with some other stuff to distract and wear people down.

By the way, that was a really, really long response.
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Re: Brett frommTeam TBB on swimming [Supersquid] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the pointer - I picked one up. The double-wrapped leg band was a bit tight for distance.
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