Blood Chemistry and Lactate (Lionel Lactate Testing)

Feb 16, 20 12:33

Post #1 of 30 (4704 views)

I am interested in how to optimize the blood & body response to training and racing. This latest #nolimits Lionel video is right on that subject, but would like to understand more.

I started taking ASA daily dose (2x per day) and it's helped a lot with a number issues.
I can get going with minimal warmup and have a better top-end. I believe this is due to lower blood viscosity
Muscle recovery/healing long-standing injury is improved. And how I process oils and fats is better too.
I am also taking Vitamin D and some glutamine, but meat seems to have same effect.

I had a big time problem racing over 2 hours, which feels is from lactic acid. I think Lionel might have the same problem, but that's over the full IM distance :).

I have a hunch that the addition of ASA (an acid) will improve my lactic situation, due to improved clearing from the lower blood viscosity.
What else can I do in terms of training to help with lactic acid? I did "sprint" sports for basically my entire life and then ~6 years ago started work on triathlon. I have not gone past olympic distance, absolutely no point!

PS: Recent track interval set 6x400 start HR 80, peak 175 bpm
Rest/easy about 1 min between laps.

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Re: Blood Chemistry and Lactate (Lionel Lactate Testing) [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]

Feb 16, 20 13:00

Post #2 of 30 (4671 views)

I am actually really interested to understand if someone is knowledgeable on this because I still have no idea what the heck was going on. Also how you would use it in training. I do know david plugged all those numbers into a software that all of those cycling teams use. Someone who is smart fill us in.

Here is the video. (Its boring I suggest you don't watch. haha but you can skip to the end and watch the laster interval.)

Re: Blood Chemistry and Lactate (Lionel Lactate Testing) [talbotcox] [ In reply to ]

Feb 16, 20 13:17

Post #3 of 30 (4627 views)

Does anyone have a link to numbers and a chart? I skimmed it and saw 6mmol at 500 watts....that is pretty low.

Maurice

Re: Blood Chemistry and Lactate (Lionel Lactate Testing) [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]

Feb 16, 20 16:35

Post #4 of 30 (4474 views)

SharkFM wrote:

I started taking ASA daily dose (2x per day) and it's helped a lot with a number issues.
I can get going with minimal warmup and have a better top-end. I believe this is due to lower blood viscosity
Muscle recovery/healing long-standing injury is improved. And how I process oils and fats is better too.
I am also taking Vitamin D and some glutamine, but meat seems to have same effect.

I had a big time problem racing over 2 hours, which feels is from lactic acid. I think Lionel might have the same problem, but that's over the full IM distance :).

I have a hunch that the addition of ASA (an acid) will improve my lactic situation, due to improved clearing from the lower blood viscosity.
What else can I do in terms of training to help with lactic acid? I did "sprint" sports for basically my entire life and then ~6 years ago started work on triathlon. I have not gone past olympic distance, absolutely no point!

Aspirin does not change blood viscosity.
It acts as an anti-thrombotic by blocking an enzyme that activates platelets.

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Re: Blood Chemistry and Lactate (Lionel Lactate Testing) [talbotcox] [ In reply to ]

Feb 16, 20 20:34

Post #5 of 30 (4317 views)

So, is he plugging the data into INSCYD? Tilsbury-Davis explains things in a much more complicated than they need to be. I found that protocol strange.

Re: Blood Chemistry and Lactate (Lionel Lactate Testing) [lyla] [ In reply to ]

Feb 17, 20 1:49

Post #6 of 30 (4187 views)

Protocol was ‘as per guidelines’ so perhaps you are confusing it with a ramp test which is an entirely different thing.

As for explanation..... some of us work in the shadows and some folks are utterly at ease in front of a camera. Just sayin’

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com

Re: Blood Chemistry and Lactate (Lionel Lactate Testing) [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]

Feb 17, 20 1:54

Post #7 of 30 (4180 views)

Some folks show a lot in their blood others not so much. Just inter individual differences. As a counterpoint I’ve measured another pro after all out 3mins topping out at 17+ mmol.

David

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com

Re: Blood Chemistry and Lactate (Lionel Lactate Testing) [tilburs] [ In reply to ]

Feb 17, 20 3:13

Post #8 of 30 (4115 views)

I'm guessing you're more of an in the shadows guy.. I'd probably turn into a statue of someone pointed a camera at me. Anyway thanks for allowing Talbot to record and publish your work. This is all extremely interesting and Talbot is making it really accessable. Keep up the good work and I'm sorry I hijacked this thread because o have no valuable input for OP

Re: Blood Chemistry and Lactate (Lionel Lactate Testing) [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]

Feb 17, 20 7:13

Post #9 of 30 (3973 views)

I was more curious about Lionel's heartrate. Even with 510W for 3 minutes, he never goes above 150bpm. Is it just that his aerobic system is more trained as compared to his leg strength? The guy seems like a fat-burning machine!

- Jordan

My Strava

Re: Blood Chemistry and Lactate (Lionel Lactate Testing) [talbotcox] [ In reply to ]

Feb 17, 20 7:42

Post #10 of 30 (3937 views)

Talbot - what was the software? INSYCD? Curious if it’s the same my coach uses.

Last edited by: sfjab: Feb 17, 20 7:44

Re: Blood Chemistry and Lactate (Lionel Lactate Testing) [sfjab] [ In reply to ]

Feb 17, 20 7:46

Post #11 of 30 (3932 views)

It is.

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com

Re: Blood Chemistry and Lactate (Lionel Lactate Testing) [talbotcox] [ In reply to ]

Feb 17, 20 8:46

Post #12 of 30 (3894 views)

Fascinating video, watched the entire thing. The numbers Lionel puts out is INSANE!!! 550W for 3 minutes, YIKES!!! I have done these tests in the past, but It was 3 minutes, up the wattage, 3 minutes, up the wattage, and so on until I hit technical failure. This is a very interesting protocol but I think DTD does a good job of explaining what he is trying to capture with these tests.
Thank you Talbot and DTD for the video.

Re: Blood Chemistry and Lactate (Lionel Lactate Testing) [CementBottle] [ In reply to ]

Feb 17, 20 10:25

Post #13 of 30 (3811 views)

CementBottle wrote:

Fascinating video, watched the entire thing. The numbers Lionel puts out is INSANE!!! 550W for 3 minutes, YIKES!!! I have done these tests in the past, but It was 3 minutes, up the wattage, 3 minutes, up the wattage, and so on until I hit technical failure. This is a very interesting protocol but I think DTD does a good job of explaining what he is trying to capture with these tests.
Thank you Talbot and DTD for the video.

It is a great "open source" video and NOT boring, I wouldn't short-circuit yourself there!

Lionel is kicking up some megawatts and that "combustion" produces byproduct ie lactate. It could be that the lactate hasn't been transported to the measurement site and somehow held back in tissues. Which would be a problem?

This ties into my questions about blood chemistry. Now according to a quick google ASA does lower blood viscosity, perhaps dependent on measurement (sheer) and flow.
ASA certainly changes circulation in a different way, and has different effects than to Ibuprofen. Ibuprofen might lower viscosity in a more general way, does little for fats/oils and also does other things I don't necessarily like.

Acids are so interesting on how they affect the body in such different ways.

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Re: Blood Chemistry and Lactate (Lionel Lactate Testing) [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]

Feb 17, 20 12:37

Post #14 of 30 (3712 views)

Thanks for sharing DTD and good luck with this process!

Re: Blood Chemistry and Lactate (Lionel Lactate Testing) [turningscrews] [ In reply to ]

Feb 17, 20 12:52

Post #15 of 30 (3691 views)

Thank you.

David

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com

Re: Blood Chemistry and Lactate (Lionel Lactate Testing) [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]

Feb 17, 20 13:26

Post #16 of 30 (3660 views)

For DTD

With a max heart rate so low, is LS missing out on an entire higher level of effort? How much stronger could he be if his max heart rate was 190? Couldn't he theoretically be pushing 25% higher numbers? What physiological blockage stops his heart from reaching a higher level? I'm 55 and 1/10th the athlete but I can still push my max to 180+ Is having a low max number actually more common than we know?

thanks ! .

Re: Blood Chemistry and Lactate (Lionel Lactate Testing) [Cottagescape] [ In reply to ]

Feb 17, 20 13:46

Post #17 of 30 (3630 views)

Low max heart rates in elite endurance athletes is not uncommon. It is a reflection of the huge stroke volume their heart has per beat. So his isn’t ‘missing’ anything.

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com

Re: Blood Chemistry and Lactate (Lionel Lactate Testing) [tilburs] [ In reply to ]

Feb 17, 20 14:55

Post #18 of 30 (3564 views)

tilburs wrote:

Protocol was ‘as per guidelines’ so perhaps you are confusing it with a ramp test which is an entirely different thing.

As for explanation..... some of us work in the shadows and some folks are utterly at ease in front of a camera. Just sayin’

Is there a reason to be doing this test so often? I I was under the impression that doing these tests months apart would show you the effect of training and if your program is working or if you need to make adjustments.what does testing so close together in quick succession do other than make for good TV

Last edited by: Fishbum: Feb 17, 20 15:19

Re: Blood Chemistry and Lactate (Lionel Lactate Testing) [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]

Feb 17, 20 16:13

Post #19 of 30 (3522 views)

Fishbum wrote:

tilburs wrote:

Protocol was ‘as per guidelines’ so perhaps you are confusing it with a ramp test which is an entirely different thing.

As for explanation..... some of us work in the shadows and some folks are utterly at ease in front of a camera. Just sayin’

Is there a reason to be doing this test so often? I I was under the impression that doing these tests months apart would show you the effect of training and if your program is working or if you need to make adjustments.what does testing so close together in quick succession do other than make for good TV

Each effort in the video had a specific purpose. I assume the first couple were to find the threshold point where there is a high build up of lactate.
The latter ones, where he went 6min, then 3 min at the same watts. DTD said something about confirming the numbers and seeing how close to half the 3min effort was vs the 6min.

And another question for DTD. Is this protocol something you came up with or is there some kind of write up on it? I'd love to read more about it and get a bigger explanations on the whys and hows of what the test is trying to accomplish

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Last edited by: Ryanppax: Feb 17, 20 16:14

Re: Blood Chemistry and Lactate (Lionel Lactate Testing) [tilburs] [ In reply to ]

Feb 17, 20 16:31

Post #20 of 30 (3502 views)

tilburs wrote:

Low max heart rates in elite endurance athletes is not uncommon. It is a reflection of the huge stroke volume their heart has per beat. So his isn’t ‘missing’ anything.

This is my understanding too - I had my MHR tested as 166pbpm (que joke about 'large organs'), the bpm doesn't describe the total volume of blood pumped.

Lionel's 95% of his MHR has the same physiological effect as your or my 95% of MHR, its just a lower frequency.

Re: Blood Chemistry and Lactate (Lionel Lactate Testing) [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]

Feb 18, 20 0:13

Post #21 of 30 (3337 views)

Fishbum wrote:

tilburs wrote:

Protocol was ‘as per guidelines’ so perhaps you are confusing it with a ramp test which is an entirely different thing.

As for explanation..... some of us work in the shadows and some folks are utterly at ease in front of a camera. Just sayin’

Is there a reason to be doing this test so often? I I was under the impression that doing these tests months apart would show you the effect of training and if your program is working or if you need to make adjustments.what does testing so close together in quick succession do other than make for good TV

That´s what we´ll do, test months apart. The other lactate sampling was simply for context. They were not a form of test.

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com

Re: Blood Chemistry and Lactate (Lionel Lactate Testing) [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Feb 18, 20 0:14

Post #22 of 30 (3337 views)

Ryanppax wrote:

Fishbum wrote:

tilburs wrote:

Protocol was ‘as per guidelines’ so perhaps you are confusing it with a ramp test which is an entirely different thing.

As for explanation..... some of us work in the shadows and some folks are utterly at ease in front of a camera. Just sayin’

Is there a reason to be doing this test so often? I I was under the impression that doing these tests months apart would show you the effect of training and if your program is working or if you need to make adjustments.what does testing so close together in quick succession do other than make for good TV

Each effort in the video had a specific purpose. I assume the first couple were to find the threshold point where there is a high build up of lactate.
The latter ones, where he went 6min, then 3 min at the same watts. DTD said something about confirming the numbers and seeing how close to half the 3min effort was vs the 6min.

And another question for DTD. Is this protocol something you came up with or is there some kind of write up on it? I'd love to read more about it and get a bigger explanations on the whys and hows of what the test is trying to accomplish

Not my protocol. I´d suggest listening to various podcast interviews with Sebastian Weber and reading about VlaMax.

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com

Re: Blood Chemistry and Lactate (Lionel Lactate Testing) [tilburs] [ In reply to ]

Feb 18, 20 2:35

Post #23 of 30 (3282 views)

He was interviewed on Fitter Radio podcast episode 297.
https://podcasts.apple.com/...1930?i=1000461626111

Re: Blood Chemistry and Lactate (Lionel Lactate Testing) [tilburs] [ In reply to ]

Feb 18, 20 2:48

Post #24 of 30 (3272 views)

Was the goal to pace that last 3’ interval as evenly as possible or just go for it? Seems like watts dropped from 550 to upper 400’s. Would starting around 520 had a better result?

I’m also amazed at the HR - 147 at the end of an all out 3’!! I’d be in the upper 170s at around 100 watts less!

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Re: Blood Chemistry and Lactate (Lionel Lactate Testing) [natethomas] [ In reply to ]

Feb 18, 20 2:54

Post #25 of 30 (3265 views)

That last 3mins is "empty the tank" so give all you got from the get go.

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com

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