Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Bike fitting: Is 'shin angle' or how far forward the knee goes, an issue?
Quote | Reply
I keep on seeing people telling other people on reddit (not a great place for fit advice), say that peoples knees are too far forward at the fore part of their pedal stroke. I often correct people but honestly I'm not sure if there are actually general guidelines for this or no. At first I figured a vertical shin angle would make sense as that way you're stomping straight down through the leg, but then I realized you're still stomping straight through if your knee is forward, just between different times on the clock.

Dan/pro fitters out there, I haven't seen much about this online. Does it matter?

Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors
Quote Reply
Re: Bike fitting: Is 'shin angle' or how far forward the knee goes, an issue? [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
As I age, I slowly increased my saddle to BB distance so I don't make knee pain any worse.
Quote Reply
Re: Bike fitting: Is 'shin angle' or how far forward the knee goes, an issue? [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fore and aft absolutely does not matter for the knees as long as total saddle height remains the same (and this is important, as sliding the saddle fore/aft changes saddle height "inadvertently"). This includes knee health and power, efficiency, etc.

However, fore and aft (of the saddle) does matter quite a bit for hip angle.

The fore-aft thing regarding the knees had to to with KOPS (knee over pedal spindle) which was a road bike fitting tradition, but one with zero evidence backing it up ...

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook

--
Last edited by: DarkSpeedWorks: Apr 12, 20 9:42
Quote Reply
Re: Bike fitting: Is 'shin angle' or how far forward the knee goes, an issue? [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I’ve never seen a fitting recommendation on it, but speaking anecdotally I have found that pedaling with my heel too high (plantar flexion) results in pressure on my kneecap on the downstroke. This is independent of saddle height (since foot angle will impact effective saddle height).

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)
Quote Reply
Re: Bike fitting: Is 'shin angle' or how far forward the knee goes, an issue? [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
KOPS came about because it tended to provide a balanced application of force for a road position. If you move further forward and still use your most effective cycling muscles (the glutes and hamstrings) then power will tend to be applied later in the stroke, forcing you forward (ie off the front of the saddle). To avoid this you may apply more forward force at the top of the stroke when your knee is at closed angle, resulting in knee issues (maybe). Raising the saddle can help, but is not ideal for long efforts, or aero drag.

On the TT bike you have to make compromises regarding power production, aero, and "balance". Most people have found that moving forward of KOPS is optimal (fastest). Balance and power production are both sacrificed to a degree compared to the road position, but the aero gains from a flatter torso more than compensate. If you adhere to KOPS then your hip angle is more closed and power suffers even more.
Quote Reply
Re: Bike fitting: Is 'shin angle' or how far forward the knee goes, an issue? [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think what you're really addressing here is total fore/aft position which will change the angle of the lower shank of the leg. Is there such a thing as too far forward or too far back in aero? The answer, of course, is yes, but as with all things fit it depends on the athlete and what works best for him/her.

One of the most common issues we see come through the studio for people riding in aero is they constantly do the "typewriter" on their saddle: inch forward to the front of the saddle while pedaling, and scoot back on to the saddle right before falling off the front. Inch forward, scoot back, inch forward, scoot back. You get the picture. For these athletes, the most common cause for this that we see is they're placed too far forward on their bike. I call it tipping you over the cliff. Once you get too far forward, you'll continue to move, or fall, forward until you come off the saddle, or hold yourself right at the tip of the saddle usually resulting in discomfort both on the saddle and your shoulders/neck in the aero position.

People get too far forward both from bike fits and taking advice from those who don't know any better because the general consensus is you move forward to go lower. The further forward you go, the lower you can get in the aero position. It's advice you see given all the time on internet forums like this one, and, while yes, the aero position is accomplished by moving forward on the bike from a traditional road position, simply continuing to move forward to get lower in the aero position is misguided. There is definitely such a thing as too far forward.

Let's take a look at TO's fore/aft from when he came in and you can see the change in his shank angle due to the overall change in his fore/aft position...



Here you see his position in relation to the center of the bottom bracket. Before the fit he's riding right at the tip of his saddle with a darn near 90 degree effective angle at the center of his hip, and he would constantly be moving around on his saddle unable to find a point of balance where he could just sit consistently and ride. After the position change, he was much more balanced on the bike, his position was stabilized, his power output increased, and he was much more comfortable. You can see the other obvious changes the new position created, but to address your question you can identify how the shank angle has changed with the overall change in his fore/aft position. It's not what we measure during a fit to determine proper fore/aft position but, of course, it effected. Hope that makes sense to you.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
Quote Reply
Re: Bike fitting: Is 'shin angle' or how far forward the knee goes, an issue? [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I love that term... the typewriter! How do you fix it? Move saddle back and down?

Andrew
Quote Reply