Breathing Like a Swimmer at the track !!!!

Sep 24, 20 6:58

Post #1 of 26 (2150 views)

So I spent the last 5 years primarily as a swimmer doing the majority of my really hard training in the pool. In the pool when going hard, I am barely breathing 25 times per minute because I cannot access oxygen fast enough (I do realize there is breathing on every arm entry which would double the rate, but its hard to get that timing down without creathing a lot of drag).

When I was mainly a runner and triathlete, when I was crusing I would breath 45 times per minute (every second right foot strike), moderate would be 60 (breath right foot. step left step right, breath left)...really hard 90 time per minute (every right).

So lately I have been running at the track doing 400's, 800's, 1000's and 1600's to try to get some semblance of faster running (my body can handle it now after a 5 year hiatus with a few accidents involved).

In any case, I was doing 400 repeats and found myself barely breathing at 30 times per minute (like swimming)....when I have infinite oxygen access!!! So I had to force myself back to old breathing pattens and voila, my speed dropped by 3-5 second per 400m repeat!!!! Its like I was on the reverse EPO program depriving my body of oxygen!

I actually found breathing 90 times per minute difficult....60 was great. I will have to see what I am doing for breathing on bike intervals. I really have not done enough to notice if I am breathing like a swimmer on the bike.

Re: Breathing Like a Swimmer at the track !!!! [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Sep 24, 20 7:00

Post #2 of 26 (2146 views)

Maybe this is why I find myself holding my breath quite often.

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5

Re: Breathing Like a Swimmer at the track !!!! [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Sep 24, 20 7:06

Post #3 of 26 (2139 views)

devashish_paul wrote:

(I do realize there is breathing on every arm entry which would double the rate, but its hard to get that timing down without creathing a lot of drag).

I tried this recently after reading some reports that it's a good way to swim in theory but I was nowhere close to pulling it off, seemed super-awkward and disorienting. I suppose with practice it would get better.

Re: Breathing Like a Swimmer at the track !!!! [rosshm] [ In reply to ]

Sep 24, 20 7:16

Post #4 of 26 (2128 views)

rosshm wrote:

devashish_paul wrote:

(I do realize there is breathing on every arm entry which would double the rate, but its hard to get that timing down without creathing a lot of drag).

I tried this recently after reading some reports that it's a good way to swim in theory but I was nowhere close to pulling it off, seemed super-awkward and disorienting. I suppose with practice it would get better.

Sun Yang will do it in and out of turns. That’s really the only time I’ve seen it as part of an elite ‘s stroke.

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5

Re: Breathing Like a Swimmer at the track !!!! [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Sep 24, 20 7:24

Post #5 of 26 (2118 views)

devashish_paul wrote:

When I was mainly a runner and triathlete, when I was cruising I would breathe 45 times per minute (every second right foot strike), moderate would be 60 (breathe right foot, step left, step right, breathe left)...really hard 90 time per minute (every right).

I have found that switching from breathing on the right footstrike to breathing on the left helps alleviate side stitches, too

YMMV

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Re: Breathing Like a Swimmer at the track !!!! [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Sep 24, 20 7:38

Post #6 of 26 (2091 views)

If you came of age as a runner in the 60's and 70's you were taught to breath in a rhythm based on foot fall. As a swimmer as well as a cross country and track athlete this made perfect since to me as a child. it is very much wrong to limit your air intake while exercising. It was many years later that I was finally convinced that when you run you should breath when you need and not worry about a pattern.

Being primarily a swimmer you may have automatically fallen into this trap, and it is tough to get out of the habit. I suggest that you either slow down a little and concentrate on breathing or you speed up a lot where you have no choice.

"...the street finds its own uses for things"

Re: Breathing Like a Swimmer at the track !!!! [boobooaboo] [ In reply to ]

Sep 24, 20 7:46

Post #7 of 26 (2078 views)

boobooaboo wrote:

rosshm wrote:

devashish_paul wrote:

(I do realize there is breathing on every arm entry which would double the rate, but its hard to get that timing down without creathing a lot of drag).

I tried this recently after reading some reports that it's a good way to swim in theory but I was nowhere close to pulling it off, seemed super-awkward and disorienting. I suppose with practice it would get better.

Sun Yang will do it in and out of turns. That’s really the only time I’ve seen it as part of an elite ‘s stroke.

I do my own self conconcted "event" that is 400 fly-free (4 times 50 fly+50 free). Coming out of th 50 fly and turn depending on how hard I take the fly I do the Sun Yang thing for the first 2-4 arm entries and then go to breathing on my right side only. I think it was in the Rio Olympics the kid who lead the swim pack was breathing every arm entry for a large chunk of the race (so basically breathing like a runner during the swim leg). I think the key is to get the drag down enough that the additional oxygen makes you faster. At the other end Phelps breaths every stroke in a 100 fly whereas others do every second stroke. But he has gotten his drag so low that even in that short sub 60 minute duration, even though he technically did more work, he had more oxygen to do it with.

In any case, would be curious to hear for those of you who are primarily swimmers what your breathing patterns ends up like when you run hard. In running we can exhale hard (and the intake takes care of itself). In swimming you have to wait until you can exhale hard (you can start with a slow release and then a final hard release depending on pace just before you get back to air)

Re: Breathing Like a Swimmer at the track !!!! [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Sep 24, 20 8:10

Post #8 of 26 (2051 views)

Dev,

Thank you for posting this. Yet another example of why I teach breathing first for swimmers!! That switch from land based to aquatic based breathing takes focused work and practice. When I get my breathing going on the run, I feel amazing. It is always the one thing holding me back while running.
Great post!
As a swimmer going to the run, one def needs to adapt to a much quicker breathing pattern than in the water. While I do try to work on this when I just go running... the track is def the place to fully engage in this practice.
super

daved

http://www.theundergroundcoach.com

Re: Breathing Like a Swimmer at the track !!!! [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Sep 24, 20 8:50

Post #9 of 26 (2018 views)

This has to do with getting fuller/deeper breaths and not short shallow ones. For example, when I am sitting at my desk working I do somewhat breathing exercises and find I am fine/feel better taking 3-4 long, slow, deep breaths a minute. Breathe in, hold for a brief second, breathe out.

Swimming we don’t have the luxury of a long inhale, but can do a long exhale to make sure when we go to inhale we can get as much oxygen as possible. I.e. you shouldn’t waste your inhale time exhaling.

Running is different as there are no limits, but slower, relatively speaking, deeper breaths are better than shorter quicker breaths.

Re: Breathing Like a Swimmer at the track !!!! [daved] [ In reply to ]

Sep 24, 20 9:10

Post #10 of 26 (1996 views)

daved wrote:

Dev,

Thank you for posting this. Yet another example of why I teach breathing first for swimmers!! That switch from land based to aquatic based breathing takes focused work and practice. When I get my breathing going on the run, I feel amazing. It is always the one thing holding me back while running.
Great post!
As a swimmer going to the run, one def needs to adapt to a much quicker breathing pattern than in the water. While I do try to work on this when I just go running... the track is def the place to fully engage in this practice.
super

daved

Daved, when you go to the track...try this...focus on EXHALE only 45 times per minute, then try 60 (pattern described above), then try 90...just exhale instantly when you get to 90. Swimmers have to kind of hold the air momentarily before letting it go (if you let it go early with a forceful runner exhale you will drown because your stroke cycle did not get you to air)....running, you can get rid of all that C02 quickly....my 400m pace instantly went faster as soon as I switched back to runner breathing from swimmer. its just that I am not used to runner breathing as all my intensity training for 5 years has been pool based, but I know how to do that.

Now off to the pool. Morning 10x400m on the track (equivalent of 10x100m in the pool which as a swimmer we do all the time, but as a runner we do that high intensity stuff infrequently). This afternoon will be 5x200IM...in that 20 min set I will barely breath 400 times....running in the same intensity duration set (10x400m with 100m jogging takes me around the saame time), I can breath 1200 times!

Re: Breathing Like a Swimmer at the track !!!! [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Sep 24, 20 9:32

Post #11 of 26 (1975 views)

Dev,

For sure! I will and I will get back to you on this.

Great work.

daved

http://www.theundergroundcoach.com

Re: Breathing Like a Swimmer at the track !!!! [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Sep 24, 20 11:10

Post #12 of 26 (1911 views)

devashish_paul wrote:

In any case, would be curious to hear for those of you who are primarily swimmers what your breathing patterns ends up like when you run hard. In running we can exhale hard (and the intake takes care of itself). In swimming you have to wait until you can exhale hard (you can start with a slow release and then a final hard release depending on pace just before you get back to air)

Is this a trick question? Does anyone actually try to control their respiration rate while running? To what end?

I take exactly the number of breaths needed. No more, and no less. I certainly don't think about it.

Triathletes are weird.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Re: Breathing Like a Swimmer at the track !!!! [klehner] [ In reply to ]

Sep 24, 20 11:25

Post #13 of 26 (1891 views)

klehner wrote:

devashish_paul wrote:

In any case, would be curious to hear for those of you who are primarily swimmers what your breathing patterns ends up like when you run hard. In running we can exhale hard (and the intake takes care of itself). In swimming you have to wait until you can exhale hard (you can start with a slow release and then a final hard release depending on pace just before you get back to air)

Is this a trick question? Does anyone actually try to control their respiration rate while running? To what end?

I take exactly the number of breaths needed. No more, and no less. I certainly don't think about it.

Triathletes are weird.

Ya, agree 100%. The thought has never even occurred to me to not breath simply as needed when I'm doing anything on land, be it running, cycling, rowing, walking, or whatever.

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Re: Breathing Like a Swimmer at the track !!!! [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Sep 24, 20 11:34

Post #14 of 26 (1877 views)

I think a benefit of swimming is "efficiency" with breathing. Actually fully inhaling (quickly, obviously because otherwise you'll suck in water) and fully exhaling (very important for offloading CO2). Have to make every breath count.

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5

Re: Breathing Like a Swimmer at the track !!!! [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]

Sep 24, 20 12:02

Post #15 of 26 (1856 views)

Perhaps you two should consider raising your awareness of your breathing...?

One of our primary responses to stress/load/fear etc is to limit our breathing by taking in some air and holding it. We do this without thought or intention. Notice this next time you raise a glass of water or beer or wine to your mouth and take a drink. You will do a slight inhale and then hold it. Or better, observe this in others.

Specifically with swimming, in all of my experience, 100% of breathing issues have to do with this primary response and then NOT exhaling. We are a breath holding animal. It is primal. So once you understand that you can then deal with it and work on breathing more effectively for your activity.

My experience and expertise is in the water. But what would your response be to someone who is running or riding and says they have a side stitch/cramp? Im pretty sure you would recommend exhaling more fully or worded otherwise as, belly breathing (which is a way to get someone to breath in and out w more volume) bc that primary breathing response isn't cutting it anymore.

This is the crux of our conversation. Thanks for your input.. though the insult, ken was not needed. TBH
daved

http://www.theundergroundcoach.com

Re: Breathing Like a Swimmer at the track !!!! [klehner] [ In reply to ]

Sep 24, 20 13:00

Post #16 of 26 (1798 views)

klehner wrote:

Is this a trick question? Does anyone actually try to control their respiration rate while running? To what end?

I take exactly the number of breaths needed. No more, and no less. I certainly don't think about it.

Triathletes are weird.

I have had to pay it some attention this year, yes. However, that's been specifically as a result of recovering from surgery. I found myself taking rapid shallow breaths, to avoid some discomfort of fully expanding my chest cavity. I also found this semi-hyperventilating was causing my hear-rate to be slightly. Or rather, if I paid it some attention and "worked" to breath in a more normal rhythm my heart rate would fall by 5 bpm or so.

So, I had to relearn to relax and breath normally while running, again. That's no longer the norm (breathing with intent), but its funny...once you get into a habit like that, it's kinda hard to break. I do sometimes catch myself semi-unconsciously manipulating my breathing now---and have to tell myself, "relax...just breath, don't count." Then I try and distract myself with birds, or goats, or the copper head I almost stepped on yesterday.

Re: Breathing Like a Swimmer at the track !!!! [klehner] [ In reply to ]

Sep 24, 20 13:11

Post #17 of 26 (1786 views)

klehner wrote:

devashish_paul wrote:

Is this a trick question? Does anyone actually try to control their respiration rate while running? To what end?

I take exactly the number of breaths needed. No more, and no less. I certainly don't think about it.

I've never heard anyone coach it in running, but in cycling I have. Something like a V02 interval, some begin to almost hold their breath as they try to muscle the effort. If you concentrate on forceful exhales before your breathing becomes labored you can usually last longer before your breathing starts getting ragged. I've thought about it occasionally on something like 400m running repeats where on the first couple my legs are hurting but my breath rate is pretty low.

Re: Breathing Like a Swimmer at the track !!!! [Geronimo] [ In reply to ]

Sep 24, 20 13:37

Post #18 of 26 (1770 views)

Geronimo wrote:

klehner wrote:

devashish_paul wrote:

Is this a trick question? Does anyone actually try to control their respiration rate while running? To what end?

I take exactly the number of breaths needed. No more, and no less. I certainly don't think about it.

I've never heard anyone coach it in running, but in cycling I have. Something like a V02 interval, some begin to almost hold their breath as they try to muscle the effort. If you concentrate on forceful exhales before your breathing becomes labored you can usually last longer before your breathing starts getting ragged. I've thought about it occasionally on something like 400m running repeats where on the first couple my legs are hurting but my breath rate is pretty low.

I was a middle distance runner in HS (400-1600m events). Breathing techniques were definitely part of the coaching regimen when I was in track several decades ago. The forceful exhale has long been a part of the repertoire, both for staving off fatigue and holding form, and helping to manage side stitches.

Last edited by: Tom_hampton: Sep 24, 20 13:38

Re: Breathing Like a Swimmer at the track !!!! [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]

Sep 24, 20 15:14

Post #19 of 26 (1713 views)

Tom_hampton wrote:

klehner wrote:

Is this a trick question? Does anyone actually try to control their respiration rate while running? To what end?

I take exactly the number of breaths needed. No more, and no less. I certainly don't think about it.

Triathletes are weird.

I have had to pay it some attention this year, yes. However, that's been specifically as a result of recovering from surgery. I found myself taking rapid shallow breaths, to avoid some discomfort of fully expanding my chest cavity. I also found this semi-hyperventilating was causing my hear-rate to be slightly. Or rather, if I paid it some attention and "worked" to breath in a more normal rhythm my heart rate would fall by 5 bpm or so.

So, I had to relearn to relax and breath normally while running, again. That's no longer the norm (breathing with intent), but its funny...once you get into a habit like that, it's kinda hard to break. I do sometimes catch myself semi-unconsciously manipulating my breathing now---and have to tell myself, "relax...just breath, don't count." Then I try and distract myself with birds, or goats, or the copper head I almost stepped on yesterday.

Hi Tom, after my disc injuries in 2015, I stopped breathing deep (belly breathing) as it would hurt the disc area on every breath, so I was doing upper chest breathing. This literally went on for 4 years until last year when I realized I can could breath deep with no pain....I could have done that 2 years before that, but never realized what I was doing. Even now, I just end gravitation towards upper chest breathing when just sitting around (forget about sport).

By the way, in back stroke I gravitate towards left arm entry inhale, right arm entry exhale like in freestyle, whereas it is completely possible when the intensity is high to breath in every stroke. But its wired in from freestyle and hard to break out of.

Glad to see your post surgery progress is so awesome....are you targeting a sub 20 min 5km or something now that your pipes are cleared out???

Re: Breathing Like a Swimmer at the track !!!! [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Sep 24, 20 18:10

Post #20 of 26 (1645 views)

devashish_paul wrote:

Glad to see your post surgery progress is so awesome....are you targeting a sub 20 min 5km or something now that your pipes are cleared out???

Thanks.

I haven't formulated any specific plan as of yet. But, I have a general notion of a retry at the sub-40 10k on my Heartiversary (12 Feb 2021). But, I've got 4 1/2 months left. I just started doing some tempo and hill workouts in the last couple weeks. I've scaled my weekly run volume back to about 60 mpw now that GVRAT is over.

I'm still about 13s/k off my pace from last December (4:38/k today vice 4:25/k) for equal efforts. I'm gaining about 4s/k per week on my weekly tempo run...so, shouldn't be too long before I'm close. I've haven't started doing any speedwork (other than 12-15 strides per week).

Re: Breathing Like a Swimmer at the track !!!! [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 20 7:39

Post #21 of 26 (1503 views)

I resent the title of this thread

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Re: Breathing Like a Swimmer at the track !!!! [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 20 8:24

Post #22 of 26 (1480 views)

I have been running for 45 years and it never has occurred to me nor have I ever heard people talk about how often they breath. I always just breathed according to how much air I felt I needed.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Re: Breathing Like a Swimmer at the track !!!! [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 20 9:05

Post #23 of 26 (1457 views)

Dr. Tigerchik wrote:

I resent the title of this thread

We've all seen how fish out of water breath. It's not pretty. :-)

Re: Breathing Like a Swimmer at the track !!!! [spockwaslen] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 20 12:06

Post #24 of 26 (1418 views)

spockwaslen wrote:

I have been running for 45 years and it never has occurred to me nor have I ever heard people talk about how often they breath. I always just breathed according to how much air I felt I needed.

You did not get the point....the angle was swimmers continuing to breath like swimmers when they get to running when they don't need to and breathing more often is possible! As for breathing while running your may be more sychronized than you think because how the diaphram is moving does affect the force in each stride given how the psoas connects upper and lower body. I bet you are not breathing in deep at push off even though you think you are breathing whenever you want. You are likely breathing when both feet are in the air.

Re: Breathing Like a Swimmer at the track !!!! [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Sep 25, 20 14:49

Post #25 of 26 (1370 views)

devashish_paul wrote:

spockwaslen wrote:

I have been running for 45 years and it never has occurred to me nor have I ever heard people talk about how often they breath. I always just breathed according to how much air I felt I needed.

You did not get the point....the angle was swimmers continuing to breath like swimmers when they get to running when they don't need to and breathing more often is possible! As for breathing while running your may be more sychronized than you think because how the diaphram is moving does affect the force in each stride given how the psoas connects upper and lower body. I bet you are not breathing in deep at push off even though you think you are breathing whenever you want. You are likely breathing when both feet are in the air.

https://www.outsideonline.com/2416993/synchronized-breathing-running-study

Came across this just now. I guess I am not that intrarspective. I went back and read your original post. Funny how we fall into patterns. I find when I am getting breathless whilst swimming it gets better when I concentrate on exhaling more.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Last edited by: spockwaslen: Sep 25, 20 14:51

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