Great article Herbert. Hopefully you can go to more tunnel tests.

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Good stuff Herbert. .211 is a pretty darn good number for someone of Brad's size. A few more questions for either you or Brad:

- Will we get to see a spreadsheet on this?
- Did he try both the Rudy Project and make the switch the sleeveless rear zip at the same time?
- It appears he will be racing in a rear zip, sleeveless tri suit and then adding on the Wings in T1? I
- If so is Brad happy about using the rear zip for the swim as a possible swim benefit? Personally, I really liked the rear zip, sans swimskin solution myself.

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The shoe results are certainly interesting. The lace cover and lack of buckles and straps would make you think the Bonts wouldn't suck, but..... I bet he could spend another hour testing shoes and find 5 more watts. Those Scotts certainly don't look that clean.

Great article. Minor correction: I believe his name is spelled "Geoff" not "Jeff".

I bought those Bonts thinking they looked aero on the Web site, but they're really very bulky with a ton of surface area, and the cover doesn't fit well at all I didn't test them, but I sold them after a few months and jumped on the Empire bandwagon.

how many runs are they getting on each setup? I have trouble believing you can do a solid test on that many things in 2 hours.

What's the swim benefit of a rear zip? I can see the swim benefit of a sleeveless trisuit which maybe gives more freedom of movement in the shoulders, and then putting on something like the Kiwami Wings in T1 for aero on the bike. Just struggling to see the benefit of where the zip goes.

I made an error where I misunderstood what was said. The shoes were 4 watts worse at 0 and 2 watts worse at 7.5 yaw. Sorry

I'm not,
there is a reason that bonts dont test as well as they look, they are massively wide.

Why do you think the empires are so fast? narrow, close to cranks due to hole position.

First off, big thanks for Herbert for taking time out of his day to make the drive to the tunnel and for doing this article. I owe a big thanks to the ST community for getting me to where I was before stepping into the wind tunnel, many discussions and data posted on here led me to where I was before arriving. Was really happy to start the day off at .221 (at 0 Yaw) and .209 (at -7.5 Yaw). Those were the two angles that we tested at throughout my whole run, 0 and -7.5. I will try to answer as much as I can, and anything that I cannot answer, I will defer to Brian Stover of Accelerate3 / AeroCamp. I assume he will pop on here from time to time, and will be sure to correct me if I post anything inaccurate. Of note, I have been away from the family for 6 days, so my responses may be a bit sporadic, but will be engaged in this thread as much as possible, may just see some delay.


Lastly, I realize this is ST and there will be plenty of criticism of how, why, when, and what we did ;)


To start off, per your request Thomas.


- Will we get to see a spreadsheet on this?
No, I will not be posting/publishing the spreadsheet / full data set, I think I have been pretty gracious with the data and allowing Herbert to be there and publish what he has.
- Did he try both the Rudy Project and make the switch the sleeveless rear zip at the same time? No, all changes were made one at a time.
- It appears he will be racing in a rear zip, sleeveless tri suit and then adding on the Wings in T1? Not necessarily, the numbers were pretty dang close and depending on the race scenario will depend on what I wear. The LD1 has some other perks over the WS1, one being sun protection as I already have some skin damage on my shoulders and back.
- If so is Brad happy about using the rear zip for the swim as a possible swim benefit? Personally, I really liked the rear zip, sans swimskin solution myself. I have yet to test the WS1 vs the blueseventy swimskin I use. I know you have and you have seen results in favor of the WS1, when I test I will make that decision. The other thing to note is that you would be stationary putting the "Wings" on in T1, where as you can be running and put the LD1 on, assuming the transition area is long, which seems to be the case more often than not.


Lastly, .211 was at 0 Yaw, walked out of there at .201 at -7.5.

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-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
Partnered with: Zoot Sports | Precision Fuel &Hydration | ISM

As trail and TriBryan posted below, the bonts are pretty wide and "bulky". The Scotts although not "clean", they are quite a bit narrower, and I have a narrow foot, which I would be led to believe is the main contributor to the 4w @0 / 2w @-7.5 difference. (see below, Herbert corrected the article from the original 6 watts).

And yeah, if anyone wants to fund some more testing, I am sure I could find more stuff to tinker with ;)

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-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
Partnered with: Zoot Sports | Precision Fuel &Hydration | ISM

Which is why they are not comfy for some of us.... :(

ime you need to modify the Bont's to get them near some of the other aero options. There are a lot of extra bits Bont put on those shoes for no reason. As said though, chunky is a problem. Also pedaling style (toe down or flat) matters most likely.

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

me neither!!!

Cookiebuilder wrote:

how many runs are they getting on each setup? I have trouble believing you can do a solid test on that many things in 2 hours.

Brian had responded to your question on the article page where you asked there as well:
"We re-ran multiple baselines. Ideally though to really understand it, you need to be in the tunnel watching. It's much easier to grasp what's going on and the why's behind everything if you're there."- Brian Stover


And then here are my thoughts/response to your statement question:


Like he said, unless you have been or are there you won't fully grasp it. I have followed along with a lot of the testing they have done and have pestered Brian over the years. Most of which is why I was where I was with equipment and such before entering the tunnel. So much of this stuff is rider dependent that it was time to enter the tunnel on my own and invest in my future. I have had 5 races where 1-2 places ahead were within 90secs (I will detail those out in a later post with $$ lost), and that is roughly what we found in the tunnel yesterday if I was to ride "perfect". So needless to say I believe it is a worthy investment and trust Brian, the A2 Staff (Geoff), and the tunnel / process.


Lastly, we did 8 runs tweaking the position, and I believe that took 70-80mins, and then 10 runs after that which were much quicker. There were a few times that we had already made the changes and had to wait for the fans to stop before starting again as we had made the changes that quick. So 18 runs in 2 hours is something I am happy with, and we got through almost everything I wanted to.

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-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
Partnered with: Zoot Sports | Precision Fuel &Hydration | ISM

Personally, My neckline would sometimes drop with a front zip; stays tight with WS1 (this could affect swim and bike speed)

Is it just me or do those numbers seem very low for that position? Lots of helmet sticking up above back. But then again those photos may not be the position he was in for the test runs.

'

Yes. Although most of those photos are probably the "baseline" thing or whatever it's called at the beginning. Otherwise watchers/helpers have to be out of the tunnel and back in the control room.

.211 seems eerily low for someone as big as Brad is, no matter how aero the equipment is. Testing anything on the feet that's small is basically a complete crap shoot. I tested booties and they tested worse but when I reviewed video of my runs my body position had shifted minutely (although not that minutely since it was visible on video) thus making the "result" basically worthless. 1 run completely wasted!? That's like...$50. haha

I am not always invited nor do I always have time. But it is always good to learn a little

My guess is the eyeball windtunnel starts to lose its accuracy around a CdA of .22. The Fitwerks guy is 6'3"-former rower and he pegged a 0.19 on the Felt track bike. Obree is tall and went 0.185 wearing his old skinsuit. Loads of the UK CTT crowd under 0.18. Some of these guys don't look aero at all, but barely have to pedal at 40K.

There could be. Another 10-20 watts in position changes, but it may just be too big a compromise for a 1/2 and full IM.

“That position”, guess my position isn’t that great in your book. Been riding quite fast in “decent” W/kg for a few years now, always have said I am a W/CdA guy and not a W/kg guy.

Here is the position very close from “real world” a few weeks back.

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-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
Partnered with: Zoot Sports | Precision Fuel &Hydration | ISM

[quote] the eyeball windtunnel starts to lose its accuracy[/quote]

For most people it starts to lose accuracy the minute you turn it on. For those that have tested a lot it's not too far behind. I'm usually decent, say 55/45 guessing within .015 of someone's initial CdA but I was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off on Brad's 1st run. I may not have included enough a's in way either

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Thanks for sharing. It looked pretty good to me.

I think 2 hours is right on the verge of the right amount of time to spend... maybe 90' if you could split the 3rd hour with someone. You really can fit a ton of stuff in (depending on how many sweeps you do and what all you have to test out... along with who's in the tunnel helping, which obviously you had nailed down.)

The bad thing about a tunnel visit is you leave with so many more questions than answers... I need to win the lottery :D

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

Don't see an attachment. And no, you don't look particularly aero, which you obviously are based on these numbers! That is world class CdA for long course tri I'd have to imagine! So doesn't really matter what it looks like (as the conversation is agreeing on).