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Bike Upgrade, Change Size?
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I'm going to be upgrading my bike from Dimond Brilliant to Marquise and given I'm now a few years down the road from the original purchase and racing longer distances does it make sense to look into a larger fame for any reason? Or if it aint broke dont fix it?

I'm currently on a size small with a PD Aeria cockpit and not having any issues. I'm now pretty much 70.3 or 140.6 only and my current bike/fit is comfortable, allows me to turn out quality times and run well off the bike. I'm asking my fitter and Dimond these same questions so any thoughts are helpful for me to evaluate and know what I need to consider or be aware of down the road trade-off's I'm making.

I'm going to be using a Vision Metron TFA cockpit on the new bike, I'd imagine its 'easier' to start small and then adjust a size 'larger' within the cockpit than the other way around. But I'm really not into my fit other than, it works, i'm happy, dont mess with it.... thus I'm asking people who might know better and have better information.

I've attached the Dimond sizing chart, my 'optimized' fit at my last Retul fitting, images from the fit and a race image if that helps. Yes, I need to get my head out of the wind.

I'm not looking at any other bikes and I get an amazing deal on the Vision bar so financially it makes very, very little sense to look elsewhere

Thanks in advance!

Edit: Fit Video here https://vimeo.com/459704141

________________________________________________________
Taylor Rogers

2024: IM Hamburg
Last edited by: xcrogers: Sep 19, 20 8:18
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Re: Bike Upgrade, Change Size? [xcrogers] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not a fitter but like many have more than a passing interest at looking at other peoples fits, so this is just my personal opinion!

There is a difference between the studio photo and the race photo in where your elbows rest on the pads, with them being further forwards in the race picture. This to me would indicate that you naturally prefer this extra reach for comfort. It looks like a solid fit and as you say if it's not broke don't fix it. This extra reach also helps get your head a bit lower, imagining where your helmet would be in the studio picture. I think you could develop to go a bit further forwards and maybe 1-2cm lower, and add some decent upwards tilt which would help lower your head, but you might need to look at another helmet to ease looking up.

If you go a size larger I think you might struggle to achieve this with the metron TFA as it has quite a high minimum stack height compared to the PD.

I reckon you are probably a similar height to me and are a classic top end of one size bottom of another, but committing to the vision bar likely limits your choice of frame size to the small.
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Re: Bike Upgrade, Change Size? [xcrogers] [ In reply to ]
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If that were my fit I'd size up.
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Re: Bike Upgrade, Change Size? [xcrogers] [ In reply to ]
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I can’t tell from the photos how much additional adjustment you could get in terms of stem length and saddle setback, but everything I would suggest to make you faster would require a longer position. If you are close to maxed out on stem length and saddle setback, and your saddle nose to crank spindle is good for you now, I would definitely consider the larger frame. I would guess that you could me much faster and more comfortable by bringing the hand up and head down.

No offense to your current fitter, but I bet Jim at ERO would have a field day with your current position and new bike day is a perfect opportunity for improvement. I wouldn’t spend a nickel until you had a more aero position dialed in. There are a bucket load of free watts being left on the table.
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Re: Bike Upgrade, Change Size? [xcrogers] [ In reply to ]
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If you post a video of you riding on a trainer, there are a bunch of people who could offer advice on how to be in a better position.
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Re: Bike Upgrade, Change Size? [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for all the feedback thus far.

Here is a link to the video of my most recent fit: https://vimeo.com/459704141

________________________________________________________
Taylor Rogers

2024: IM Hamburg
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Re: Bike Upgrade, Change Size? [xcrogers] [ In reply to ]
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Drop the saddle 15 mm, drop the cockpit 10 mm, move the pads and extensions forward 30-40 mm. And then post another video.

Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)
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Re: Bike Upgrade, Change Size? [trentnix] [ In reply to ]
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I’ll need to cut down my seat post as I’m bottomed out right now so I’ll do that tomorrow in my shop and get the bike set up and post some video.

Your suggestions imply a larger frame isn’t the right direction?

Thanks!

________________________________________________________
Taylor Rogers

2024: IM Hamburg
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Re: Bike Upgrade, Change Size? [xcrogers] [ In reply to ]
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Frames grow in two dimensions, so it's tricky. I wish this bike was a bit longer, and I don't want it to get any taller.

Let's first get you in a good position on this bike, then you can take those measurements and shop with confidence.

Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)
Last edited by: trentnix: Sep 20, 20 11:12
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Re: Bike Upgrade, Change Size? [trentnix] [ In reply to ]
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So its great you asked me to do this, found out my compression plug had failed as I was unpacking my bike, so good to know that before a race-day set up.

However, I dont think I can make all the modifications you're suggesting:

- seat drop - Can do, will cut down in shop
- drop entire cockpit - can do, I have space to drop the whole thing (FYI would be essentially slamming it to the frame, see picture)
- move pads and extensions forward - cant do, I could only move the extensions forward 20mm and the pads are already as far forward as possible. Could be resolved with new/aftermarket pads?

I can make the couple modifcations possible but figured I should at least make you aware of the limitations i'm at with my current set-up.

Thanks!

________________________________________________________
Taylor Rogers

2024: IM Hamburg
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Re: Bike Upgrade, Change Size? [xcrogers] [ In reply to ]
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Move the extensions forward 20 mm and make the other changes. Then we'll take a look.

We may be able to pull the saddle aft a bit, but you may need to find a cheap, longer -17 stem if that doesn't do the trick.

Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)
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Re: Bike Upgrade, Change Size? [xcrogers] [ In reply to ]
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Longer stem.
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Re: Bike Upgrade, Change Size? [trentnix] [ In reply to ]
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Updated video here: https://vimeo.com/460308177

as suggested:
dropped the entire front end 10mm
moved extensions out to max (about 15-20mm)
dropped seat 15mm

My first impression of this was that I felt my left leg/kneed kicking out to the left and my right leg/knee kicking out to the left. I didnt feel like I was using the entire pedal stroke. Not sure if thats a reasonable 'feel' or thats better/how it should be but thought I'd pass along.

Thanks again for thoughts/feedback!

________________________________________________________
Taylor Rogers

2024: IM Hamburg
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Re: Bike Upgrade, Change Size? [xcrogers] [ In reply to ]
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That's better.

Bring the left cleat medially as far as it will go (without affecting whatever the fore-aft is) and see if that helps with the left knee. I'd have to see a front view and a rear-view to determine what's going on with the things happening in the transverse plane.

Angle the pads/extensions up a few degrees and also see if you can make another video where you push your chest forward (toward the floor) a bit, relax, and look forward. When you're staring at the floor you arc your back and roll your pelvis the wrong way.

Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)
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Re: Bike Upgrade, Change Size? [trentnix] [ In reply to ]
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By angle the pads/extensions do you mean rotate the entire cockpit at the stem? Or do you mean angle up with with shims below the pads/extensions? Obvously easier/quicker to rotate the cockpit but I could model and 3D print specific some shims if thats better....

Thanks, this is all great (and a great learning curve), really appreciated! I'll give that stuff a try tomorrow evening and re-shoot a side/front video. A whole new aspect of triathlon for me to get lost in, wife will be overjoyed.

In terms of the bike sizing or updated cockpit does any of the updated information/video you've seen give a steer towards if I should remain at the current (small) size frame or move to a medium?

________________________________________________________
Taylor Rogers

2024: IM Hamburg
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Re: Bike Upgrade, Change Size? [xcrogers] [ In reply to ]
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Rotate at the stem. Once again, bike size is more complicated. Let’s get this right first.

Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)
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Re: Bike Upgrade, Change Size? [trentnix] [ In reply to ]
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Made the modifications on moving the cleat position (left leg felt better/straighter) and angled up the bars about 5 degrees.

Run 1: https://vimeo.com/460705682

Run 2 (focused a bit on your thought about chest positioning, while likely not successful immediately I could see how that would improve my neck/back/hips position): https://vimeo.com/460706412

Thanks for any additional feedback... also having some fun with 3d printing angled shims now....

________________________________________________________
Taylor Rogers

2024: IM Hamburg
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Re: Bike Upgrade, Change Size? [xcrogers] [ In reply to ]
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Pull the saddle back about 5 mm. Really wish that stem was 10 or 20 mm longer.

On the angled shims, I wouldn't want to trust me spinal integrity to something I 3d printed. And I don't think they really buy you anything.

Can you drop the cockpit any more? I'd like it to come down another 5-10 mm.

Also, get rid of those S-bends and get some ski bends or some of the 51 Speedshop extensions. I think that would help.

Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)
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Re: Bike Upgrade, Change Size? [trentnix] [ In reply to ]
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Looks like I could pull the seat back 5-10mm before I'm at the end of the rails, I could drop the cockpit 10mm (max) before the stem is 100% slammed. I'll give those a go tomorrow evening.

bars are something I could look at on their own. Is that for hand position alone or another reason?

at the cost of nice extensions (ie speedshop 51) I'm already well into the overall costs for the Metron TFA system which seems to have greater overall flexibility (ie angle) as well ships with S bend extensions (offering 245-385 extension adjustment vs my current extensions at 200-300). Though the new TFE extensions look sweet... I could purchase without the integrated stem (stock 90mm stem length) for a longer stem though the pads have far greater range than my current setup and could account for that stem length plus the entension you are suggeting (or so the fit guides indicate).

In terms of angle of the cockpit, I'd agree that if the change I've made is enough then I dont 'need' to print things. I'm using the model shop at my office for fun so I can controll the quality to a very high level. We also have the carbon/nylon filament (same stuff a number of well known shops that sell angled shims use). So its really more of idle fun with Rhino and printing things.

Thanks again for the thoughts, its been really helpful and informative.

________________________________________________________
Taylor Rogers

2024: IM Hamburg
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Re: Bike Upgrade, Change Size? [xcrogers] [ In reply to ]
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Then instead of pulling the saddle back, it's time to bit the bullet and get a longer stem (2 cm longer). Keep the bars at the same angle, move the saddle forward (instead of back) 1 cm, and raise the saddle just a few mm.

I don't know what the current Metrons look like. I just don't like S-bends and you look like you are torquing your wrist a bit to grab the ends of the extensions. Just looking for better hand position. You're close.

Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)
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Re: Bike Upgrade, Change Size? [trentnix] [ In reply to ]
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So a 120mm stem (Tri rig is 100), seams reasonable enough, I do a bit of research into options, trying to keep the front end as neat as possible.

In the second video, was I close/emulating what you were suggesting with regard to my chest position?


This is the FSA/Vision system in question: https://shop.visiontechusa.com/...ial-track/metron-tfa





TFE extensions (if I splurged)



________________________________________________________
Taylor Rogers

2024: IM Hamburg
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Re: Bike Upgrade, Change Size? [xcrogers] [ In reply to ]
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Why don't you just get the TriRig Alpha One bar?
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Re: Bike Upgrade, Change Size? [xcrogers] [ In reply to ]
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The TFAs look fine.

If you got a new bike that had a 20 mm longer reach, that would cover the stem change. But once again, we're not at the new bike part, we're trying to nail this position. It may end up saving you a lot of money and headache.

I recommend you change the stem on this bike - just get something cheap with a -17 pitch.

If you had a good fitter close with a fit bike, they'd be able to make these changes and dial you in after only a few moments. Those fit bikes are handy.

Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)
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Re: Bike Upgrade, Change Size? [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]
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The tririg system is great but I get what amounts to about a $400 savings delta on the vision system compared to tririg.

________________________________________________________
Taylor Rogers

2024: IM Hamburg
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Re: Bike Upgrade, Change Size? [trentnix] [ In reply to ]
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I have a fit lined up locally early next week and will be using the help you’ve given me here as primer for that session. we’ll start with fit numbers in this area but the session is me on a jig so one step ahead there!

I’ve also got some 1:1 time lined up with someone recommended by my coach for additional discussion, education and possible fit/kit changes. So this is all serving to help me understand what my fit wants to be, questions to ask and goals for the session and the take some numbers away for new kit.

I’ll start looking for a cheap 120mm -17 stem

Thanks!

________________________________________________________
Taylor Rogers

2024: IM Hamburg
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