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Re: Ask Me Anything About Ironman Mont-Tremblant 2015 [Gjadams] [ In reply to ]
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Jordan-

The swim set you described above, the bread & butter set, do you do the bands & paddles with a buoy?

It is interesting to me because I think body position is one of, if not the most important aspect of swimming fast that most people don't appreciate, & those of use that have swam for a long time underappreciate.
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Re: Ask Me Anything About Ironman Mont-Tremblant 2015 [pyf] [ In reply to ]
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pyf wrote:
Hi Jordan,

I'm late on this one but congrats on a very nice win ! Great to see you back at you level and happy you'll be on the Kona starting list, exciting year in Kona !

I have four questions I hope you can answer :

1) LG Tri-Suit, the one I have seem to have a jersey attached to a short in the rear with a small mesh at the top of the short in the front. Maybe it's the black and white version you have but it doesn't seem to be exactly the same we can buy, yours seem more like a one piece suit with no overlap (like the Fusion), so is it custom or it's the same M-2 we can buy ?

2) Helmet, it seems you did not test the POC in the tunnel and Jim@ero often said without testing the LG P-09 is a good bet, it also has a visor that is pretty nice and it's easy to put on. Since you have a partnership with LG, any reason why you did not consider the P-09 before the POC ? or maybe you did and it did not work out ?

3) How did you loose the Elite bottle, user mistake or it "can" go away with vibrations on rougher roads ? This was one bottle I consider, having tried other aero bottle so your feedback will be helpful.

4) Newton : any reason why you use Distance S III and not the newer version ? Do you believe the "lugs" make you faster compare to other shoes you've ran in ?

Thanks a lot in advance for your feedback and good luck with everything that will come next !

1) It is the standard suit Just as you describe. Probably just my design scheme that makes it seem different. It's a stock M-2 in size medium. Just graphically specific to me. At some point, LG wants to do a custom fit session, but mostly because I want longer sleeves (to my elbow). But still, the basics of the suit will be unchanged.

2) I wanted a helmet that had a shorter tail than the McLaren. The P-09 is almost identical in design to the McLaren. On the one hand, that's a positive because both are fast aerodynamically. But on the other hand, I sort of wanted something that was more different because I had sort of lost confidence in that design. So I didn't try it. I definitely considered it. But decided it was too similar to the McLaren.

3) It got ejected. I used to have a policy of ALWAYS taping an aero bottle in place until I at least got it empty. Most of them do fine when the bottle is half full or so, but not when the bottle is at it's heaviest. I was going to drink it in the first hour or so, but I lost it very soon into the race. I really like everything about the design, so I'll probably figure out a way to make it more secure. I used to put velcro on the bottom of the Virtue bottle for this reason as well.

4) Yes. The overwhelming majority of the weight savings on the IV came from "leaning down" the tongue. The new shoe has a much thinner and, critically, shorter tongue. That makes it much harder to pull on (with elastic laces) in transition. I'm somewhat ambivalent on the lugs. I do like them on paved roads a lot. I do think they compromise somewhat the performance of the shoe when you make turns. But in both cases, it's marginal. Overall, I really like the shoe because it is a low drop shoe that isn't minimal (like a racing flat) or maximal (like a big Hoka). It has a wide midsole rather than a stiff shank for support. And it's just a comfy shoe. Put it this way. If you took away the lugs, I think I'd still like the shoe. If you changed the dimensions of the sole but kept the lugs, I probably would not like the shoe. The whole of the shoe is more critical, I believe, than just the lugs.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Ask Me Anything About Ironman Mont-Tremblant 2015 [Landyachtz] [ In reply to ]
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Landyachtz wrote:
Congrats on a great race Jordan! It's good to see you on top again.

I know you've ridden, essentially, the same position for quite a while. Have you given consideration to making tweaks to improve your aerodynamics? Not saying they necessarily need improving. Just curious.

For example, one thing I've always noticed about your position is that your elbows are spaced relatively wide, and also directly under your shoulders. Surely this is a very stable elbow position that's comfortable for 112 miles. However, the result, I *think*, is that this causes your shoulders to be pretty wide given your body frame size. Have you, or would you, ever test out a slightly longer/higher/narrower elbow position to better facilitate rolling your shoulders in without changing your hip angle? Or do you primarily consider comfort, given the distances you're racing?

I've tried riding narrower than that in terms of elbow position. It's just not sustainable. I used to ride about 20mm wider, but that was like 2008. It took about a month to adapt when I went narrower, so that was my benchmark. When I tried dropping another 20mm, even after a month I just wasn't comfortable, so i switched back. I'd consider trying this again, but would need to know just how much faster it was.

The one I'm going to work on - maybe before Kona, but probably not - is hand position. I want to raise my hands higher. Not like praying mantis high. But higher. I have some new custom extensions from Zipp to facilitate this. I have been working on this on the road currently with grip position. Like holding the shifters with just my pinkies rather than whole hand.

So yes, I'd consider moving my elbows narrower, but ONLY narrower; not further away and not narrower/further. And I'd move my hands up/down. But that's it. The hands thing is almost certain to change. The elbows? Not until I can get back in the tunnel to know if it's even worth testing on the road.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Ask Me Anything About Ironman Mont-Tremblant 2015 [Gjadams] [ In reply to ]
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Gjadams wrote:
Do you carb load, and if so which protocol do you use?

Yes. The one where I eat a lot of carbs before the race. Wink

In all seriousness, I just try to eat my normal balanced diet leading into the race and to have a bit larger portions than normal the day before. I consume a lot of carbs anyway, so I don't really change anything. I just maybe skew the ratio a bit more towards carbs in the few days before the race. Like, I eat rice & eggs for lunch a lot. So before the race, I'd have more rice - but the same # of eggs - for a meal.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Ask Me Anything About Ironman Mont-Tremblant 2015 [turningscrews] [ In reply to ]
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turningscrews wrote:
Jordan-

The swim set you described above, the bread & butter set, do you do the bands & paddles with a buoy?

It is interesting to me because I think body position is one of, if not the most important aspect of swimming fast that most people don't appreciate, & those of use that have swam for a long time underappreciate.

There is no pull buoy on that set. Band is ONLY the band. Paddles ONLY the paddles. I do a lot of pulling with all gear - buoy+band+paddles - but not for those two sets. By design. Because doing it without a buoy forces you to work on body position, especially band only. When I use the buoy, it's because I want to focus on fitness and use the buoy to help keep body position good even as I get tired.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Ask Me Anything About Ironman Mont-Tremblant 2015 [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, if you can't adapt to it in a month then it's certainly just not going to work for you. I just look at a position like Jan Frodeno's (who I think exhibits what I was talking about), and compared to yours (obviously you're not the exact same body type) I have to think you're leaving some watts on the table. However, it may not be worth the tradeoffs. The elbows forward, I think, is essential to comfortably rolling in your shoulders. It doesn't take much, but IME it makes a big difference in the effort required to get your shoulders narrow. Just food for thought for a potential tunnel trip or ERO trip.


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Re: Ask Me Anything About Ironman Mont-Tremblant 2015 [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
turningscrews wrote:
Jordan-

The swim set you described above, the bread & butter set, do you do the bands & paddles with a buoy?

It is interesting to me because I think body position is one of, if not the most important aspect of swimming fast that most people don't appreciate, & those of use that have swam for a long time underappreciate.

Thank you! Obviously your crazy fit in the pool to do that set with the bands only. I always convince my non-swimmer triathlete friends to try my band at the pool, & they rarely make it 15 yds. I think the band is extremely valuable.


There is no pull buoy on that set. Band is ONLY the band. Paddles ONLY the paddles. I do a lot of pulling with all gear - buoy+band+paddles - but not for those two sets. By design. Because doing it without a buoy forces you to work on body position, especially band only. When I use the buoy, it's because I want to focus on fitness and use the buoy to help keep body position good even as I get tired.
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Re: Ask Me Anything About Ironman Mont-Tremblant 2015 [turningscrews] [ In reply to ]
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I've done 500m+ in open water band only. But like most, I could barely get across the pool the first time I tried it. It is THE best tool for adult onset swimmers, IMO.

http://thetriathlonbook.blogspot.ca/...e-forgotten.html?m=1


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Ask Me Anything About Ironman Mont-Tremblant 2015 [Landyachtz] [ In reply to ]
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Landyachtz wrote:
Yeah, if you can't adapt to it in a month then it's certainly just not going to work for you. I just look at a position like Jan Frodeno's (who I think exhibits what I was talking about), and compared to yours (obviously you're not the exact same body type) I have to think you're leaving some watts on the table. However, it may not be worth the tradeoffs. The elbows forward, I think, is essential to comfortably rolling in your shoulders. It doesn't take much, but IME it makes a big difference in the effort required to get your shoulders narrow. Just food for thought for a potential tunnel trip or ERO trip.


I think Jan is less stretched out now.



This coincides with his move to slightly higher hands.

I do not know if he is wider in elbows though.




"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Ask Me Anything About Ironman Mont-Tremblant 2015 [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Earlier in this thread, you said you do most of your riding on the road bike. I think it was you or Dan who said the back and forth between road and tri bike is pretty seamless if you keep the same leg extension and hip angle. So given all this, are you riding mainly road bike for safety/control on public roads. I find I am doing that and only riding the TT bike for a few key workouts here and there even in race season. It's just easier to react in traffic etc.
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Re: Ask Me Anything About Ironman Mont-Tremblant 2015 [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks! Congrats on a great win!
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Re: Ask Me Anything About Ironman Mont-Tremblant 2015 [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Didn't you have issues at IM Canada and a couple of other issues with pain and diarrhea at a couple of races a few years ago?

_________________
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Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.
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Re: Ask Me Anything About Ironman Mont-Tremblant 2015 [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with Landyachtz here. Hard to say if it's actually faster, but when I look at your position that's one of the things that I would try...elbow more on the pad and higher hands. I bet this would allow you to comfortably go narrower at the elbow. In the end, it might end up being more about aesthetics...especially if it wasn't faster, but it could be more comfortable?

Mat Steinmetz

51-SPEEDSHOP.com - instagram - @matsteinmetz - facebook
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Re: Ask Me Anything About Ironman Mont-Tremblant 2015 [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Congrats on the win.

You were one of the few pros showing his power numbers on the IM/Quarq tracking site. I think there was one other male.

Are pros opting out ? if so, why ?
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Re: Ask Me Anything About Ironman Mont-Tremblant 2015 [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
1) It is the standard suit Just as you describe. Probably just my design scheme that makes it seem different. It's a stock M-2 in size medium. Just graphically specific to me. At some point, LG wants to do a custom fit session, but mostly because I want longer sleeves (to my elbow). But still, the basics of the suit will be unchanged.

2) I wanted a helmet that had a shorter tail than the McLaren. The P-09 is almost identical in design to the McLaren. On the one hand, that's a positive because both are fast aerodynamically. But on the other hand, I sort of wanted something that was more different because I had sort of lost confidence in that design. So I didn't try it. I definitely considered it. But decided it was too similar to the McLaren.

3) It got ejected. I used to have a policy of ALWAYS taping an aero bottle in place until I at least got it empty. Most of them do fine when the bottle is half full or so, but not when the bottle is at it's heaviest. I was going to drink it in the first hour or so, but I lost it very soon into the race. I really like everything about the design, so I'll probably figure out a way to make it more secure. I used to put velcro on the bottom of the Virtue bottle for this reason as well.

4) Yes. The overwhelming majority of the weight savings on the IV came from "leaning down" the tongue. The new shoe has a much thinner and, critically, shorter tongue. That makes it much harder to pull on (with elastic laces) in transition. I'm somewhat ambivalent on the lugs. I do like them on paved roads a lot. I do think they compromise somewhat the performance of the shoe when you make turns. But in both cases, it's marginal. Overall, I really like the shoe because it is a low drop shoe that isn't minimal (like a racing flat) or maximal (like a big Hoka). It has a wide midsole rather than a stiff shank for support. And it's just a comfy shoe. Put it this way. If you took away the lugs, I think I'd still like the shoe. If you changed the dimensions of the sole but kept the lugs, I probably would not like the shoe. The whole of the shoe is more critical, I believe, than just the lugs.

I've found that an elastic band works wonders for aero bottles: if you attach it between the bolt mounts/low down on the cage, it stays on so you can resecure it between uses. Quick and easy, never lost a bottle since. Same goes for behind the seat.
They are also way more secure on the seat tube than the down tube, but I guess you don't have that choice!
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Re: Ask Me Anything About Ironman Mont-Tremblant 2015 [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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"Calorie input is critical. How you "feel" is a very bad thing to go by, IMO, during ultra distance racing."

Can you elaborate more on why "feel" is a very bad thing in ultra distance racing? Id like to hear your opinion.
Thank you and congrats! You looked great each time i saw u!

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Re: Ask Me Anything About Ironman Mont-Tremblant 2015 [dboatx] [ In reply to ]
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I do not want to put words into Rappstar's mouth but what I took away from what he was saying is that it is much better to stay on top of the calorie input like you would stay on top of your hydration because when you feel thirsty, it normally means it is too late and it takes much more effort to get your back to a state where you are stabilized or close to where you should be.

AERO & LIGHT is RIGHT

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Re: Ask Me Anything About Ironman Mont-Tremblant 2015 [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
I've done 500m+ in open water band only. But like most, I could barely get across the pool the first time I tried it. It is THE best tool for adult onset swimmers, IMO.

http://thetriathlonbook.blogspot.ca/...e-forgotten.html?m=1


That is such a well written article. I fundamentally disagree with the conclusion about bands - specifically that using them forces you to hold more water - but I really enjoyed reading the article.
Last edited by: ajthomas: Aug 20, 15 8:01
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Re: Ask Me Anything About Ironman Mont-Tremblant 2015 [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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You mentioned not needing to do your typical acclimation. Can you tell us what that may have looked like had you need it?
Rappstar wrote:
I've done 500m+ in open water band only. But like most, I could barely get across the pool the first time I tried it. It is THE best tool for adult onset swimmers, IMO.
http://thetriathlonbook.blogspot.ca/...e-forgotten.html?m=1
Thanks for the link and the comment on the blog post.

@christopher_borden
Spinning Spoke Dimond Bikes Flo Cycling Castelli Cycling
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Re: Ask Me Anything About Ironman Mont-Tremblant 2015 [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:

Training is my job

i approached it with Joel as "15 weeks to Hawaii"

Peak week was 27.5hrs.

Longest continuous workout was 7hrs - that ride was 6:15 and then 45min run off the bike.

This week I am supposed to do one "activity" each day. I might be able to swim a little today and tomorrow

hey there - congratulations. that was an awesome performance. its really inspiring.

here are some follow up questions based on the aggregated answers above.

1 - do you ever not have a race on the calendar? if not, if you always have a race coming, please think of a period with that race is furthest away. what are you hourly numbers during that sort of period?
2 - this is your "one activity a day" week and then you have 8 weeks to kona. will you get back to 27 hrs between now and then?
3 - will you add or change anything to make your training more "kona specific"? will the s/b/r ratios change?


thanks for fielding these. this is very generous of you.
cheers
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Re: Ask Me Anything About Ironman Mont-Tremblant 2015 [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:

I think Jan is less stretched out now.



This coincides with his move to slightly higher hands.

I do not know if he is wider in elbows though.


Yeah he looks very slightly less stretched out. Still has his elbow in front of his shoulders though. It very well could just be how he was sitting on the saddle at the time each of those photos were taken. The hands, if anything, looked higher on his shiv, but that also could just be photo angle. The basics of the position are the same though. Elbows slightly forward of the shoulders, and narrow, which allows him to roll his shoulders in comfortably and with less impact to his breathing.

Again, obviously your position (or the close correlation of your positions) over the last 6-ish years has allowed you to win 6 ironmans, so if it works it works. But if there's some low hanging aero fruit, then I'd say take it, because even 10 watts, at your level, is huge.
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Re: Ask Me Anything About Ironman Mont-Tremblant 2015 [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Less a question and more a statement and a congratulations.

I was in the lead swim boat and thought that newbie Brian Fleishman did you a huge favour. Brian was swimming very comfortably for the first 1-1.5km of the swim. That had Eric and Paul 2-3 and 1-2 others going slower then they would normally swim and you seemed to be the benefactor swimming very fast but hanging onto the back of the lead group for the first 1/3 of the swim. Eventually Brian realized the swim was too slow, pushed on, pulled Eric and eventually Paul a part. It seemed like a great bit of good luck (which you were very smart to execute) but the slower initial swim seemed to work into your hands to keep you closer to the leaders and away from the chase swimmers behind you. So nice job on taking advantage of the OPPORTUNITY when it appeared.

Lastly, you looked incredibly under control in your bike and run execution. Very happy for you and Jill, Joel and your many sponsors and supporters. Nice things do happen to good people.

Regards

Barrie Shepley
Internet IRONMAN LIVE SHOW COMMENTATOR for the 2015 Ironman Mt Tremblant Race
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Re: Ask Me Anything About Ironman Mont-Tremblant 2015 [Landyachtz] [ In reply to ]
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Landyachtz wrote:
Rappstar wrote:

I think Jan is less stretched out now.



This coincides with his move to slightly higher hands.

I do not know if he is wider in elbows though.


Yeah he looks very slightly less stretched out. Still has his elbow in front of his shoulders though. It very well could just be how he was sitting on the saddle at the time each of those photos were taken. The hands, if anything, looked higher on his shiv, but that also could just be photo angle. The basics of the position are the same though. Elbows slightly forward of the shoulders, and narrow, which allows him to roll his shoulders in comfortably and with less impact to his breathing.

Again, obviously your position (or the close correlation of your positions) over the last 6-ish years has allowed you to win 6 ironmans, so if it works it works. But if there's some low hanging aero fruit, then I'd say take it, because even 10 watts, at your level, is huge.

10w... That's a lot... Definitely worth trying over the winter. I'll head up to Dan's and see if we can find something on the fitbike that seems worth taking out on the road or to ERO.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Ask Me Anything About Ironman Mont-Tremblant 2015 [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Earlier in this thread, you said you do most of your riding on the road bike. I think it was you or Dan who said the back and forth between road and tri bike is pretty seamless if you keep the same leg extension and hip angle. So given all this, are you riding mainly road bike for safety/control on public roads. I find I am doing that and only riding the TT bike for a few key workouts here and there even in race season. It's just easier to react in traffic etc.

Yes. I VERY much like to have my hands on my brakes all the time.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Ask Me Anything About Ironman Mont-Tremblant 2015 [docfuel] [ In reply to ]
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docfuel wrote:
Didn't you have issues at IM Canada and a couple of other issues with pain and diarrhea at a couple of races a few years ago?

The diarrhea was the food poisoning at IMAZ. The IMC incidents I'm not sure. They sort of seemed like isolated incidents. Never had problems at Texas or NYC... In 2011, there was some thought that it might have been smoke from the fires that caused some issues. I never really worried because the issues seemed really isolated.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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