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Armchair quarterbacking - is Rohan Dennis aero
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Looking at pics from the TT today (attached), I would think by slowtwitch standards Rohan isn't as low as optimal. He doesn't seem to be scrunched by the UCI constraints like Tom Dumoulin. He absolutely crushed the competition. Is that something unique to Dennis and what is most aero for him? I'm not saying he looks bad, but I kind of expected a position similar to Rosskopf. Castroviejo seems extreme but it works for him
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Re: Armchair quarterbacking - is Rohan Dennis aero [mkng1] [ In reply to ]
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Given BMCs emphasis on TTs and the testing they do, I have no doubt that Dennis is punching a very small hole in the wind. I will agree that he doesn't look overly low, but the eyeball aero test isn't always right.

He has been killing the TTs this year. It will be a good battle at Worlds against Tom D.
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Re: Armchair quarterbacking - is Rohan Dennis aero [mkng1] [ In reply to ]
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He must be aero. He doesn't appear to be an exceptional powerhouse, so he must have low drag.

I agree it looks way taller than optimal, but looks can be deceiving. You gotta test. He isn't the only fast pro that sits tall like that. Being narrow is another important aspect.

These are shots from today. Note that he keeps his head down most of the time, yet is still able to see (turtle).




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Re: Armchair quarterbacking - is Rohan Dennis aero [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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Rohan Dennis is absolutely pushing big big power. I have a picture somewhere here of the high scores of the Rabobank riders physiological testing from about 7 years ago in their testing facility. Dennis was pushing huge watts and blowing other big name riders on that team out of the water.

That said, he is also slippery. VERY good w/cda
Last edited by: turdburgler: Sep 11, 18 12:22
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Re: Armchair quarterbacking - is Rohan Dennis aero [mkng1] [ In reply to ]
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This came up in another thread (in another way) - most of the fastest UCI cyclists have a posterior rotation of the hips because that produces more power. Triathletes tend to focus on anterior rotation. It appears from the photo that Dennis' hips are posteriorly rotated and that gives him at least the appearance of sitting high.

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.
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Re: Armchair quarterbacking - is Rohan Dennis aero [turdburgler] [ In reply to ]
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turdburgler wrote:
Rohan Dennis is absolutely pushing big big power.

I think if he was he'd be a stage racer, or at least win a few climbing stages. He isn't big and heavy (6' 157lbs), compared to Froome or Tom D. or Geraint Thomas
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Re: Armchair quarterbacking - is Rohan Dennis aero [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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It’s all in his head :)

Almost any shot you see of Rohan, his head is below the top of his back. More aero experts can tell me I’m wrong, but I feel a great position is one where you can routinely keep your head below the top of your back. If it means coming up a bit with the cockpit, you *generally* will be able to push more watts.

Alex Arman

Strava
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Re: Armchair quarterbacking - is Rohan Dennis aero [david] [ In reply to ]
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david wrote:
It appears from the photo that Dennis' hips are posteriorly rotated and that gives him at least the appearance of sitting high.


It isn't just appearance. His shoulders are a lot higher than his hips. The front of his torso is angled up.

This guy has obvious posterior rotation, yet he still bends over:



Or compare to this guy who won the Chrono Champenois again last weekend:


Last edited by: rruff: Sep 11, 18 12:45
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Re: Armchair quarterbacking - is Rohan Dennis aero [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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That is what he is trying to do; change his body type and GC ambitions. The Giro this year was his first experiment with that. He still needs to lose a bit more weight and get a bit more comfortable with high mountains and punchy climbs.
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Re: Armchair quarterbacking - is Rohan Dennis aero [turdburgler] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know if it's accurate, but wikipedia lists Tom D, Thomas, and Dennis all at 6' 157lbs.

I suspect that as unlikely as it looks, Dennis has the lowest CdA of those three. Or maybe sitting up higher gives him a power edge in the TT position that he doesn't have when climbing.

Here is Thomas for comparison:


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Re: Armchair quarterbacking - is Rohan Dennis aero [mkng1] [ In reply to ]
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I have his drag numbers. Trust me, he's good. ;-)

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Armchair quarterbacking - is Rohan Dennis aero [mkng1] [ In reply to ]
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mkng1 wrote:
Looking at pics from the TT today (attached), I would think by slowtwitch standards Rohan isn't as low as optimal. He doesn't seem to be scrunched by the UCI constraints like Tom Dumoulin. He absolutely crushed the competition. Is that something unique to Dennis and what is most aero for him? I'm not saying he looks bad, but I kind of expected a position similar to Rosskopf. Castroviejo seems extreme but it works for him

I think you can get into a lot of trouble going by internet standards when it comes to what looks aero and what IS aero.

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Armchair quarterbacking - is Rohan Dennis aero [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
I have his drag numbers. Trust me, he's good. ;-)

It's such a relatively comfortable looking position too!

Have you fit many riders into a slippery position that looks similar, or is he kind of an anomaly? When I look at him he doesn't appear to have any unique morphological attributes. Frontal area appears to be higher than most of his competitors, so Cd must be quite good.
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Re: Armchair quarterbacking - is Rohan Dennis aero [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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Didn't fit him, just aero tested. As someone pointed out, he keeps his head low, which really helps him. You're correct about comfort; he always looks pretty relaxed in his upper body. Otherwise, he has a pretty standard build for a pro cyclist. Appears to have a healthier weight than most of them. That frickin' helmet works great on him, too. Interestingly, when the Aerohead was still in development, they had another visor/shield that actually tested much faster for Rohan, but he couldn't see out of it, so it was never produced.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Armchair quarterbacking - is Rohan Dennis aero [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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As you noted this looks very comfortable and also tested fast. What stops more people from being in this type of a position? Is it mostly his ability to keep his head below his shoulders in this position?

FYI, you fitted me a couple years ago and it's been great. Tried lowering it a bit to be a bit more aggressive and I couldn't sustain it.
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Re: Armchair quarterbacking - is Rohan Dennis aero [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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Does anybody know what kind of setup Rohan Dennis use to slightly tilt his extension bars up?
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Re: Armchair quarterbacking - is Rohan Dennis aero [mkng1] [ In reply to ]
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Some interviews with David Millar on Youtube (by A1 Coaching I think) pointed out the obvious, which I'll summarise as:

Your goal is not to be as aero as possible.
Your goal is not to be as powerful as possible.
Your goal is to be as FAST as possible.

Speed/elapsed time is the real measure you want to focus on. Aero is obviously related, but it isn't the end goal. CdA doesn't get you trophies.
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Re: Armchair quarterbacking - is Rohan Dennis aero [TiCass] [ In reply to ]
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TiCass wrote:
Does anybody know what kind of setup Rohan Dennis use to slightly tilt his extension bars up?

It looks like he (well... the mechanic) has shimmed an angled spacer in his setup. The best way to do it is to put a shim under the pads and then add an extension with the necessary rise. You *can* also put a shim under the whole mounting setup on some bars. (like the 3t brezza) I did this for a while but had some concern with the way it all mounted together that eventually it would damage the threads of the mounting hardware. You can see in the picture below the difference that a few (10 I believe) degrees shim made.


My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Armchair quarterbacking - is Rohan Dennis aero [turdburgler] [ In reply to ]
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Again this idea of low being absolutely necessary for fast. In my wind tunnel time, every time I went lower, I went slower. Higher was also bad. There was a good thing in the middle where it all works. I'm not super aero at 6'3" and 205 pounds, but there is a height where things seem work for me and lower isn't it.
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Re: Armchair quarterbacking - is Rohan Dennis aero [mkng1] [ In reply to ]
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I think Castroviejo wins... even though he came in 50 seconds down.


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Re: Armchair quarterbacking - is Rohan Dennis aero [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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Morelock wrote:
TiCass wrote:
Does anybody know what kind of setup Rohan Dennis use to slightly tilt his extension bars up?


It looks like he (well... the mechanic) has shimmed an angled spacer in his setup. The best way to do it is to put a shim under the pads and then add an extension with the necessary rise. You *can* also put a shim under the whole mounting setup on some bars. (like the 3t brezza) I did this for a while but had some concern with the way it all mounted together that eventually it would damage the threads of the mounting hardware. You can see in the picture below the difference that a few (10 I believe) degrees shim made.

Well, thats why I'm asking. It seems the pads and the bars are tilted up... so I was wondering how exactly he did that with his BMC / 3T cockpit. I kinda want to do the same.
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Re: Armchair quarterbacking - is Rohan Dennis aero [iamuwere] [ In reply to ]
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iamuwere wrote:
Again this idea of low being absolutely necessary for fast. In my wind tunnel time, every time I went lower, I went slower. Higher was also bad. There was a good thing in the middle where it all works. I'm not super aero at 6'3" and 205 pounds, but there is a height where things seem work for me and lower isn't it.

Is lower or higher faster?
All depends on where you started at ;)

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Armchair quarterbacking - is Rohan Dennis aero [TiCass] [ In reply to ]
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TiCass wrote:
Morelock wrote:
TiCass wrote:
Does anybody know what kind of setup Rohan Dennis use to slightly tilt his extension bars up?


It looks like he (well... the mechanic) has shimmed an angled spacer in his setup. The best way to do it is to put a shim under the pads and then add an extension with the necessary rise. You *can* also put a shim under the whole mounting setup on some bars. (like the 3t brezza) I did this for a while but had some concern with the way it all mounted together that eventually it would damage the threads of the mounting hardware. You can see in the picture below the difference that a few (10 I believe) degrees shim made.

Well, thats why I'm asking. It seems the pads and the bars are tilted up... so I was wondering how exactly he did that with his BMC / 3T cockpit. I kinda want to do the same.

Here’s a close up. I don’t understand how it works. Must be 2 sets of bolts. 1 set runs through the base bar and threads into the bottom of the angled spacer. The other would need to be perpendicular to the angled portion of the spacer to connect the extension clamps?
I don’t know. Cam Wurf has the same angled design on his Pinnarello. I just don’t know how it all actually threads together.



Alex Arman

Strava
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Re: Armchair quarterbacking - is Rohan Dennis aero [TiCass] [ In reply to ]
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Make a shim.
You could have one 3d printed (picture above) Or grind one of the 3t ones down... All ymmv of course

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Armchair quarterbacking - is Rohan Dennis aero [doublea334] [ In reply to ]
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I think it's just one set of bolts through the bottom. The long shim is straight, the angled one is not severe enough that the bolts wouldn't engage the threads of the mounting bracket. At that point you just tighten them down. It will snug down... but I'm pretty sure you're grubbing out the threads in the mounting bracket by doing it. Not a big deal if you're Rohan Dennis, possibly a big deal for somebody buying their own replacements.

The other option would be to drill/tap that top bracket at an angle. That'd take a fair amount of work to get right though.

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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