Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]

Apr 21, 21 12:33

Post #26 of 55 (3922 views)

I do plan on going higher, I'll also be taking Gu gels and Stroopwafels with me. Those will supplement my ~100g of carbs per hour that I plan on taking via liquid nutrition. That should add 20-40g of carbs per hour. Since I won't be taking extra powder with me, I'll probably have to switch to water and increase the carbs via food.

Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [Th4ddy] [ In reply to ]

Apr 21, 21 12:40

Post #27 of 55 (3915 views)

Perfect

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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]

Jul 5, 21 19:22

Post #28 of 55 (3731 views)

DrAlexHarrison wrote:

Th4ddy wrote:

RossJ wrote:

Dr. Alex usually chimes in on these since he’s a wiz, but the gist of it is just use plain table sugar and salt to make your drinks. You realllly dont need the fancy stuff, it gets expensive fast. I normally do 60g cane sugar per hour, and you can increase it based on intensity and stomach tolerance

I have read some of his posts but get confused quickly when the discussion turns to concentration of calories per liter, and everything goes over my head, and I can't figure out just how much of each ingredient is going into each bottle. Hopefully he can chime in, he seems incredible knowledgeable on the topic.

Example 3-hr ride with 120g/hr carbs, and 1000-1200mg/hr sodium.
Bottle 1:

Fill half full with water, then add...
1.5 cups sugar (~300g carbs)
1 large scoop Gatorade (~60g carbs)
1 Tbsp Sodium Citrate (~1000mg sodium)
Shake vigorously
Then fill remainder with water and shake again.

Bottle 2 & 3:

Water. 1L each. ( Zefal Magnum Bottles (32oz))

Can get away with less water on cool days or easier rides. If doing less water, cut back on sodium so as not to exceed 1500-1800mg/L consumed. Rule of thumb: 1 tsp sodium citrate in front bottle, per bottle of fluid onboard.

Can also get away with using table salt for cool days where water and sodium consumption needs won't be as high.

Mount for spare bottle:
Additional Universal Bottle Mount

I'll often load one 1-L Zefal bottle with up to 600-700g carbs and basically "drink" from it like it's a giant gel. Shake often. Add water when possible. Riding no-handed is handy skill.

Doctor, any downside to taking that half filled bottle with the mix and separate it equally to the other two bottles so you have a base in all three, then add water?

Thank you

Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [anthonypat] [ In reply to ]

Jul 5, 21 19:25

Post #29 of 55 (3729 views)

Dental health is the only downside to doing that.

And if you are like me, it's nice to chase sugar with water just to make breathing/ swallowing easier

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]

Jul 5, 21 19:36

Post #30 of 55 (3723 views)

I think this information is all awesome but I think I am missing something….what do you do for racing long when you don’t have these personal concoctions handy? Assuming the race is serving some for of Gatorade and gels, what is the recommended plan on an hourly basis?

Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [yikes] [ In reply to ]

Jul 5, 21 20:22

Post #31 of 55 (3712 views)

We pack the desired solution on the bike. Grab water at aid stations as necessary.

On run: Gatorade Endurance is pretty good. Or carry desired concentrate and supplement with water from aid stations.

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]

Jul 5, 21 20:40

Post #32 of 55 (3703 views)

Is it that easy as just pounding table sugar?
Just keep in mind that as soon as you stop the sugar, You are gonna bonk….hard.
So it’s super risky as a nutrition strategy even for healthy people.
You may recover after a while when you finally get your Keto going, but until then….. even if you supply some long chain carbs with all that sugar.

There’s also some concern with that strategy regarding long term effects for those being (pre-) diabetic. Not a small number in the populace. But again, they may be most adapted to that nutrition strategy and feel good doing it.

Just my 2 cents on that wizardry.

Last edited by: nevertoolate: Jul 5, 21 20:59

Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [nevertoolate] [ In reply to ]

Jul 5, 21 21:12

Post #33 of 55 (3688 views)

Correct re bonk. Don't stop feuling. Eat immediately after race or training. Mess either of those up and you have a recipe for feeling pretty rough. Do them well and you can enhance performance by a wide margin over feeling with lower GI options. (Wide meaning meaningful, not like 20%or something silly)

This approach should not be carried out by folks with fasting glucose over 100 or a1c over 5.6%.

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]

Jul 5, 21 21:41

Post #34 of 55 (3676 views)

DrAlexHarrison wrote:

Correct re bonk. Don't stop feuling. Eat immediately after race or training. Mess either of those up and you have a recipe for feeling pretty rough. Do them well and you can enhance performance by a wide margin over feeling with lower GI options. (Wide meaning meaningful, not like 20%or something silly)

This approach should not be carried out by folks with fasting glucose over 100 or a1c over 5.6%.

Thank You for confirming. Do you also want to comment on the notion to mainly only need sodium (citrate) as an electrolyte ( other than the obvious cramping problematic ?)

Sorry, I don’t have a PhD, but I learned this all the hard way.
As when my partner in a multi-day backcountry endurance challenge showed up with ‘sugary’ nutrition.
We got in real trouble when he turned out to be (pre)-diabetic unbeknownst to him.
Since then, I always ask to see the nutrition plan of a hiking/training partner. It’s super telling.

In my experience, shortcuts in nutrition are exactly that…
I do understand that these tips may work well for a shorter race or training session, but think they are woeful unsuitable for IM training or long distance/endurance racing.

Last edited by: nevertoolate: Jul 5, 21 21:42

Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [nevertoolate] [ In reply to ]

Jul 5, 21 21:50

Post #35 of 55 (3671 views)

nevertoolate wrote:

DrAlexHarrison wrote:

Correct re bonk. Don't stop feuling. Eat immediately after race or training. Mess either of those up and you have a recipe for feeling pretty rough. Do them well and you can enhance performance by a wide margin over feeling with lower GI options. (Wide meaning meaningful, not like 20%or something silly)

This approach should not be carried out by folks with fasting glucose over 100 or a1c over 5.6%.

Thank You for confirming. Do you also want to comment on the notion to mainly only need sodium (citrate) as an electrolyte ( other than the obvious cramping problematic ?)

You do mainly only need sodium. Sodium Citrate works great. Table salt also works pretty well when consuming <1000mg/L/hr

I have not studied all-out multi-day racing (yet). I have studied (and coached folks through), events up to 30 hrs, and have recommended minimal potassium, and loads of sodium, and no other electrolytes.

Is that what you're getting at?

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]

Jul 5, 21 21:51

Post #36 of 55 (3670 views)

PS. I have no reason to believe that multi-day racing would be any different, other than anecdotes online, of which I am highly skeptical because many of the anecdotes re: single-day ultra racing lead to boldly stated patently false claims. Just for context!

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 21 13:21

Post #37 of 55 (3557 views)

Just curious, as I don’t see this mentioned, but I’ve heard 2:1 glucose to fructose ratio is ideal. When using sugar isn’t that 1:1? And then adding Gatorade is adding more fructose? Could I supplement with maltodextin if I wanted to go higher on the glucose? Maybe I’m off base but I see a lot of folks recommending maltodextrin as the main ingredient not sugar/sucrose.

Thanks

Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [IanH] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 21 13:40

Post #38 of 55 (3551 views)

I think you just punched Dr. Harrison in the face...

Just kidding, but check out his other posts and his website for more information. New research is showing that 1:1 is probably more optimal, hence why he's suggesting adding sugar to gatorade. There's a limit on how much glucose you are able to process and by aiming for 2:1 you are not maximizing the number of carbs you can take. People are hitting 120-150 g/hour using this mix.

Another researcher you could look into is Tim Podlogar who has done a ton of studies involving mostly cyclists and carbs.

Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [IanH] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 21 14:12

Post #39 of 55 (3544 views)

Quick summary:
https://www.trainerroad.com/...8?u=dr_alex_harrison

1:1 Glucose:Fructose Ratio Works better than 2:1.
https://www.trainerroad.com/...n-a-bottle/30328/200

90-150 grams of carbs per hour during exercise may be beneficial. 90 is not the limit.
https://www.trainerroad.com/...should-you/33210/583

Sucrose works as well as maltodextrin:fructose, and glucose:fructose 1:1 mixtures. >>90g/hr is optimal
https://www.trainerroad.com/...n-a-bottle/30328/204

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [kerikstri] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 21 14:14

Post #40 of 55 (3543 views)

kerikstri wrote:

Another researcher you could look into is Tim Podlogar who has done a ton of studies involving mostly cyclists and carbs.

Been chatting occasionally with Tim since we were both back in our PhD programs. Super sharp guy. Very well read and still performance-minded.

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 21 14:58

Post #41 of 55 (3526 views)

Dr. Harrison,

Is there any advantage to using a mix of NaCl plus sodium citrate vs just sodium citrate alone as one's sodium source in their race fuel mixture? As a point of reference, I've historically formulated race fuel with on the order of 8 to 10mg of sodium/ gram of CHO.

Thanks so much for spending time here giving very useful feedback.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [sciguy] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 21 15:09

Post #42 of 55 (3517 views)

I don't think so. But I don't have an abundance of hard evidence to say no. I tend to like to have reviewed the literature very comprehensively before asserting much certainty, FYI.

I can say for certain that avoiding much NaCl is wise for avoiding GI issues.

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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📱 Check out our app → Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 21 15:20

Post #43 of 55 (3514 views)

Thanks for the quick and well reasoned reply. I now have some sodium citrate on hand and will do several trials before the "big day".

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 21 15:40

Post #44 of 55 (3505 views)

He's a fun follow on IG too. Shows off some of his studies, and also how he fuels his own rides. He is currently on a training camp with a couple of guys, and is boiling thousands of grams of sugar into water for ride fuel!

Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [kerikstri] [ In reply to ]

Jul 9, 21 15:46

Post #45 of 55 (3502 views)

Love it.

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]

Jul 26, 22 9:20

Post #46 of 55 (2297 views)

Alex,

I am gonna experiment with this bottle mixture you suggest. My question is whether you use 1000 mg sodium in one bottle or 3000?

Your RP site link lists this:
Cheapest possible well-fueled 3-hr endurance session:
300g carbs. 3000mg sodium. 200mg caffeine.

This posts says this:

Example 3-hr ride with 120g/hr carbs, and 1000-1200mg/hr sodium.
Bottle 1:

In bottle 1 you suggest a TABLEspoon of sodium citrate but late go on to correct it and say 1 tsp of sodium citrate.

I think 1 tsp = 1000 mg and therefor 1 TBSP = 3000

Am I getting this wrong?

Thanks!

Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [curdog16] [ In reply to ]

Jul 26, 22 10:46

Post #47 of 55 (2269 views)

curdog16 wrote:

Alex,

I am gonna experiment with this bottle mixture you suggest. My question is whether you use 1000 mg sodium in one bottle or 3000?

Your RP site link lists this:
Cheapest possible well-fueled 3-hr endurance session:
300g carbs. 3000mg sodium. 200mg caffeine.

This posts says this:

Example 3-hr ride with 120g/hr carbs, and 1000-1200mg/hr sodium.
Bottle 1:
In bottle 1 you suggest a TABLEspoon of sodium citrate but late go on to correct it and say 1 tsp of sodium citrate.

I think 1 tsp = 1000 mg and therefor 1 TBSP = 3000

Am I getting this wrong?

Thanks!

TLDR: No, not wrong. You are getting it correct.

Long answer:
Thanks for figuring out where the Tbsp vs tsp confusion is coming from! Been wondering where I erred on that. Turns out, maybe, if I'm understanding correctly, it was not an error? I'm still not sure what I previously wrote, but yes:

1 tsp sodium citrate ≅ 1000 mg sodium.
1 Tbsp sodium citrate ≅ 3000 mg sodium.

Maybe where some of the confusion is coming from is that hourly intakes of sodium citrate for this example might need to be about 1 tsp, but that the total for the ride, was about 1 Tbsp??

That RP article I wrote a while back is laying out what might be necessary for a 3-hour ride. 300g carbs, 3000mg sodium, 3L water, IIRC.

That's 1.5 cups sugar, 3 tsp (ie. 1 Tbsp) sodium citrate, roughly, depending on the brand.

Brands of sodium citrate vary from 940mg-1400mg per tsp, and at the time of writing I had only seen the 940-1200mg range and 1000mg was a close enough average for 99% of folks. Turns out, with some companies coming in at 1400 mg per tsp, it's worth getting a little closer in your estimation if using volumetric (tsp & Tbsp) measurements. So, read your labels. If using Pure brand, which I've linked out of convenience, previously, your guess is as good as mine (I just use 1000mg/tsp as good enough still), because they have not yet answered my inquiry regarding how much sodium is in one tsp, and I haven't whipped out my milligram scale to figure it out.

FYI: The app I'm writing will assume 1200mg/tsp because that seems to be a rough/round average of what folks are using. I may also include a feature on the app where users can input how many mg of sodium come from their specific brand of sodium citrate, per tsp.

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
📱 Check out our app → Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
Join us on YouTube → Saturday Morning | Ride & Run Faster and our growing Saturday User Hub

Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]

Jan 7, 23 8:24

Post #48 of 55 (1607 views)

Have you tested using menthol extract to help with heat perception?

Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]

Jan 7, 23 9:22

Post #49 of 55 (1565 views)

Yes. TLDR: worst thing I've ever tasted. If you could even call the experience "taste."

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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📱 Check out our app → Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
Join us on YouTube → Saturday Morning | Ride & Run Faster and our growing Saturday User Hub

Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]

Jan 7, 23 9:52

Post #50 of 55 (1557 views)

Any other tests with menthol not the SIS Gels?

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