No. You are overthinking the problem. You have all of the muscle and strength you need to run fast already. As a triathlete, you are already over-muscled relative to what the fastest runners are. Run strength is the result of run-specific training, not gym work.

Hm ok, hard to see myself as ’over muscled’ haha but I see what you mean. Perhaps be satisfied with being a little less lean, perhaps around 70, and hope the extra kgs are running muscle...

Dev has said on this forum a couple times that people drop swim/bike fitness by leaning out but mostly run faster. Suppose that is a function of what you are talking about

Upper body strength, once you get to a low baseline, doesn't help in running. Triathletes tend to carry more muscle up top from all the swimming, and that only slows you down when running. Then there's the issue of having the leg muscle in the wrong spot from riding a bike all the time too.

Once you're over a certain strength baseline, being as light as possible for your body is a plus for running. Once yo're over that strength baseline, more weight even when it's more muscle is bad. That's why you don't see any podium marathoners with an ounce of extra weight.

On my collegiate XC team, I was the "big guy" at 6 feet 2, 158 lbs. Most guys were around 5 feet 9-11, 135-145. You get lean by running a lot, and doing interval workouts. One sub 25 8k guy had trouble benching the bar, no joke...

I'm in similar situation with you, the weight/height and PRs as well.
Last year I wanted to get a guarantied entry for NYC Marathon and focused on halves for a while. My PR 1:22:29 I mostly attribute to increased number of tempo runs. I did one every week: 1mi warm-up, 6mi tempo, trying to hold <6:30, 1 mi cooldown.

The rest was pretty much the same as in tri training cycle: 1 intervals/hills session per week, 1 long run (up to 15 miles) and the rest easy or non-running.

I don't care how fast one is, that is pretty damn sad.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

 
Core will help you a bit. Prevents the side aches from weaker abs when breathing harder at race pace and for longer races than training mileage. Bench press will strengthen your arms which will minimize fatigue later in the race. Strive to max at your weight plus 10%. Then do repeat sets at 70%/80%/90% your max. No more than 3x week. Taper in last month to race date. Most other weights will define your body but do little to drop HM times. If you go shorter race distances, then you can do more weights for improved speed results.

What is your age? Definitely have the potential to go sub 1:20 if under 40 years old based on your KQ time. And quicker in a full marathon than 2:58 too. What type of run workouts are you doing? LSD? Intervals? Fartlek? And how many days a week with average KM's? Probably want to run daily. Work up to race distance for long run though make it steady pace well below race expectations. If you want to go fast, then race. Put in fartlek a couple of times a week or one interval with one fartlek. Lean more towards fartlek workouts, that's how you race. For intervals, 3-4 x 5K's, 15 x 1K's, 20 x 7.5K's. For variety mix these distance or do stair steps. Learn your pace feel from doing intervals on the track. Once that is done (you may already have it from the tri training), then do most intervals and all fartlek on the road or in parks/woods. Saves the legs and mind from redundancy.

Lastly, consider pulling out your bike a day or two to rest the run muscles and balance out the body. Same for swimming. Doing harder work on the bike or in the pool can build the lungs while protecting the run muscles from continual fatigue too. This approach is not a substitute but a supplement tactic.

Follow similar build, peak, taper, and race routines as you did for your tri's.


https://www.palmtreesahead.com/tactical-learning
https://www.palmtreesahead.com/today-s-tip-tomorrow-s-workout

On the other end there is a local runner here 1:11 half at 6'0" 175lb and does CrossFit (muscular build). I think it's the most stupid thing to tell an already lean person to cut muscle. I would know, as I am injured and slower

This x10
Tempo runs are the key to 1/2 marathon success

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Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

Same for a cyclist. For the UCI hour record, even a sedentary person has all the muscles they need. It's been quoted somewhere for that it is the equivalent of standing to rise from bed. Just doing it over and over and over at a given pace.

I'd assume the same for running.

Don't buy into the crossfit nonsense with endurance sport.

I wasn't selling CrossFit as the reason for his success. He has been a runner before that, just now an all around stronger runner now. A female XC teammate of mine is also muscular, (Olympic weightlifting) just got OTQ . It's like boxing. Never judge a book by it's cover.

Sounds like a smart build, well done! But you did no auxilary strength work, not even plyo, box jumps etc.?

I did some activities for injury prevention. Short 15 min plyometrics like lunges and leg lifts after every workout. 1-2 yoga sessions per week. But I was doing the same thing for years before.

So whatever you’ve been doing for a sub-3 marathon, nothing more specific is required in my opinion.

Thanks for all replies, I get the image of not being able to bench the bar...farewell arms

Djmsbr: you sound the most positive to some strength work? Is that based on personal experience or people you coached or other type of knowledge?

I am nearing 50 so not sure the free-ticket of being sub 40 is valid.

I had a really long build and managed to stay injury free, doing weekend long runs around 30-38 k for maybe 14-15 straight weeks. Base mileage around 100km, increasing towards final big week of 150km. Usually three quality workouts per week, some intervals, hills, tempo/threshold etc.. My bread and butter has been the fast finish long run, so most long runs I ended with 5-10-15-20 k at race pace. Also added short 30sec speed pickups on many ’volume’ runs.

Below is what I ran for the peak week, idea was to build fatigue and run final long run on tired legs.
For the race, and this is of course easy to say, felt I had more in the tank fitness wise. HR stayed flat until 35 when legs started hurting a lot. Never happened on any run before, so I blame my 2 year old Asics racing flats. I have tanked from fatigue in other races but here no shortness of breath or anything. Stuttered like a zombie final kms.

For the half plan was to reduce mileage and do more quality, but also add strength. But perhaps I have to give it another look. Also, I have bever done fartlek runs, will have to try those! After building speed racing halfs for a year or so, I hope to run marathons again, but a bit quicker, hopefully!

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Easy=5min/km, TEMPO 4:30ish/km Race pace 4:10-15

Mo
recovery day, 40 min ez bike
Tue:
volume day, morning 15k bit faster than easy, evening 10k easy
Wed
morning 10k easy, evening 15k with 10x2min pace sets at race tempo
Thur
40min recovery bike, 5km recovery jog
Fri
morning 15 k easy, evening #1 10km tempo w short pickups, evening #2 4km easy
Sat
Morning 17k tempo, evening 5k easy
Sun
big race rehersal day, 40k with final 20k race pace+ 2k warmup/warmdown, whole shebang incl warmup took 3:13, felt fresh enough Monday to sneak in a 5k jog!

Ok, makes sense. Staying injury free is the base of all else. You can maintain form for the 15 min work also after hard runs? If I try that stuff after exhausting myself I usually do 5 half hearted min then call it a day and lie on the floor. For me, I have to do it separately to do it properly.

Um, threshold is faster than marathon pace. I don't understand your schedule at all.

Hm no, that sounds strange sorry if it was unclear. So maybe tempo is the right term? What I meant by threshold is more like harder endurance pace, bit slower than race pace but still foot on the gas. Would be around zone 4 in Training peaks system if that makes sense.?

Edited terminology in schedule, hope its clearer!

Oh, really?

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Inside The Big Ring: Podcast & Coaching

muscle strength as such is pretty irrelevant for running beyond sprint distance, even more so than for cycling. you do need good muscle engagement patterns and no weak links in the chain though - lifting can help with this.

in my experience, that "strong" feeling from being a bit heavier is more to do with having energy stores than muscle. i prefer to seek an effortless feeling rather than light or strong (of course that only comes when rested)

that said, my running has got significantly faster at the same time as my weight has increased. i put this down to the increased training volume as a triathlete (swimming adds aerobic volume over what the legs can handle from bike/run) and the increased weight gives me the energy to do that volume as well as holding down a full-time job, life etc, without breaking down.

it is all very individual though so experiment and see what works for you

Input based on 33 years of tri racing and another of 12 years (4 years club, 4 years uni, and 4 years high school and even more before that) of competitive track racing for me. Also from coaching others over 35 years and from learning from other coaches. The weights will not turn people into world class runners or triathletes but if all else equal, that supplemental training will give an edge to the stronger athletes for endurance and speed at the end of the race distance. Understand the legs cannot go faster than your pumping arms. And if your pumping arms go a little faster than the others and with a little more distance in your stride than the others, then you can understand who earns the advantage.

Watch many of the world class distance runners, they use minimal use of their arms. They're extremely efficient runners based a lot early environment of being at attitude, born with run/aerobic oriented slowtwitch muscles, and in a community of running focused opportunities. But most of us aren't like that. We compensate by using some arm pumping and strength to make us go faster. Burns more calories but gets across the line faster. On your next workout, try not to use your arms. Mentally "pin" them on chest/pecs and focus on running with your legs only. If you run faster that way, then change to that form. Otherwise, you will benefit from the greater strength.

Nearing 50 and beyond, you body naturally sheds muscle. Doing some weights offsets or at worse, slows nature down a little in the process.

I like your variations and mash-up of workouts. One suggestion would be to do races instead of a hard workout if doing a hard 20K and training for a half-marathon PR (or 40K when training for the full 26.2 mile marathon). Not a lot of value in training to race distance when wanting to boost speed. The race will actually force you to rest up prior to and post the race which is good for your body. Also gives you experience in race tactics which is good for your mind.

Addition, as you age, the speed tends to take a toll on our body. Keep your base training over the vast majority of the year. Come back to the speed process about 12 weeks out from peak week. You can race along the 12 weeks but set your top races at 12 weeks out. You can keep a peak for about 6 weeks so you could do A races at Week 12 and again at Week 16-18, then go back to recovery and base training to repeat later in the year or next season.

Finally, swap out those race shoes for some new flats. You feel a bit of spring in some new soles.

Let us know how you go.

Embarrassing, I'd rather be slow than that weak.

Thanks. Yes, I suppose some of the long runs were mostly driven by fear of not having ’done enough’, rather than being smart about speed/volume!

Good reminder also not to try to stay race fit all year, but rather have limited build/peak periods, then back to baseline. With winter coming looking to add 1-2 XC allround workouts, some upper body training there too!

Cheers

Interesting about the ’strong’ vs ’effortless’ feeling. I suppose HM is still far enough that there is no point in trying to ’push’ the pace but rather strive for rolling relaxed. What you sat about weak links, are you referring to posterior chain, or some other connections?

Thanks!