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Are Run Intervals useless for most age groupers doing Ironmans?
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If you look at the results of most Ironman NA races, only top 2.5% go sub 3:30 and only top 15% go sub 4 hours. This equates to approximately 8 min to 9 min mile pace. Most people seem to bang off countless miles at this pace in training. They don't need that much "speed" to run 8 to 9 min miles. If you look at an "straight out marathon" 3:30 to 4:00 hours is not particularly "fast". Many atheletes run these times. In Ironman though, these time are actually fairly "exclusive" in the sense that 85% of the field is going slower. If you equate it to marking exams, a 4 hour marathon gets you a 85 percentile score. Not too shabby.

Going back to a few threads I posted last year, I talked about the philosophy of "only so many training + recovery units" that one has. When you are training for Ironman, there are so many workouts that form part of the pyramid that gets you to the race;
  1. long run
  2. long ride
  3. bike hills
  4. bike intervals
  5. hilly run
  6. swim long
  7. swim intervals
  8. swim-bike brick
  9. bike-run brick
  10. B races
  11. C races
  12. run intervals


In putting a plan together, I find that there are only so many things that one can pull off without blowing up and getting totally fried. Some workout require more recovery than others (long runs, run intervals, run hills). Some workouts require more time than others (the 6 hour ride). We're always trying to balance off training time available plus recovery units to be applied to what we do during that training time. Sometimes training time is taken from recovery time (sleep)...not optimal, but we all do it.

We had some jokes running along on slotwitch that its all about being first to T2 and its all about the bike. While we might joke about this, to some extent there is a grain of truth to this. No amount of run fitness will help us if we get to T2 totally cooked. In many years of Ironman racing, I have seen no shortage of sub 2:50 marathoner, come to T2 and then shuffle out a 4:10 or higher (I've done both myself a few times). The swim and bike just took too much out of them.

So while run intervals are great for shorter racing, for Ironman, I have been questioning the value of run intervals. Usually you are doing them on not totally recovered legs, they fry you and take too many days to recover from, thus compromising swim and bike workouts and other runs. Worst of all, you can put all this effort into being a stud runner, only to get to T2 and not tap into that run fitness that you spent so much time honing.

So coaches out there, what type of intervals, if any are your IM athletes doing on the run? My gut says do hill work rather than 6 min mile repeats. We really don't need to be that fast to run 8 min miles (3:30). We just need to be topped up on fuels and relatively fresh coming out of T2. I'm leaning towards doing zero run intervals this summer, saving my fast running for B races, and incorporating hills into all my runs, especially long runs.

I'll do all my intensity in the water and on the bike to try and get me to T2 relatively fresh. I can also recover more quickly from intesity in these two sports.

Thoughts?

Dev
Last edited by: devashish paul: May 16, 06 16:56
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Re: Are Run Intervals useless for most age groupers doing Ironmans? [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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When writing my training plans I use key words and notes that I will understand, I have "strength" workouts and "speed workouts." On the bike and run "strength" either means a tempo workout or hill work and "speed" means intervals. During a Half-IM or IM year I still find value in doing either 1000m, 1200m and rarely 1600m intervals. If I am doing mile repeats it is usually what Jack Daniel's calls "Cruise Intervals" and they are done in place of a threshold run with very short rest. However, like I said, I still value my 1000-1200m repeats every other week or so. Just personal preference.



Portside Athletics Blog
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Re: Are Run Intervals useless for most age groupers doing Ironmans? [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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I think that you want to take the exact opposite approach when it comes to swimming. Ie do intense intervals.

My coach has me do quite a few run intervals mixed into longer type runs. He must be doing something right given some of his athletes performances...
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Re: Are Run Intervals useless for most age groupers doing Ironmans? [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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Run intervals are never useless for anyone. You don't have to run smoking fast 400m reps but doing intervals at a speed faster than your race pace (which they definitely will be!) will improve your fitness, form and efficiency on race day. Even if you fall apart (my biggest meltdown in 4 IM races was a 3:29 marathon) the speed helps you "shuffle" along better than those that don't do speedwork. Tomorrow I'll be out on the track with some high school girls that I coach. I won't be hammering them into the track but I'll pace them at their threshold and my cruise interval pace and it will be good for all of us.
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Re: Are Run Intervals useless for most age groupers doing Ironmans? [SwBkRn44] [ In reply to ]
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SwBkRn44, you have a good point. I am assuming that I am getting the same effect by doing a B or C race every second week. If not, I might want to do some running that forces me to run with a relatively high peceived exertion. 8-9 min miles off the 112 mile bike can feel like 6-7 min miles fresh. To me, this is the main value of run intervals for Ironman...to get used to high perceived exertion. But doing this has a high price relative to the rest of the program, and the heart can't tell the difference between going hard on the bike, the swim or the run.

Taking it to another extreme, there was one year when PNF went pretty well 9 hour flat at Kona off swim and bike training only. She had a messed up ankle and only started running again a few weeks before Kona. Then again, this is PNF. She's won more Ironmans than anyone. I don't think that all the posters combined on this forum (Lessing, Molina etc) add up to her 20+ Ironman wins (unless Reid, Fuhr and Bentley are posting in stealth...).

Dev
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Re: Are Run Intervals useless for most age groupers doing Ironmans? [Allan] [ In reply to ]
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Allan, you are in that 98 percentile group. Aside from having some reasonably solid genetic run capability, what type of run intervals are you doing at what pace?
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Re: Are Run Intervals useless for most age groupers doing Ironmans? [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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Yes if you think that most age-groupers don't nearly run as much as they should when compared with their bike training.

No if you think that just because you're going to run "slow" you only should run "slow" in training.
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Re: Are Run Intervals useless for most age groupers doing Ironmans? [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]Yes if you think that most age-groupers don't nearly run as much as they should when compared with their bike training.

No if you think that just because you're going to run "slow" you only should run "slow" in training.[/reply]

I've NEVER understood this 'logic'. I know that in swimming I am FAAAAAR more efficient when I have been doing lots of quality/fast training.
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Re: Are Run Intervals useless for most age groupers doing Ironmans? [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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What if you try to read what I wrote until you understand it? Just a thought.
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Re: Are Run Intervals useless for most age groupers doing Ironmans? [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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Umm...I was referring to your comment about training slow because you will be running slow. I forgive you if you failed to explain yourself correctly, english being your second language n all.
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Re: Are Run Intervals useless for most age groupers doing Ironmans? [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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So how much run training is "enough" when compared to bike training for IM??

For me, I've only just exceeded my running total hours ytd w/ biking hrs on a ytd basis (but that's cuz I was very focused on bumping up my run abilities for the first 4 months this year, now I'm on a bike volume kick for the rest of my IM build).

I know yer not about cookie cutter training recipe suggestions, but I'm curious about relative weightings, say time-wise, or %-wise, of S B R in training that you think are most advantageous for having a solid IM mary. (and obviously whatever you espouse seems to be working based on Sergio's results)

Thx-


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: Are Run Intervals useless for most age groupers doing Ironmans? [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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The issue with AGrs doing lighter run training compared to elites boils down to recovery. In essence, an elite can handle much higher running volume than an AGr. That's why some coaches offer the common sense approach of non-elites doing most of their endurance work on the bike - it is the safest way to do it.

Likewise, apart from accidents on the bike, I reckon there is no greater potential for injury than running hard.


kiwipat

per ardua ad astra
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Re: Are Run Intervals useless for most age groupers doing Ironmans? [Allan] [ In reply to ]
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"Run intervals are never useless for anyone."



Totally agree! I'm 56 years old and still come in top 5% in most running races. I attribute it primarily to running fast in practice. Never been a fan of LSD. Only ran more than 40 miles a week once in my life (44). Tired me out.
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Re: Are Run Intervals useless for most age groupers doing Ironmans? [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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"Paulo, I know you don't like to give out cookie cutter recipes, but can you please give me one? Just this once?"

;-)
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Re: Are Run Intervals useless for most age groupers doing Ironmans? [kiwipat] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
That's why some coaches offer the common sense approach of non-elites doing most of their endurance work on the bike - it is the safest way to do it.


That can be common sense for some (not me) if you forget about the reduced transfer between bike training and run ability, and vice-versa. There is no way to work on general "endurance", be it on the bike or the run, and you have to train specifically for it.

Any approach that passes by doing a lot of cycling, to get the "endurance" in, and a little running, will produce race performances that will reflect this, meanng a strong bike and a little running. Lot's of walking though.
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Re: Are Run Intervals useless for most age groupers doing Ironmans? [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev,

Here are some "secrets" from my own formerly 'SL-approved' training:
  1. long run
  2. long ride
  3. bike hills
  4. bike intervals
  5. hilly run
  6. swim long
  7. swim intervals
  8. swim-bike brick
  9. bike-run brick
  10. B races
  11. C races
  12. run intervals


Lesse, I skip 8 and 12 roight off, and often combine 1 & 5. And do 2,3,4 all in one ride, and then do 9 offa that more often than not. Or I do 3 & 4 as a shorter TT ride, then 9. Only started doing 6 ('long' being a relative term in my case) this season (ok, this month). 10 and 11 I don't do nearly as often as you do (who does?? You race 2-3x a month it seems....)

Steve Larsen won't return my calls anymore, my weekly avg is up over 8.5 hrs, and I did 14+ each of the last 3 weeks. He told me "it's not you, it's me", but I don't believe him. ;-)


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: Are Run Intervals useless for most age groupers doing Ironmans? [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev

Most of the pace work that I'm doing is around 76-80 sec. 400m pace for intervals ranging from 200m to 800m. For me, this is a pace that is faster than IM run pace (but I will do a few higher quality runs as we get closer to Muskoka) that is easy enough for me to have energy to train the next day and remain relatively injury free while doing bigger volumes. I rarely run intervals longer than 800m since if it longer than 800m I'd rather do a tempo run.
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Re: Are Run Intervals useless for most age groupers doing Ironmans? [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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I think the problem with this thread and some of DP's other threads (thoughts on positive splitting) is that it's based on anecdotal evidence using very biased and small sample sizes. Although it's obvious that your intentions are good, your arguments wouldn't stand ground in a scientific forum.

The main problem with the argument against run intervals is you assume you only achieve a significant benefit from workouts that match your racing pace. The truth is that higher intensity workouts (threshold and interval training) result in better clearance of lactate by the body, and this benefit is enjoyed at all race paces. Even if you're totally "topped up" fuel-wise coming out of T2, you may still be accumilating lactate in your muscle which will serve to slow you down against your will. Therefore, everyone will benefit from intervals and not just elite athletes.

I do however agree that it is less important than endurance workouts like DP and Paulo suggested and in that sense, interval workouts are "icing on the cake". However, as can be seen by anyone who would trade their aluninum bottle cage for a carbon one, we all like icing.
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Re: Are Run Intervals useless for most age groupers doing Ironmans? [Larbot] [ In reply to ]
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I didn't propose any kind of endurance workouts. I also agree that DP's sample size is VERY small.
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Re: Are Run Intervals useless for most age groupers doing Ironmans? [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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My speedwork (total) since January has consisted of

3 tempo runs 4x6, 4x8 and 4x9 minutes with 1-2 minute jog in between (this was workup for 1/2 Marathon).

2 hill repeat sessions with 6-8 by 2:00 - 2:30 hill at tempo pace.

With only these 5 speed workouts, none done anywhere near interval pace and otherwise easy base miles, I have had the following race results (run)

3K undersize indoor track: 9:31 (ties PR)

1/2 marathon 1:16:40 (severe blisters and trained through the race, within 25 seconds of PR)

10K 33:29 (PR by 2 minutes)

5.67 mile uphill (1600' gain) 38:39 (beat my time from last year by 1:20 and I forgot my flats so I was running in trainers)

So based on this I conclude:

1. IM training makes you fast

2. Most athletes (including myself) are limited by base fitness, so intervals are really a waste of a hard workout. Tempo work probably has some benefit. Just do more base miles.

3. I should have started training for IM years ago.
Last edited by: Tri_yoda: May 15, 06 19:28
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Re: Are Run Intervals useless for most age groupers doing Ironmans? [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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<< but can you please give me one? Just this once?"

;-) >>

Aw crap, it was worth a shot.... yer harder to get training info outta than AC ;-)



I've already got my plan in place. So either it's enough or it's not, I'll know in about 10 weeks.... and for better or worse, it includes zero run intervals.


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: Are Run Intervals useless for most age groupers doing Ironmans? [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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I've been wrestling with this concept for a while now. To begin with, I'll have to accept that run intervals are advantageous since all the reading I have done on the sport points to this. They best way I can come to grips with this is to think back about an 8K race that I crapped out on 18 months ago. I training was solid and I was on the verge of a pr. However, I came down with a bad sinus infection that my body had to fight and it really drained me. I ran about 2 minutes slower (24sec/mile) than my season's training (and TTs) predicted.

Was the fast interval training then worthless since my pace was equivalent to what I could have done without it (ie my pace with no intervals + NOT sick)? The infection fatigued me to the point where, in order just to maintain a relatively slow pace, my body still had to dump significant amounts of lactic acid and my heart had to strain to get as much oxygen into my muscles as possible......just as it did in during my training and just as it would if I was healthy.

So, IMH & unscientific O, if a 2.4 mile swim and a 112 mile bike ride has an effect on my body similar to a sinus infection, then yes, I'll do the intervals. Intervals train specific energy systems in your body which are used during a race. They are not necessarily meant to "get your body used to running this pace" (though that is often part of it).

Comments?

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Are Run Intervals useless for most age groupers doing Ironmans? [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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I have no idea, since I'm still new to this long stuff ...

That said, run intervals 5K pace (which I do often right now) will be WAY down the list when I do my first IM in 2007.

But I also question the valuedoing much intensity on the bike too: For my first HIM, about 90 percent of my bike training was easy and I exceeded my expectations ... It was all about mileage on the bike for me.

Still, it never hurts to fire different muscles or really get the lungs pumping for 30 minutes, so I would venture that strides and some tempo running can only help.

Tell me if I'm wrong.
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Re: Are Run Intervals useless for most age groupers doing Ironmans? [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
if a 2.4 mile swim and a 112 mile bike ride has an effect on my body similar to a sinus infection, then yes, I'll do the intervals.
Comments?
Yes. That sentence is PRICELESS!
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Re: Are Run Intervals useless for most age groupers doing Ironmans? [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with you Barry, what you say seems to make sense.

Paulo you're right, you didn't mention anything about endurance training. I inferred this incorrectly from what you said.
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