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Bob Babbitt Andrew Messick
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I saw that Messick is one of the people being interviewed today. Considering Bob mostly interviews professionals I would hope that he would ask him some questions like:

-Why is there less prize money for pros next year? (ex. St George dropping from $100k to $75k, Steelhead $50k to $30)

-With it being the 40th Anniversary and Amazon being the sponsor, why isn’t their more prize money this year in Kona?
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Re: Bob Babbitt Andrew Messick [timmywins] [ In reply to ]
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Have you watched a Bob Babbitt interview before?

Don't expect anything earth shattering. Bob is a great guy but he is a terrible journalist. He never asks hard/leading questions or follow up questions when someone softballs something up there for him.

And Messick wouldn't accept an interview if he didn't already know what he's going to be asked.

get comfortable being uncomfortable
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Re: Bob Babbitt Andrew Messick [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
Have you watched a Bob Babbitt interview before?

Don't expect anything earth shattering. Bob is a great guy but he is a terrible journalist. He never asks hard/leading questions or follow up questions when someone softballs something up there for him.

And Messick wouldn't accept an interview if he didn't already know what he's going to be asked.

I agree with you re. his style and that it's insane to expect these questions from him, but I don't think that makes him a terrible journalist. Or even a journalist for that matter. He's just a "TV" host that has a very specific approach. Nothing wrong with that IMO.
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Re: Bob Babbitt Andrew Messick [timmywins] [ In reply to ]
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I thought bob owned part of ironman university.

So I doubt he will ever ask messick a real question.

Messick is a scum bag.



Rhymenocerus wrote:
I think everyone should consult ST before they do anything.
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Re: Bob Babbitt Andrew Messick [timmywins] [ In reply to ]
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I doubt Bob would ask those questions, but they are very important ones nonetheless! I don't see why he couldn't ask those questions though, they are fair game.

Professional prize money has stagnated and even decreased for many years now (without counting inflation which makes it even worse). It is especially annoying for us PRO's considering that Ironman is a very profitable business and they only give back around 3% of their revenue to PRO's! Compare that to NBA (45%), NFL (50%), PGA (75%) and ATP Tennis (75%) and you can see that triathletes are getting straight f*****.

Ironman charges very high entry fees for you AGE GROUP athletes, and has a pretty bad refund/ cancellation policy. They use those enormous entry fees for nothing really, just to have the highest revenue possible, which I understand is the goal of a business, but PRO's are worth much more than 3% of their business! Going back in history, the Iron War, the legends of the sport, past and present, contribute enormously to Ironman's popularity and awareness in the world which is huge for their business. An increase in prize money would help professionals live from the sport, show that they're less greedy, and legitimize the whole process for anyone in triathlon.
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Re: Bob Babbitt Andrew Messick [rudyvonberg] [ In reply to ]
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It is especially annoying for us PRO's considering that Ironman is a very profitable business and they only give back around 3% of their revenue to PRO's! //

You really think so?? I mean the Chinese paid almost a billion dollars for this company, I doubt that there is any profit after servicing that debt. And it may take a decade for the actual value of the company to catch up with the purchase price(if it ever does), just like the last buyer had to wait for the bigger sucker to get out of their hole. Not sure there are any more bigger suckers out there though, who can swallow a whale??


Anyway Messick does not own ironman, and he answers to folks that are very pissed off now that they know they got hornswoggled into a really bad deal. As long as you all show up and race for less and less prize money, they will think it is ok to cut it. You willing to take a stand yet? Of course not, where you gonna go, and unless you can get most of your peers to do the same, it will be business as usual, until you are racing for 1985 money in 2020...
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Re: Bob Babbitt Andrew Messick [rudyvonberg] [ In reply to ]
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rudyvonberg wrote:
but PRO's are worth much more than 3% of their business! Going back in history, the Iron War, the legends of the sport, past and present, contribute enormously to Ironman's popularity and awareness in the world which is huge for their business. An increase in prize money would help professionals live from the sport, show that they're less greedy, and legitimize the whole process for anyone in triathlon.

So why then do pros continue to race with WTC when far greater race companies have come in before, offered great purses and many pros still would choose WTC.

If the pros really left or dropped racing WTC so much and went to Challenge (had the chance with REV 3), etc. would WTC still survive? I think so.

WTC doesn't value pros because they do not need to value pros.

Until Kona doesn't stay what it is right now nothing will change.

Unfortunately many pros stick with WTC because they want to do Kona, thus keeping WTC and Ironman relevant and desirable for everyone.
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Re: Bob Babbitt Andrew Messick [rudyvonberg] [ In reply to ]
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rudyvonberg wrote:
I doubt Bob would ask those questions, but they are very important ones nonetheless! I don't see why he couldn't ask those questions though, they are fair game.

Professional prize money has stagnated and even decreased for many years now (without counting inflation which makes it even worse). It is especially annoying for us PRO's considering that Ironman is a very profitable business and they only give back around 3% of their revenue to PRO's! Compare that to NBA (45%), NFL (50%), PGA (75%) and ATP Tennis (75%) and you can see that triathletes are getting straight f*****.

Ironman charges very high entry fees for you AGE GROUP athletes, and has a pretty bad refund/ cancellation policy. They use those enormous entry fees for nothing really, just to have the highest revenue possible, which I understand is the goal of a business, but PRO's are worth much more than 3% of their business! Going back in history, the Iron War, the legends of the sport, past and present, contribute enormously to Ironman's popularity and awareness in the world which is huge for their business. An increase in prize money would help professionals live from the sport, show that they're less greedy, and legitimize the whole process for anyone in triathlon.

Yet another pro triathlete who doesn't understand how the world works. Stick to what you're good at - swim, bike and run.
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Re: Bob Babbitt Andrew Messick [logella] [ In reply to ]
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logella wrote:
rudyvonberg wrote:
I doubt Bob would ask those questions, but they are very important ones nonetheless! I don't see why he couldn't ask those questions though, they are fair game.

Professional prize money has stagnated and even decreased for many years now (without counting inflation which makes it even worse). It is especially annoying for us PRO's considering that Ironman is a very profitable business and they only give back around 3% of their revenue to PRO's! Compare that to NBA (45%), NFL (50%), PGA (75%) and ATP Tennis (75%) and you can see that triathletes are getting straight f*****.

Ironman charges very high entry fees for you AGE GROUP athletes, and has a pretty bad refund/ cancellation policy. They use those enormous entry fees for nothing really, just to have the highest revenue possible, which I understand is the goal of a business, but PRO's are worth much more than 3% of their business! Going back in history, the Iron War, the legends of the sport, past and present, contribute enormously to Ironman's popularity and awareness in the world which is huge for their business. An increase in prize money would help professionals live from the sport, show that they're less greedy, and legitimize the whole process for anyone in triathlon.

Yet another pro triathlete who doesn't understand how the world works. Stick to what you're good at - swim, bike and run.

You are a total a-hole. A pro comes on this forum and makes a cohesive and cogent case for more money for pros, and you invoke the typical capitalist BS to dismiss him. You should suck it and go back behind the rock you crawled out from.
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Re: Bob Babbitt Andrew Messick [rudyvonberg] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Rudy, I have not rolled up the totals this year, but a few years ago WTC gave out more in Ironman prize money than the Tour De France gave out over 21 stages. Not saying that the ASO should not give out more money to pro riders, but I think that's a better comparison point than the NFL. People pay to go watch the NFL. Only age group triathletes "pay" to go watch pros in the sense that we buy box seats to the pro race that happens while we race. But we're not there just to kind of get a glimpse of you, Lionel, Frodo etc. We're there to exercise with a time clock and the pro race is a benefit that comes with the package....so that's probably why WTC can give you 3% of the gate vs pro team sports giving away 45%+ because at the team sport events, the fans are there for nothing else other than watching the pros....the age groupers who pay to be in the tri stadium, we're doing a whole lot of other things with our entry fee....let's say we are doing 15 other things other than watching the pros, then one fifteenth of 45% is down at 3%. I think this is the problem of being a pro athlete in a participation sport.
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Re: Bob Babbitt Andrew Messick [RallySavage] [ In reply to ]
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You disagree with my tone. Fair enough. But this really made me laugh.

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a cohesive and cogent case for more money for pros
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Re: Bob Babbitt Andrew Messick [logella] [ In reply to ]
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logella wrote:
You disagree with my tone. Fair enough. But this really made me laugh.

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a cohesive and cogent case for more money for pros

Weak
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Re: Bob Babbitt Andrew Messick [logella] [ In reply to ]
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So what are you good at? Please inform us why you chose to respond to his comments in that manner.
Last edited by: Mark Lemmon: Oct 10, 18 19:25
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Re: Bob Babbitt Andrew Messick [CU427] [ In reply to ]
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Unfortunately many pros stick with WTC because they want to do Kona, thus keeping WTC and Ironman relevant and desirable for everyone.

--------

It was an company that was a major sponsor for Rev3 events that gave more sponsor bonuses to pros for WTC events and no sponsor kickback from the very events it was one of the leading sponsors for....something about that makes no sense to me, but that's where pros are.

Pros stick with IM/WTC because it has the industry following and yes that's mainly because of Kona.

-USAT L2 coach, M.S. Exercise Physiology
http://www.aomultisport.com
instagram-@alloutmultisport
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Re: Bob Babbitt Andrew Messick [monty] [ In reply to ]
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 As long as you all show up and race for less and less prize money, they will think it is ok to cut it. You willing to take a stand yet? Of course not, where you gonna go, and unless you can get most of your peers to do the same, it will be business as usual,

--------

It's been analyzed and studied by people far smarter than me, that in almost all "athletic union stoppages" the actual people that take a stand rarely ever see the actual benefits from it, it's the next generation of athletes that see the real benefit from the stand. It's even worse when your talking independent contractors in a weak ass money sport like triathlon....So you can suggest they take a stand for more money, but in reality they are only eating into their own profit to help the next guy coming up have it better. That's a hard ask when your an athlete in a very time sensitive career. Father time is undefeated so far.....this aint an 30 year accounting career. This can be a 3/5/10 year "career".

ETA: Look at Frodo, he's been in IM for what 4-5 years and I'm already hearing talks of retiring. Some have the great life like NZ'er cant think of his name whos plugging along at what 45+ years old..Cam Brown? or something like that. It's even harder when you have no real union to back you and.

In reality it's not even fighting WTC. The reason all these big industry sports are successful and powerful is because they are needed. Pros I certainly think are needed, but more as a "business" expense need for WTC..not as a sole reason like the NFL needs to players, etc. So the pros could do a 2 year work stoppage in Kona until they get better money, and it's only going to improve a degree. It's not going to be earth shattering, thus is it worth it for an LC pro to miss 1 out 7 chances in his life for marginal gains. The pros have "no hand" essentially. I certainly think they are needed to showcase as the big cog in this IM wheel, but they are only a cog in that WTC has 5 other cogs that make it all work. And that's no fault of the pros. That's simply the reality when your sport has almost zero revenue from media appeal. ESPN or Fox or FX isnt battling in board rooms to get them on their media stations. That's where the big money and the need for player unions really comes in handy.

-USAT L2 coach, M.S. Exercise Physiology
http://www.aomultisport.com
instagram-@alloutmultisport
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Oct 10, 18 19:54
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Re: Bob Babbitt Andrew Messick [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I think we are off topic here but keep in mind that IRONMAN isn't necessarily profitable.
3.2.0
Wanda overpaid dearly for this sinking ship; Providence Equities paid $85M and seven years later Wanda paid $650M for it. And last year they adsorbed Competitor Group/ Rock 'n' Roll which was a mercy purchase (debt relief buyout).
And also keep in mind that it wasn't long ago that Competitor Group cut their entire Pro prize field and purses only to back pedal and offer travel compensation once they got hammered by a PR nightmare.
WTC/Wanda/IM only cares about collecting your money to make up for the stupid price the Chinese paid for them. So giving money out to Pros is the least of their concerns. And don;t think Amazon is paying much for this one and done title partnership that will deliver them no sales of their crap protein.
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Re: Bob Babbitt Andrew Messick [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I'm unsure how you could Unionize an individual athlete sport where the athletes have to go in front of sponsorhip boards and sell themselves. Prize money is nothing unless you win the big one, you have to get sponsors to feed yourself. If you win the big one, that sponsorship is even greater for your bottom line.

Rugby Media Dude-earfulofdirt.com

Hooker training for the Sport of Scrum-Halves [Triathlon]
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Re: Bob Babbitt Andrew Messick [rudyvonberg] [ In reply to ]
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rudyvonberg wrote:
Going back in history, the Iron War, the legends of the sport, past and present, contribute enormously to Ironman's popularity and awareness in the world which is huge for their business.

I'm not sure your average AGer wandering around with an Mdot tattoo on their calf even knows who Dave Scott or Mark Allen are; they just want the bragging rights and that tattoo for their social media.

____________________________________________
"Nobody wants to be themselves anymore. Internet, social media, goddamn talent shows for a**holes… Everybody wants to be somebody else. Nobody is happy just to look at themselves in the mirror, see themselves"
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Re: Bob Babbitt Andrew Messick [laughable] [ In reply to ]
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laughable wrote:
I think we are off topic here but keep in mind that IRONMAN isn't necessarily profitable.
3.2.0
Wanda overpaid dearly for this sinking ship; Providence Equities paid $85M and seven years later Wanda paid $650M for it. And last year they adsorbed Competitor Group/ Rock 'n' Roll which was a mercy purchase (debt relief buyout).
And also keep in mind that it wasn't long ago that Competitor Group cut their entire Pro prize field and purses only to back pedal and offer travel compensation once they got hammered by a PR nightmare.
WTC/Wanda/IM only cares about collecting your money to make up for the stupid price the Chinese paid for them. So giving money out to Pros is the least of their concerns. And don;t think Amazon is paying much for this one and done title partnership that will deliver them no sales of their crap protein.

What is the average lifespan of sponsors as the title sponsor in Kona now? What about course sponsors?

In the last 10 years we've had Ford, Amazon, GoPro, IcyHot, wasn't wheaties one for a year?
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Re: Bob Babbitt Andrew Messick [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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No you couldn't, that's why I used "" around "athletic union strike" because in tri there is no union whereas in the major money sports there are, and when you break union lines you honestly would have hell to pay (you are essentially black marked).


Sports with unions only have unions because both sides are needed. NFL and their media partners needs the players or there is no product. Same for MLB same for hockey, etc etc....and there is huge incentive for an union- media money. That's the only reason why any sport makes money- media rights.

So in that aspect, especially in LC racing- the pros have "no hand". They are needed to a small degree but they are also only needed to a small degree, so they are dispensable in terms of giving them "shit" pay.


Now I think there can be a market for ITU/DL style media broadcasts. I think there could be a French Grand Prix style in the U.S. if the sport continues to grow. The only drawback I see is that ITU triathlon is far too international and thus traveling back and forth from the U.S. to Europe 4 times or 5 times in a summer is going to be hell on the athlete and create bad product (But if the product really did get media backing, they would likely have more incentive to stay in U.S. and race the U.S. series even more than the WTS events....could do just enough to keep strong points standings). I sat there and watched MLT this past weekend and I spoke with 2 very highly international elite coaches who think MLT is good for atleast 5 years to showcase their product. In just the 1 year from May of 2017 to Oct 2018, I've seen a tremendous growth in the racing and the caliber of athlete. So that's the *only* avenue I ever see in making it in triathlon. And with sports being 24/7 these days, content is always on the docket, so new channels like ESPN + could be a great media partner for something like that.

-USAT L2 coach, M.S. Exercise Physiology
http://www.aomultisport.com
instagram-@alloutmultisport
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Oct 11, 18 8:26
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Re: Bob Babbitt Andrew Messick [Jorgan] [ In reply to ]
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Jorgan wrote:
rudyvonberg wrote:
Going back in history, the Iron War, the legends of the sport, past and present, contribute enormously to Ironman's popularity and awareness in the world which is huge for their business.


I'm not sure your average AGer wandering around with an Mdot tattoo on their calf even knows who Dave Scott or Mark Allen are; they just want the bragging rights and that tattoo for their social media.

I would disagree with this. I think those two are very well known and recognizable to anyone doing IM and emulate the spirit of why they originally signed up (the tattoo comes later). I would think the average AGer would not know/cares who Bob Babbitt is or this topic at hand about prizes, or what pro races what event.
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Re: Bob Babbitt Andrew Messick [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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There are unions in that instance because the athlete's involved are employed by the clubs through contracts and collectively bargained rights.

There are no unions in triathlon because there are no employers. Everyone is an independent contractor. This distinction matters.

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Re: Bob Babbitt Andrew Messick [rrheisler] [ In reply to ]
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Sure and the unions have power. WTC could "employee" the pros and it wouldn't matter. Well it would matter in that they could then unionize and go after "working conditions" but then that wouldn't affect their pay. So because there is no real money being changed hands, etc there isn't much need for it from either side. WTC has no incentive to employee the pros, the pros have no real "bargaining" chips.

ETA: But this is missing the point, because whether it's an union strike or the tri pros independently agree to "strike", those that go on strike don't always see the direct benefits of said strike. Some may, but what if this is your last year likely? Do you do it for the "betterment" of the pros, when no one before you acted that way on your behalf?

-USAT L2 coach, M.S. Exercise Physiology
http://www.aomultisport.com
instagram-@alloutmultisport
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Oct 11, 18 8:46
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Re: Bob Babbitt Andrew Messick [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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If you're a professional triathlete, you don't want WTC to be your employer. It means they dictate your race schedule, limit potential sponsorships, etc. As you mention, you might then be able to negotiate some other terms under collective bargaining, but the bad outweighs the good.

You need something else beyond "I'm fast, please give me dollars." And to the person above - I would bet dollars to doughnuts that if Mark Allen were to walk around the expo at IMLou this weekend that he might get recognized fewer than 10 times. To most individual athletes, the race that matters is their own. There's ways to market professionals well beyond just the results because results, on their own, fade unless you leave a massive legacy behind. There's better / deeper stories that will resonate with people and generate greater interest. (E.g., a massive boon to triathlon would be a Lionel win on the men's side, or one of the mom's winning on the women's side.)

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Re: Bob Babbitt Andrew Messick [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Super League seems interesting, Major League Triathlon also...there was an event in Tempe but I was in Waco that weekend so I have no idea what kind of crowds it drew. But I'm unsure you could sell tickets at a high price for a triathlon.

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Hooker training for the Sport of Scrum-Halves [Triathlon]
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