yes, yes, yes, do speed work durong you base. the last thing you loose during the off season is endurance.

i say do weekly 'cruise intervals' they where developed by my personal god Jack Daniles Phd.
Look them up on www.runnersworld.com. they are a great step between lsd and repetions.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

From varying sources I have been told that your body can only benefit from Speed training for a limited amount of time ie 12 consecutive weeks,before you peak.If you keep incorporating speed work into you training at this point you peak will drop backwards. So that is my main issue, making sure my peak is at the right time...I don't wanna peak too early.

good point! he also talked about tempo runs and cruise intervals are more along tempo lines. the serouis repitions should be left for the peaking process.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

I disagree. Training nothing but slow doesn't work on all the systems that allow you to go fast. Spice it up and ride faster, run faster, swim faster than your base speed every once in a while. It ain't gonna hurt you, it will benefit you. There are some noted exercise physiologists, such as Dr. A. Coggan, that don't subscribe to the train only slow for a long-long time theory. In fact, he advocates more training in the so-called "no-man's land" of 85% of VO2 Max...because that is where people tend to race. Carmichael has his pro riders do "tempo" work in the middle of their long slow rides, several days in a row...I dare say Mr. Carmichael's athletes have had good results with this training technique.

I don't discount the value of long base training, but, I do not think that you will harm the value of the base training by incorporating speed work periodically. In fact, I think you will enhance your base training by using speed work intermittantly throughout the base.

Then, when you want to begin peaking, you will already have some speed work adaptations layered into your system, which may allow more intense speed work than your "normal" to be accomplished. Or, you may find that you don't have to start the stressful speedwork peaking quite as soon as usual to get good results. At least, don't be reticent to hit the gas periodically during your base building phase, it's good for you.

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

Hi Benno,
Here's what I think, and it's very unscientific…It depends. I think it depends on how strong you are, how long you've been training and how long your races are, etc. The idea behind building a base is, of course, to get as efficient as possible working aerobically, this provides the platform (base) for your speedwork. In response to yaquicarbo, I respectfully disagree. You don't need to train all your systems all the time and you will probably get hurt if you do ( its also boring as hell doing the same type of workout every day). As Benno mentioned in his original post, you can do what you need to do with your speed training in a few weeks. I think using the techniques Carmichael uses to train Armstrong, Hincapie and co. is not really relevant for most age groupers. Even some top pros crumble under these training programs (Reid, Larsen). I agree that some "speed work adaptations" are good before beginning speed work but you can do that aerobically by concentrating on technique (high cadence), doing fartlek, running fast down hill (carefully). Spend your time getting strong, your speed work is a waste if your form falls apart because you aren't strong enough to hold it together so run/bike hills (frequently and aerobically), lift weights (controversial, I know), and go long. That way when it is time to go hard you will be ready both mentally (you'll be itching to go) and physically. There are a lot of really seasoned athletes on this board and what applies to them doesn't apply to everyone. An fast ironman can probably get by doing his uphill one-legged tempo rides from January through November, I personally can only handle them from the end of March through early November (haha). I say, stick with your program.

Don't misunderstand what I said, I used the words: "periodically, intermittantly, and every once in a while" when recommending doing speed work while base building. Never did I mean to do the same workouts all the time, nor to do speed work all the time.

However, I do think if you had two twins and trained one of them nothing but slow, then added a speed peaking workout lasting a few weeks, then compared this to the other twin that did the same base training with periodic, intermittant, every once in a while speed work, THEN added the speed peaking workout, the second twin would be faster. I have no way of proving this to be true, it's just what I think I see with the people I work with, and with my own performances.

I'll say it another way....blast up that hill every once in a while, or see what your best top speed is on a flat if you feel froggy that day during your long slow workouts. It will not hurt you, and it may make you perform better after your real speed peaking work.

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

Cheers guys for your input.

At a minimum, it seems that the majority (of research and anecdotes) agree that the overwhelming majority of training during this period should be below lactic accumulation levels.

This seems reasonable.It also seems reasonable that a minor amount of speed work thrown in from time to time would not prove particularly detrimental to an aerobic focus.

I am going to incorporate a programmed resistance training program this year as well, as the main departure to my program...and also include some periods of extreme aerobic volumes (a few 8 hour days), obviously followed by adequate recovery periods. These will be the main changes this year, lest I find compelling reasons to change other features as well.

Cheers

Benno

Don't underestimate the real benefits of the 8 hour kind of workout....low intensity, long workouts like that can be a solid cornerstone in a good foundation, it can also be a stimulus allowing a break-out from a plateau. As you said, recovery is so important...the more you stress your system, the more it is important to recover.

Just keep in mind the COST of recovery when designing your plan. A six hour bike followed by a 2 hour run has such a high cost, it's not adviseable for anyone but the Elite...I mean really crazy gifted Elite. However, a two hour swim plus a 6 hour bike isn't a bad idea, or one and a half hour swim, 6 hour bike, 30 minute run...it will also show you if your nutrition strategies are correct. Whatever you do...DON'T BONK. Slow to a creep or stop, if your gut is giving you problems, until you get it corrected. The recovery cost after Bonking is too high a price to pay.

If you keep to your plan, you will have a PR race this year!

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

Wow! 8 hour days in prep for a 1/2? Why not do the full distance? If I were you I would aim for 2 peaks. If you train long and slow for 8 mos.+ you will cease to get biggest bang for your training buck. You've gotta change it up. Your body will respond better to new stress' and after about 3 mos. you'll begin to adapt to the same routine and cease to get the best results. Since you are already 6 weeks in, I would try to peak in mid-July and then again for your 1/2 in Oct. For a half I see no reason to go longer than 5 1/2 hours. Do 2 workouts a day if possible and spend the time you save trying to get faster. Also good on ya for statring a weight program. If you do it properly I think you will be pleasantly surprised at the results such a program can yield. and remeber hills, hills, hills!

Yaqui- I agree with you 100%, letting it all hang out once and awhile is worthwhile although I don't really consider that "speed work" per say. Definitly can boost the ol' morale! (Although somtimes it can really hurt). I guess I was thrown by the references to those professionals who I think were gearing the programs and research you referenced to elite athletes with alot more strength and experience then most of us.
As far as your twins analogy, I think it depends on the race distance and possibly the terrain. If its an IM distance I would put my money on the long slow twin anyday. A half is a little less of a sure thing, depends on how long they've been at it. First time racing, or MOP/BOP age grouper I would go with the long slow one again. I too have no science to back this up except my own experiences.
Rock on Dudes!

I am struggling with the different zones and training within in them. My aerobic zone is 112-140 but unless I literally walk, within a mile of slow jogging I will exceed that range. Slow easy running puts me into the lactate threshold zone within 10 minutes. Only on an easy bike ride can I stay bellow 140. I was wondering if anyone had any idea what this could tell me about my physiology or how best I should train. Common sense tells me that going for walks to stay within my aerobic zone is not going to be very useful for any kind of training. Also when I do run hard or race I always get into the anaerobic zone. I was trying to approach my trainning more scientifically but the numbers of the zones don't seem to jive with training that would make sense. Any help appreciated. Norm

Yeah,

in the last season (down under) I did 2 or 3 big days (1hrSwim/3-4hrBike/100minrun) and loved em to death.Also Had 2 or 3 mini big days eg 3hrbike/2hr run.

I still feel like I have a long way to go with maximising my aerobic system.Not sure why I feel this way...just intuition.I could also do with the weight loss.I am 94kg at 6ft3, which is way from ideal for tris. So there is that benefit too.Early season weight loss is a great way it seems to increase performance later on (for varying reasons I wont go into here).

Also, downunder we need to qualify thru by doing a half IM, in order to be entitled to enter IMOZ.So the long term aim is to maximise my system,ready to take on the full distance.

I have a little problem with not going off on enormous training days that may seem to be a little over the top.I enjoy them so much, that it keeps my fire going. I also believe,as mentioned, that the gains that can be made by improving my aerobic system by these volumes is significant.Sure, when it comes time for race specific training, then you hit those with focus and do the workouts, but now, in the base, I love to let my wings fly:-)

Cheers

Norm, I don't know a thing about you, but, I'll take a shot. I'm guessing you are in your 40's, haven't been exercising regularly for long, and would be in favor of losing a few pounds. (If I missed the mark, I apologize.)

If all of that is correct: Then, even if it doesn't make common sense to you, stay with your aerobic level plan. Believe it, or not, you will begin to see real improvements in a little while. How long that will take depends upon your physiological makeup, how regular you are with your training, and whether or not you are eating "better" than you used to. You have to be patient, be dedicated to doing the workouts, drink enough (I don't mean beer:)), and eat right.

However, HR's are just a guess at your Lactate threshold. Do you know your resting HR in the am when not awakened by an alarm? Have you (with a doctor's permission...a cya statement) seen what your max HR is? There is always the slim possibility that you are one of the people that have a higher HR range than normal, especially if you don't fit into the description in my first paragraph. If so, your HR range estimate could be incorrect. Like I said, it's not likely the case.

Don't worry about the walking part. Everybody I know does this when starting out. Most people continue to have to walk at times when they're doing base training phasework, if they are being very strict about it.

It is also normal to say that only on bike rides will your HR stay down this low. Guess what? That's one of the reasons riding bikes is a great way to get LONG times of training upon, at least compared to run-walking. You can keep your cardiovascular system in this Aerobic Zone, training it to be more efficient, for long periods of time with less boredom, less chance of injury, and with a convenient way to haul water with you (in water bottles mounted on your bike). Plus, ever notice how bike riders are able to smile at passersby, but runners almost never do?

Be patient, the gains will come!

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

Not to bad. Part of your profile is right on. I am 38, I have been exercising for a long time however I made a shift back in 2001 after 10 years of almost exclusive body building I decided I wanted to do the Chicago Marathon. In Jan. of 2001 I stopped lifting and started running. I was 195 and approx. 12% body fat. After about 4 weeks I developed both shin splint and plantar fasciitis I had a gait analysis, orthotics, stayed off the concrete and ate viox and motrin like candy. Takeing 2-4 days off between runs I remained undaunted and completed the Marathon. I took 3 months off afterward but when I tried to start running again the symptoms returned. I figured the jig was up I wasn't going to get an ulcer from NSAIDs and being in constant pain. So I went back to lifting and I could handle 20 minutes of running once or twice a week. Then in July of 02 I heard our town was hosting a Tri for the first time and I thought it would be great to try. I had no bike or swim experience but that was ok because those were the two things I figured I could do without bothering my shins. In the process I was able to improve my aerobic capacity because I found that unlike the running I could spend a lot longer time biking and swimming. Well I completed the Tri. loved it and decided to get involved in the sport. I continued my training over the winter got a different pair of orthotics am down to 175 at 10% body fat and the shin splints are almost completely gone. I have brought my 5k from 26 minutes down to 20 flat, so I have been thrilled with my progress however when I decided to take it to the next level with the heart monitor and zone training thats where I ran into the discrepancies. My max heart rate of 184 came from the fit test on the Polar monitor. My resting rate is in the low 50's. Do you think the years of heavy lifting may have had an influence? I was squating over 400 pounds and beching over 300. Thanks for your input, Norm

Norm, I missed some on my guess! However, you are not atypical in that it seems as if you have been mostly an anaerobic athlete for most of your recent years. And yes, that extra muscle does make a difference. I had to quit lifting for a good while before I really sped up on my endurance race times. It takes a long time to get your cardiovascular and neuromuscular and energy systems to their most efficient points. That's one of the reasons the top endurance athletes are generally in their early to mid 30's...it takes a long time to develop to their potential.

You have the somewhat frustrating position of knowing you can do more work than most of your peers while lifting weights, and even when running a 5K. But, these two activities are not completely dependent upon maximum development of your aerobic systems. Even if it drives you almost crazy, do the low heartrate workouts for a while. How long? Here's one way to know...map out about a 5 mile course that you will be repeat. See how long it takes you to complete that course staying at your max aerobic HR. Repeat it every week. You should see improvement in your times. When you stop seeing improvement, it's time to move on to the next phase of your training.

By the way, I'd place your max aerobic HR at about 145. As you train over a period of time, your true max aerobic HR will rise, because you can actually train your endurance system to stay aerobic at higher and higher percentages of your max HR. This takes time, though, and is partly why you should do this slow base training. The good news is, although you should check this aerobic base training level periodically, you don't have to completely re-do this base if you are staying active year-round. Actually, re-doing a base phase is a good idea even in the middle of a season as a break from the hard and fast workouts.

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

I suggest you read this article. It is to the contrary of some of the advice you will get from others on this forum, and what is considered "conventional" wisdom.

http://vnews.ironmanlive.com/vnews/cycling/1043335320

Thanks, it's always great when people point out articles like this!

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

I appreciate you taking the time to give me your input. Should all my workouts be in the aerobic zone or is one long slow workout a week adequate. Or does this just depend on my race schedule and race distances for the spring. Thanks.

Norm, I really don't know what is best for you to do. If you are having a tough time keeping your HR down for what you think is an easy running workload, I'd really have to see you run...are you a very inefficient runner? Or, is your idea of "easy" really not most people's idea of "easy"? Or is your aerobic engine just that undeveloped? Or, do you go into atrial fib or atrial tach when you start to exercise? (Perhaps you should ignore that last statement, I'm not trying to scare you, although it is a possibility.) The general principle that many people follow is that long slow distance training has it's valid place in a workout regimen.

I don't agree with those that say this is all you need to do. I feel like there is truth to what the RAM recordholder said when he broke his own record...the thing he did in his training that sped him up so much was; intervals once a week. He went on to say something like: if interval training helped my performance in the Race Across America, it should be helpful to anyone that races shorter distances. Now, mind you, he had a great base from which to work off of, but, this is an extreme case.

But, if you want me to take another guess without seeing you, I think for now you can work mostly on your base, sprinkle in some lactate threshold and even higher workloads every once in a while, and get better results than if you only did one or the other level of workload. At some point, though, you get diminishing returns with EITHER extreme...with increased chances of injury if you only do the high power output training. Once you build a good base, I think you may do well to revisit it periodically for short periods of time...there again, testing yourself on your 5 mile run course to see when your improvements start to decrease...then it's time for harder work for a while. Rinse. Repeat.

This works for the people I know, and for me. But, none of us are world class, although we are still getting faster every year, rising through the AG ranks as we go...sometimes steadily, sometimes in leaps, but, we are all improving using this basic theory.

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

Thanks, your input has been very informative I'm sure it will help. Norm