I haven't had a chance to listen to this one just yet, but it looks like Brian's latest episode of the SoCal Cyclist podcast is all about BWR. Might be worth a listen.

Small Cycling World Alert: When I was on the podcast, Brian and I realized that I had raced with his brother at UCSC in the early 90's. The same time Damon was down the road at Kestrel giving me the inside scoop on the cool stuff they were working on at the time. It really is a small (cycling) world.

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Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099

my experience and feedback...
2016: Specialized Secteur with 50/34 and 11-28 gearing and Specialized Turbo 28s. The gearing was fine, but yeah, Double Peak was still rough. These were just about the biggest tires my bike (brakes) would allow, and they were fine. No flats with butyl tubes.

2017: Same bike and gearing, but Spec Roubaix 25/28s tires, latex this time around. The latex and sealant saved me. I stopped for a snack break around mile 90 and noticed a construction sized stable in my front tire. The tire was still holding pressure, so I decided the leave the staple in place. I finished the last 50 miles or so with that staple still there. I've since removed it, and still use that same damn tube with sealant, although I only ride that bike maybe 3-4 times a month.

Anyway, last year, I made several mistakes with nutrition/hydration, and was pretty miserable the last 40 miles. In fact, I was cramping up anytime I'd put any power to the pedals, so I actually ended up having to walk up Double Peak (that sucked). I don't know if it was the weather, or the fact that the course was back-loaded with the tougher segments, but it had a considerable DNF rate if I recall.

Other bike setup notes: test your bottle cages. it's pretty comical how many ejected bottles you see along the first stretch of dirt. Also, both years, my handlebars slowly rotated forward from the pounding. The harsh ride can take a toll on your wrists too. Cushy tires, thick bar tape, padded gloves would all be helpful with that.

I may jump in and do the wafer this year. I'll be at a camp that ends Saturday night, so I won't have the energy for the full waffle experience after camp.

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TEAM F3 Undurance

I know Shimano says you do, but I've run a 32 tooth for some steep climbs without any problem. Ultegra 6800 setup, regular cage derailleur.

Alternately, you could run a 30t cassette (available in 8000, 9000 and 9100 groups) with a 34t chainring and avoid having to buy a new derailleur and longer chain.

Folks should chime in on tire pressure as well, along with true tire size and whether running tubes or not. I find a lot of people running "larger" tires for the first time tend to overinflate and not get all the benefits of the bigger tire, but I've never done BWR so I don't know what the limiters are for that particular course. I did the Rapha Gentleman's Race (now Prestige) in Boulder a few years ago on 27mm tires at 60/65psi, I was 78kg at the time. When I do mixed media rides on my Boone with 33mm Roubaix Pros or 35mm G-Ones I typically run 38/42psi.

Which latex tubes are you running? Vittoria and Michelin seem to max out at ~28. Are you simply using those in the bigger tires? Thx

These (and they work fine in tires slightly larger than the rated 38mm max): http://www.challengetech.it/...er-tube-046/80003/en

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I've got a DA 11-30 running with a SRAM etap derailleur..From what I've read the 11-32 won't work with the regular cage SRAM derailleurs. With the 30 T I was able to get the cage adjusted perfectly to spec and it shifts as beautifully as any electronic drivetrain.

I've set up my Hutchensen Sectors tubeless on my DT Swiss aluminum rims - they are 28mm rated, measured out to 31mm and seem to fit well. I'll need to take it on some dirt for a test - I'm a little concerned about clearance for pebbles that may get spin up in the bottom bracket area.

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" I take my gear out of my car and put my bike together. Tourists and locals are watching from sidewalk cafes. Non-racers. The emptiness of of their lives shocks me. "
(opening lines from Tim Krabbe's The Rider , 1978

Good podcast, I enjoyed the listen and have now added it to my subscription. Adam Mills from Source Endurance was definitely in the Tom A. camp of the bigger, the better for tire size. Also seemed to hint that this year might be dirt heavy.

Yeah, he definitely "sees the light"...and I certainly agree on his "28s are valid for about only 20 riders" comment :-)

I think I would beg to differ on his suggestion of needing some sort of "texture" on the wider tires though. It's not really needed for the dirt (just running the wider tires at low pressures is the biggest advantage), and any texture or tread beyond what's on the Compass tires is really just going to slow you down on the pavement. It's not so much the "weight", as he implies, but how well they roll...and excess "texture" or tread hurts that (along with excess "puncture belts" and stuff).

Also, they talked about clip-ons. I'm fairly certain those are specifically excluded from BWR. There's not many equipment rules, but I think that's one of them ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

No clip-on aerobars seems like a good rule. I know a lot of these made their way into DK200 last year but that strikes me as more of an endurance battle where it makes sense to have optionality. I'm hoping BWR doesn't follow suit.

FWIW, I am only doing the wafer but here is my setup. Santa Cruz Stigmata, compact 50x34 up front with a 34x11 DI2, in back running 35 mm Panaracer GravelKing SKs tubeless. I am fat so I need all the low gearing I can get. Trying to determine if it is worth it to swap the rear dear to an xt and get a larger cassette on the back for some of the climbs.

They have a series of Recon Rides setup that started last Saturday, the next being Sunday March 4 starting at Lost Abbey Brewery in SD. According to Michael Marxx (Spy and organizer) Saturdays ride was a majority of the first portion of the course, total mileage being around 74 miles 5,900 ft finishing with Double Peak. I cut it short due to time constraints, being dropped and making a few incorrect turns. I only saw 1 guy riding road tires (Michael) most everyone else was rolling gravelish tires it looked like. My setup worked great for me but did group up with 3 other guys and they were one skinnier gravel tires.

Hope this helps.

Regarding aero bars and the first Recon Ride (see previous post):
Aero bars would be pointless on first 70ish miles, first 6 miles ok then not again till miles 27 to maybe 31. The trails were open and I imagine they will be day of, lots of people out on double track and fire roads, lots people/cyclists/horse back/dog dodging.

If you are on Facebook, search the Road Bike Action Page or BWR page and they put up a short video of one section to give you an idea, what was posted was the less technical part of the ride.

Super helpful - I saw the Facebook route and the video of the rocky stretch. I'm going to keep an eye on future videos and reports. I assume if it stays dry the SK would be a good tire in 32 or 35 - do you find it fast rolling on the road? I'm all over the place on tire choice based on all this information, although I'm going to swap out my 46/36 for 50/34 so I have a little more range on both ends on the gear spectrum.

Considering there is very little penalty for the wider gear range, I think that's a great idea and what I'm doing as well.

Being in Colorado and having never ridden these roads or trails, it's been tough for me making tire choices as well.
Additionally, I do not have much experience with these types of types as the vast majority of Colorado "Gravel" is perfect for road tires (Brown roads). I ride latex tubed road at 25c. Tubeless and Tubular CX at 33c and Mountain bikes. I find the 33c cx tires to be very capable in gnarly conditions and am having a hard time wrapping my head around needing something larger. I won't know or trust it until I can test it. Unfortunately the founder of Compass is not someone who inspires me to ride his product.

My plan is this:
1. I made a choice (30c Schwalbe G-One Speeds). I chose these because I think a true 28c road-tire will be under-gunned and I'm extremely comfortable riding almost flat CX tires in terrible conditions. With the wheels these are being mounted on, I expect them to plump up to ~33c, the same as my CX tubulars

2. I'll mount them this weekend and ride them.Extensively. See what they're about.

3.I'll also keep an eye on the course reports, routes and videos.

4.If, in the next 7 weeks, I feel that I'm undergunned. I'll buy something else.
(At this point I'll probably have to make the decision between big and fast but tubed (Challenge Strada Bianca) or tubeless but maybe a bit "slower")

I realized I was stressing myself out over something that really isn't a big deal.
I'll ride, I'll have fun.

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I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com

This is good resource for people on tires and gear choices http://source-e.net/...-guide-neil-shirley/

Neil was the editor of RBA as well as pro on road and MTB. He won BWR twice and is an ambassador / survival camp ride leader.

Hopefully great minds think alike. I just bought the G-Ones yesterday. Going to mount them up, see how wide they measure, and plan to take them out on the gravel/dirt trail (unfortunately its crushed limestone we have here in the midwest so I'm in the same boat of not having identical conditions) assuming if ever gets dry enough and I'll see how they perform. I'll have something in 35 in reserve, but haven't figured out what that is either!

Let me preface, I am not out to win, just out for the experience and love dirt riding and this new gravel stuff. I am 6'3, 255 lbs and have decent handling skills (IMHO) in the dirt. The SKs are the only gravel tire I have ridden, I would imagine that 32's or smaller will roll better on asphalt but I am not comfortable with them based on what i saw. The first 1 mile of the dirt portion I saw 4 people that had flatted, not sure the tire size as they didn't need help but that just made me feel better about choosing a large tire. It might be overkill, but I want to play it as safe as possible. Would rather lose time then chance a flat on tubeless. The large tires will help you "float" over some of the more rocky sections on the course. I ran my pressure at a pretty high 53, and felt on the paved would have liked it higher. I didn't get any tire slippage in the dirt so going to try a higher pressure this weekend to see the diff.

Definitely a good resource. It would be interesting to ask him why he stopped at a width of 33mm in his recommendations though. It seems a bit arbitrary. I would be interested in hearing his thought process on that.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I'd add that no one has been competitive (podium) on anything but a road bike and road tires. Are you racing or finishing? What's the goal?
I've used 27mm and 30mm tubulars for my previous BWR.

I'd recommend a 32t for sure. I've done it on 50/34t and 11-32t and 50/34T and 12-33t. This year I plan on using 46T and 10-44t and Schwalbe S-One (G-One Speed) 30c tubeless tires.

The course has added more and more dirt and technical sections but the front of the pack has always been populated with road bikes and raced like a road race. Attacks and surges and all of the tactics therein.

Good luck,
Dave

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https://www.kickstarter.com/...bike-for-the-new-era

Here you go:
“I guess saying "33 max" wouldn't be correct because there are people running bigger than that. I've never run a tire wider than 28c out there, and the men's event has never been won on anything wider than a 28c, but for those just trying to get through the day, a wider tire can help.”

Ok...cool. I guess it would be interesting if someday one of those "top 20 riders" that the Source Endurance guy mentioned actually tried the ride on some fast-rolling wider rubber. Since something like a 36c Challenge Strada Bianca rolls as fast on pavement as a Conti GP4K, I can't imagine they'd cause them to get dropped...but the bonuses in the dirt performance will be significant because of being able to run much lower pressures with less worry about flats (pinch or puncture).

In other words, saying "nobody has podiumed on anything wider than 28" might be succumbing to a bit of selection bias.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

This presumes that their speed on the dirt is slowed by the narrower tire.
This is much harder to measure than rolling resistance as it has more to do with the mental willingness to travel fast on sketchy surfaces with skinny tires.

In my experience (again, primarily in cyclocross), the fastest riders do not think like us "normal" folk.

ie. I ride faster on rough terrain with wider tires not because I have exceeded the limit of narrower tires but because I am more comfortable and allow myself more speed while truly fast riders do not have that mental hang-up.

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I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com

Well...it's a pretty good assumption that all other things being equal, wider tires run at lower pressures are faster off pavement. To use your CX example, why are CX tires wider than typical road tires?

Also, why is there a maximum width limit on tires in CX? If wider isn't faster for those conditions... ;-)

But, this is ignoring that even if there's no speed advantage off-pavement, as long as there's no dis-advantage either (on or off pavement), then being able to run lower pressures is going to be a benefit.

Think of it this way, even the fast guys are out on this course for >7 hours. Anything that can help to keep the rider "fresher" throughout (especially considering the amount of dirt that has been added in the last few years) is going to be an advantage.

I rode the 2nd year of BWR (2013) on an aluminum Soloist running 23c Conti GP4Ks (measured more like 25). That was fine for that course, and the Compass Snoqualmies I rode in last years' version would have been overkill. However, you couldn't pay me enough to ride the 2017 course on my 2013 setup though...the courses are that much different now. I could ride it...it just wouldn't be very fun, especially at the end of the day.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

part of that may be tradition.


I've not done any tunnel testing on this or even detailed field testing, but whenever I ride tires >=28c they are notably slower on timed sections of courses (roads) I ride routinely. Some of this could be due to higher Crr, I'll freely admit (although I have used tires with the same construction and tread in 23, 25 and 28c), but it seems to me there is a notable aerodynamic hit as well.

Tom, have you ever measured or modeled this?

I know it can vary based on the design of the rim. I have not seen a rim that has *less* drag with a 28c tire than it does with the same tire in 25c. At 32-33c (e.g., when I ride a CX tire on the road, even if it is a slick) it is easy to see the tire does not fit as well on the rim.

(I've used Zipp 303s for comparison purposes.)

I don't know the pavement/off-road component of the BWR, but provided there is quite a bit of time on pavement the aero hit could be meaningful--esp for a fast rider who attacks a group.

Curious for your thoughts.

I haven't measured or modeled the effects...but, I recall someone doing so...maybe Jack Mott has it archived on aeroweenie.com. I'll have to go take a look. My general recollection though is you don't really lose much with increasing tire width at low yaw angles.

I'd have to say though...more than tire width, I notice number and shape (round vs. bladed) of spokes in a wheel much more. Using the same tires, it's pretty surprising how much better a pair of 24 bladed spoke Zipp Course wheels go as compared to a nearly identical (rim width and height) set of American Classic 32 round spoke wheels I have.

...OK...found this old Zipp chart on aeroweenies. It only goes up to 25 (but it's a Conti GP4K, so it probably actually measured close to 27mm mounted), but it appears there's fairly small differences from 0-10deg of yaw angle.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Perspective. I'll be out there on an 03 Fuji running 25's as that's the largest that fit.

You'll be fine.