The latter is a lot harder. That’s the only difference, unless your goal event involves a lot of 30’ climbs so steep you’ll be overgeared.

The reason coaches prescribe low cadence work is to target “muscular endurance.” “Endurance” is simply the ability to continue on for a long time, but that may mean doing so at a very low % of FTP. General endurance (or aerobic endurance) is all about the cardio-respiratory system shouldering most of the load.

While the IM bike leg is done at a low % of FTP, it still requires a good amount of muscular strength to keep that up over 180k. That is where muscular endurance comes in. You need the endurance to not just keep going, but to keep going strong without your muscles breaking down. I read somewhere that you never see someone slowing down in an Ironman because they are out of breath... they slow down because their muscles are breaking down. (Now that I think about it I think Friel said that in the newest Triathlete’s Training Bible)

As far as watts go... not all watts are created equal... 200w at 95 or 100 RPM is a whole lot different than 200w at 60RPM. The height cadence work switches to load more towards your heart and lungs whereas the lower cadence switches it to your muscles.

That’s just the start of the differences there. It’s also easier to focus on form and notice wavering knees at a lower cadence. Lower cadence helps strengthen connective tissue. Among other things. Obviously you want a faster, more efficient cadence in a race, but varrying cadence can help you adapt in more ways than one making the workout more productive in the same amount of time.

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-Nate
Triathlonpal.com
Flaer|Team Kiwami|Nuun Hydration|Honey Stinger
Twitter: @N8deck

Thanks for the reply, Nate.

I get your points, but I really don't buy into the "muscular endurance" concept. For me, endurance is endurance. Your muscles fatigue on long efforts not because you lack muscular strength, but because you lack aerobic capacity to keep supporting your muscles with enough oxygen.

Go curl some 40lb dumbbells and let me know if you crap out because your muscles fatigued or your lungs have out.

That’s actually not a horrible illustration.

I could go out there right now and complete a 200mi ride. No way I’d do it fast. No way I’d be able to run afterwards. But I have the aerobic endurance to get there if I go slow enough.

On the other hand, if I do some long intervals in the sweet spot range say, 3x 20mins, I will have combined my aerobic endurance with my ability to produce force and will have increased muscular endurance. My aerobic capacity probably hasn’t changed much. My FTP may have gotten a bump. But the big change is the ability to continue with the higher power ie. Muscular Endurance.

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-Nate
Triathlonpal.com
Flaer|Team Kiwami|Nuun Hydration|Honey Stinger
Twitter: @N8deck

I must be an outlier than because I have slowed down in each of my IMs ( during the run though) specifically because I was out of breath. I chalked up each experience as a direct result of simply not being in decent enough cardiovascular shape and specifically have concluded it was because I worked too hard on the bike.

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"There are two ways to slide easily through life- to believe everything and to doubt everything- both ways save us from thinking "- Korzbyski

Also... I re read this and I think you are confusing “muscular strength” with “muscular endurance” strength is the ability to generate force. Endurance is the ability to continue on for a long duration.

You may be able to squat a ton or sprint to a high power, but translating that to on the bike time trialing is what combines your endurance and your strength.

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-Nate
Triathlonpal.com
Flaer|Team Kiwami|Nuun Hydration|Honey Stinger
Twitter: @N8deck

Muscular endurance his a huge component to long course racing, you should buy into it. You don't need to buy into low cadence work, but muscular endurance is simply the combination of strength/force skills and aerobic endurance. Both are important and both are necessary. Not just for cycling, but for running and swimming too.

Yes, absolutely. I just meant that I like to think of endurance as a broader term, not divided into "sub-components".

But to ilustrate my point, and that goes back to my initial question, is that I feel that you don't need big gear training for muscular endurance improvements. You are definitely improving your muscular endurance if you do, say, 3x20 min @ 90% intervals at your race cadence. Will you enhance the training effect if you do the same intervals with the same power but with a lower cadence?

Thanks all for the inputs.

I follow Brett Sutton and this popped up on my facebook feed the other day and explains it pretty well. Remember your heart is a muscle too and higher cadence equals higher heart rate and wears it out rather than your legs and will end your run pretty quick. Ironman is all about finding the balance between body and cardiovascular.

http://trisutto.com/the-great-cadence-debate/

For big gear training there is to take care of tendons, joints and bones .. they all develop slower than muscles .. to start with a six month interval can hurt ..

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Yep, you’re right that those intervals (and similar) build muscular endurance, and as you get closer to race day and your training gets more specific then doing those in the cadence you plan to use on race day is the right move.

However, the low cadence drills, same as high cadence drills, are good to developing other aspects of fitness. I mentioned before the joint and tendon health. Transferring your strength from the gym to on the bike. Better utilizing glycogen. Resisting muscular fatigue.

These drills should really go best in the base phase when you are developing the basic abilities. (If you are familiar with Friel’s triangle of basic and advanced abilities) Low cadence falls in the force production category. High cadence would fall in the speed skills category.

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-Nate
Triathlonpal.com
Flaer|Team Kiwami|Nuun Hydration|Honey Stinger
Twitter: @N8deck

Are you saying that single leg drills will enhance my fitness? What is your definition of fitness?

Also, SL Drills help translate gym strength to "bike strength"?

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Inside The Big Ring: Podcast & Coaching

An old but good thread on "muscular endurance":

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=1194886

Sorry mate but you're quite simply wrong. If you don't buy it you are wrong and don't understand it.
Go read up on sport physiology.

To the guy who said they were out of breath, yes, you are a massive outlier.

i"ve done low cadence work in the past haven't noticed any benefits. Stopped doing them this year, just rode all intervals at my chosen cadence, haven't noticed any detriments.

I don't think low cadence work is any more beneficial than doing them at your chosen cadence.
I've read somewhere that if you can get out of your chair on 1 leg, you have enough strength to break the hr record.

Single leg drills are not about strength. They are about form. They are about smoothing out the pedal stroke so that you don’t have any dead spots. Those dead spots are hard to notice when pedaling with both legs as the opposite leg makes up the difference. Going to a single leg makes the dead spot glaringly obvious.

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-Nate
Triathlonpal.com
Flaer|Team Kiwami|Nuun Hydration|Honey Stinger
Twitter: @N8deck

This,

I think the OP should read the link posted via bill a few post up.

Maurice

No, vittorio (hope I got the attribution correct): fatigue during prolonged exercise has nothing to do with strength, but all about metabolism.

As for "muscular endurance", it's an oxymoron...if you are talking about exercise, then obviously the muscles are involved.

I'm well aware of what single legged drills do. You didn't answer my questions, so I ask them again.

1) "the low cadence drills, same as high cadence drills, are good to developing other aspects of fitness"... Can you explain this more? I think its important to understand ones definition of Fitness. Im confused on how low cadence drills can develop fitness. Would like for you to elaborate on this.


2) "Transferring your strength from the gym to on the bike. Better utilizing glycogen. Resisting muscular fatigue." Are you referencing the low cadence drills here? Low cadence drills help transfer gym strength to bike strength? Can you explain this more?

triathlonpal wrote:

Single leg drills are not about strength. They are about form. They are about smoothing out the pedal stroke so that you don’t have any dead spots. Those dead spots are hard to notice when pedaling with both legs as the opposite leg makes up the difference. Going to a single leg makes the dead spot glaringly obvious.

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Inside The Big Ring: Podcast & Coaching

Thanks for chiming in, Dr Coggan.

The first paragraph of your reply is exactly why I started to question the prescription of low cadence work to enhance "muscular endurance". In my view, people seem to believe that it is a better way to train your muscles to resist fatigue simply because the exercise is more "muscular" itself (turning a big gear).

I hear there is a great product on the market to help you with those dead spots. "Power" something-or-other, if I remember right. You should start a thread about it.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Maybe with a velo something? I hear crank length is all the rage....

Was that thread meant to REDUCE the confusion?!

Actually, what it did do was serve as a reminder for me that LT and MLSS are not the same thing even though many people still use them interchangeably.