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Anyone ever use Phil Maffetone's program?
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I just finished reading his book Training for Endurance and it's very interesting, especially the MAF test that' supposed to be done every 3-4 weeks.

Also, the fact that you're always training aerobically is a completely different approach to training. Worked for Mark Allen. How about any of you?
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Re: Anyone ever use Phil Maffetone's program? [Herschel34] [ In reply to ]
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Funny you should ask.... In 1997 I did use my own adaptation of the Maffetone program in that I adhered to his low heart rate training doctrine. I had my best Ironman ever in Canada that year: 10:40 something. I still think I can do much better, but that was good and the race felt relatively easy. I charted heart rate, etc. and even did a presentation for the local F.A.S.T. club (Ford Athletic Swim and Triathlon Club). I though it was a useful training method and I learned a lot. I'm not 100% convinced it is entirely correct though. His stance on weight training I don't agree with for me, but that's just my .02

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: Anyone ever use Phil Maffetone's program? [Herschel34] [ In reply to ]
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Not personally, but a friend did use it for his first Ironman and once he mentally got over the fact that some hills he had to walk up, it worked well for him.

Mike Pigg also has used it to good results. He spoke at our tri club last week and he said one thing is most people are not patient enough to get results (see comment about my friend above).

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Anyone ever use Phil Maffetone's program? [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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I primarily concentrate on Oly and Sprint distance but I have read most of his books and practice much of what he teaches. I do however agree with Tom in regards to his stance on weight training. His belief that this is an anerobic activity and should be used in very limited quantities, if at all, is crazy IMO.

With the exception of that though I have found that I am getting faster and faster at lower and lower HR's. I find the intervals are needed to increase HR just as he states. I think it has allowed me to stay injury free and resist illness due to overtraining. I also like a lot of his products available on his web-site. I don't think any one person has all the answers but I too think you will learn a lot from him.
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Re: Anyone ever use Phil Maffetone's program? [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Tom, If you had your best IM ever using his program, why stop?
I guess you can't do many group rides, runs, etc because of HR concerns but why else?
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Re: Anyone ever use Phil Maffetone's program? [Herschel34] [ In reply to ]
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For a definitive application of Maffetone's ideas to IM training, order Friel & Byrne's new book, Going Long: Training for Ironman Distance Triathlons. An excellent and sensible approach to IM training. Next time I do an IM (2004 maybe?) I'm going to follow this approach to the letter. It just makes so much sense it's almost silly.

Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/.../103-3239806-4993408
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Re: Anyone ever use Phil Maffetone's program? [Julian] [ In reply to ]
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Amazon says this book is not yet released.
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Re: Anyone ever use Phil Maffetone's program? [Herschel34] [ In reply to ]
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The book "Going Long" is supposed to be available on or about April 30th if I recall correctly.

Lot of discussion on the topic of training at Aerobic Threshold on Gordos site. It seems to have worked for him with a Personal best crushing 8:49 at IMNZ.
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Re: Anyone ever use Phil Maffetone's program? [Barry K.] [ In reply to ]
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{Lot of discussion on the topic of training at Aerobic Threshold on Gordos site.} reply

Anerobic Threshold? That's exactly what Phil doesn't want you to train at.
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Re: Anyone ever use Phil Maffetone's program? [Herschel34] [ In reply to ]
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I didn't say Anaerobic Threshold, I said AEROBIC Threshold, which is much lower. Phil's terminology may be different, but the Aerobic Threshold is how Gordo refers to it and I suspect it will be the same terminology used in he and Friel's new book: Going Long.
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Re: Anyone ever use Phil Maffetone's program? [Barry K.] [ In reply to ]
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My apologies. You are correct.
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Re: Anyone ever use Phil Maffetone's program? [Herschel34] [ In reply to ]
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I spent several years as an 800m runner... running 5k at the longest. When I came into triathlon, I did a lot of training like what I had been doing in my track running days. My 800m times (close to 2 minutes) were much faster than one would expect my 5k times to be (high 17's). Over last winter I spent from Worlds at the end of July until February doing all my training at the Maffetone intensity. Destroyed my 5k PR by running just over 33 for a 10k, 16:31 first 5k. I don't know how or why... I'm not an expert. Right now, I'm working too much to train much and haven't been running at all. Despite no milage in my legs I'm still able to run 6:30 miles at that effort, as compared to to 7:30's when I was a fit track runner.

I can't really put any stock in anecdotal reports, to do so would be blasphemy for a psychology student... but I did get a lot faster.

There have been suggestions that in order to really find the Maffetone program to be effective, one must have a long history of high intensity training... I don't know.
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Re: Anyone ever use Phil Maffetone's program? [Herschel34] [ In reply to ]
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No worries Herschel.

For what it's worth, there is a series of articles that Gordo wrote for XTri.com called Threshold Thursdays (in the coaching section). It's a pretty basic three part series in which he puts his slant on this method of aerobic training.
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Re: Anyone ever use Phil Maffetone's program? [Zinc] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:

There have been suggestions that in order to really find the Maffetone program to be effective, one must have a long history of high intensity training... I don't know.


I'd say this comment pretty much hit the nail on the head. The greatest Maffetone, LSD success stories seem to be those who were, rather they realized it or not, totally fried from a long history of high intensity training. The high intensity probably prevented them from adding any consistant volume to their training. Some of those folks would probably see similar improvement with a long period of total R & R.

I doubt you'll find any success testimonials from folks who've never put in their time training at high intensities. I'm not sure that it's possible to 'long, slow distance' your way to speed.

Another aspect to consider... The time factor. Doesn't the 'long, slow distance' philosophy imply greater training volume. If lactate threshold work allows me to gain the same fitness on 12 hours a week that 'LSD' training would get me on 20 hours a week, why would I want to spend those extra, possibly injury inducing hours every week training?
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Re: Anyone ever use Phil Maffetone's program? [JustCurious] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know about the Maff. type program but someone else mentioned that Friel was similar. I've never done any high intensity work ever before. I've been running marathons for about 4 years, and tri for 1 year including a 1/2 IM. I've been using the training bible for tri training and similar work for running. I've stayed injury free although I'm slow as molasses. I'm just now speeding up enough that I can really apply the training principles correctly.

What I've noticed is that I will plateau, continue the base building and then suddenly have a breathrough. Possibly having a high intensity background would make those breakthroughs more frequent?
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Re: Anyone ever use Phil Maffetone's program? [tom] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not an exercise physiologist... but here's what I see.

There are a huge number of triathletes who are really afraid to do any hard training. This is especially true of the middle of the pack age groupers. They go out to the Thursday night group rides and spend an hour huffing and then consider that to be a high intensity workout. I don't think that the maffetone idea would do anything for these people.

For this first group, you need to get faster... train slow to race slow.

On the other end of the scale are people like me who have spent years hammering and developing speed and lactic acid tolerance. We're the people who can go out and run a 5 minute mile with a twisted little smile on our faces, but somehow only manage a 40 minute 10k off the bike.

This second group needs to get slower... train slower to race faster.



While I'm no expert, I will hypothesize that the neuromuscular vs. aerobic conditioning is the issue. After years of running fast, I'd expect that neuromuscular adaptations to running fast are very far along the curve, and are unlikely to improve further. The aerobic system, on the other hand has been neglected. Despite a high VO2, Lactic tolearance, and neuromuscular conditioning... the body has a very low limit for the onset of lactate accumulation. For the slow group, the aerobic system is maxed out... but the neuromuscular efficiency and lactic tolerance gains of fast training are underutilised.

If someone with better credentials wants to come tell me why I might be wrong then I welcome that!

Cheers.
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Re: Anyone ever use Phil Maffetone's program? [Herschel34] [ In reply to ]
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I guess I'm the human guinea pig here.
  • Second season of triathlon; trained from June - September of 2002, raced twice at the Sprint + distance (longer than sprint, shorter than Oly). I had a HRM, didn't use it.
  • Trained for a 1/2 marathon Oct-Dec. Used plan from Mark Allen's book (based on Maffetone), but skipped the tests. Mark's plan called for running super slow (MAHR -20), slow (MAHR -10), and medium (MAHR) one day per week each. I also ran my long Sunday run at MAHR.
  • Bought Mike Pigg's software for this season. Training plan (Oly) is based on Maffetone, but all the workouts are at MAHR. This time I am actually doing the testing every three weeks
  • I am currently in week eight; I've done three tests (at week 1 and following weeks 3 & 6). I have reduced my (running) times per mile by 1:15, which I'm pretty happy with
  • Last Sunday was my first brick; rode for 60 minutes @ MAHR, then ran for 60 minutes @ MAHR. Not only was I strong to the end, I ended up moving pretty fast (for me, anyway) the entire run - I covered 1/2 mile more than I could on earlier 60 minute runs
  • The goal is to race at MAHR +10 to 20 BPM, and that's where you get "faster" - as Joe Friel says, "it's not who's fastest, it's who slows down the least" - and that's what I believe this training is really about - over time, you get faster and faster at the MAHR, which means you can go even faster @ MAHR +, for a longer period of time. There's absoultely no question thus far that I can maintain faster speeds for longer then I could before.
  • The program does include anaerobic training, but not until week 12 at least, and even then aerobic training constitutes the bulk of the time.
  • Keep in mind that my goals may not be the same as yours - I have no illusions of standing on any platforms any time in the near future - I truly just want the ability and the fitness to race 8-10 times per year (I'm a fast twitch guy in a slow twitch world). For me, racing functions as a means of having a structered fitness regimen - I don't "work out"; I train. There's a huge difference as far as I'm concerned. "Workouts" can be blown off at anytime - you're not building towards anything. On the other hand, you think really hard about missing training, because it may have some impact on your goals. So from my perspective, the Maffetone program has so far given me what I'm looking for. I guess we'll see what happens by my race results for the year

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Re: Anyone ever use Phil Maffetone's program? [JustCurious] [ In reply to ]
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"I doubt you'll find any success testimonials from folks who've never put in their time training at high intensities. I'm not sure that it's possible to 'long, slow distance' your way to speed. "


The point Gordo and Friel make is that an IM is not done "fast" by anyone. Certainly not by a top AG'r or mid-level pro. A 3:15 marathon is not fast (but will get you on the podium in nearly every age group). It is slower than moderate training pace for most serious runners.

The idea is to train to go at your IM pace longer than everyone else in your bracket. Running a 34-minute 10k has nothing to do with running a 3:15 IM marathon. You should train for the IM at IM-type paces; and those paces are not "fast".

And by the way, Friel and Byrne don't suggest going "slow." They agree that "slow" is often a waste of time. The right pace is "steady" or at the lower edge of Friel's Zone2. The pace that feels easy for the first 3 hours of a ride, and then starts to be a bit of work. The pace that leaves you tired, but not shelled, after a 2-hour run.

12 hours a week going "fast" in training is simply NOT the same thing as going "steady" for 20 hours.

I think a lot of the differences of opinion on this have to do with a misunderstanding that this approach is specific to the IM. Nobody ever ran out of "speed" in an IM; people run out of "endurance." Ask Larsen after New Zealand. Here's a guy that can run a sub-1:10 half mary with no problem--plenty of speed. But, he ran 3:22 at New Zealand and went from first to 6th. I think he ran out of endurance, not speed.

Shorter races like Oly obviously require a far higher intensity of training.
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Re: Anyone ever use Phil Maffetone's program? [Zinc] [ In reply to ]
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I hope I don't get into too much trouble for posting this, because I'm giving away information that people are charging money for. Here is the thought behind the training/racing at a low HR: The theory goes that most persons only have enough glycogen to operate above 75/80 percent HR for 45 minutes or so. Thus, if you train to be faster (more efficient) at a lower HR, you are burning more fat than sugar (for simplicity's sake). Thus, you can hit the gas and go as fast as you want the last forty minutes of a race as long as you stay below your threshold prior to.

Now, for some of my personal opinon. If one subscribes to the theory that different people have different ratios of slowtwitch to fasttwitch muscles, than different training methods apply to different people. I don't believe there is one training plan that will universally apply to all. Part of the triathlon journey is trying new things and methods and seeing what works for each individual athlete. It is much like having many tools in a tool box. High intensity training has a place and a benefit in a person's training program. Not every day, every week, every month. Low intensity training has a place too. Weight training, pizza, bagels etc. are all components of an overall plan.

I've done races where I ended up going out harder than I planned because I felt like it. I ended up doing quite well. I've had breakthrough runs with a respiratory infection. I've blown up even though "I did everything right." Heart rate data, watts and the like are very useful TOOLS that can GUIDE an athlete to a better knowledge of one's self, but in the end, it is how well you know your self.

Brett
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Re: Anyone ever use Phil Maffetone's program? [Julian] [ In reply to ]
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I feel people should realise that Maffetone's ideas about training are hardly revolutionary. If you look at cycling you will find a long tradition of building an aerobic base over winter by lots of long, steady, distance (LSD) training. Moreover, although, with the development of sports science through the eighties and nineties, cyclists veered towards more emphasis on high intensity intervals, they are now returning to LSD work. Why? Because, after a while, improvements in speed and strength depend on improving the aerobic foundation and muscular efficiency. It's actually quite possible that high-intensity training based sports science philosophies actually miss key understanding of the human body, so promoting incorrect models. Certainly top cyclists can operate well beyond the bounds of some predicted capabilities, drugs or no drugs.

I think the relative surprise of triathletes (compared to the traditional cyclist) at being told to 'go slow' results from both socio-economic and sporting cultural factors. Historically, cycling in Europe is a 'blue collar' sport, with people starting young, so having lots of time and probably treating long group rides as social activities. Moreover, they may well be hoping to make a career out of the sport and so will be spending every hour possible riding a bike. Combine this with cycling being a sport which, unlike running, can easily be done in extreme volume without injury, and an emphasis on LSD training results. In fact, in the last decade, when traditional cyclists have 'discovered' specific intensity training, improvements can be dramatic because they already have a fantastic base to build on. The subsequent mistake many then make is not to realise that their new improvements depended on having the base.

In contrast, triathlon tends to be taken up by professionals in their late twenties and early thirties, who may well have families. They have little time, and are used to pushing themselves in their careers. They believe they need to maximise what little training time they have, and so will go out and work as hard as possible. With their educated backgrounds they find the idea of control - monitoring heart rates and power outputs, and training at specific levels for set time periods - deeply appealing. Combine this factor with the strong influence of swimmers on the sport, who have probably done that sport during teenage years within a tradition of high intensity and intervals, and you have a generation who do not understand LSD work. In fact, they can't believe that going easy will make them faster. Moreover, early on, their high intensity workouts will produce big gains in performance - but then so would any training, and they will (relatively) soon hit a plateau. Ultimately, to reach their potential, LSD work will be needed, even for short distance events and let-alone Ironman. Now, as for the ratio of LSD:intensity that should be done, that really is an individual matter and something for the individual to discover!

Now considering Maffetone's other beliefs... I don't know whether or not he is right about weight training. Moreover, the benefit of this for triathlon is a subject one can argue about till the cows come home - and people regularly do! On the other hand, I believe his ideas about diet are far more interesting and radical. They also appear to be the most misconstrued of his philosophies. Firstly, Maffetone's dietry ideas are just as much about health as sporting performance - something easily forgotten. And I, for one, am starting to wonder just how healthy this sugar-dependent generation really is? Is sugar in fact killing us all? Secondly, one cannot expect immediate performance benefits on his diet. Physiological adaptations must take place, and this will need time. In contrast, pumping oneself full of glycogen will give oneself energy for sport, irrespective of one's efficiency in fat burning - and hence will produce good results in sports science testing.

Here, I will also comment on the use of sports drinks and energy bars. Again, I will look at cycling. One of my friends used to race seriously, at national (and higher) standard. He's now turned 50. On a hard, four hour ride, he can still give most of us a kicking. On one 250 ml bottle of water. No food. How? He's spent most of his life training himself to ride without food and water, because that's how they used to do it. For instance, back in the eighties, he rode a 100 mile timetrial in 3hr 48m, carrying all his own water (I think two bottles), no energy drink/bars, with no tri-bars or aero wheels. This was possible because of his years of adaptation. Now, I personally do not condone training oneself to survive without drinking water, but with the combined forces of sports science and energy drink/food marketing, we are being led to believe that my friend has impossible capabilities, and that we must rely on a permanent supply of carbs. In fact, I was interested to read of (I think) Chris McCormack's success in Ironman that was enabled by training himself to need less food on rides. My friend has been telling everyone to do this for years...

Returning to the Maffetone diet. What are my experiences like? Typically for a modern Westerner who's interested in sport and health, I spent many years as the ultimate carbohydrate-kid. However, my endurance was always substandard for my fitness level, I'd regularly go through energy lows if I didn't get my carb-fix, and I really did have problems losing those last few pounds. Recently, I started increasing the quantity of (good) fats, in line with Maffetone, and I have been able to improve all these factors. Moreover, I have found I can eradicate my regular bouts of gastro-intestinal distress, and my skin isn't dry anymore. I'm not sure how my ultimate speed compares, (something that shouldn't bother Ironman triathletes anyway - which, I hasten to add, I am not (yet) one of), but then speed isn't my priority at the moment anyway. Having moved from England to Australia, I'm more interested in slowly converting my cycling fitness to triathlon, and learning how to surf!

duncan
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Re: Anyone ever use Phil Maffetone's program? [Herschel34] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Worked for Mark Allen. How about any of you?


For the record, at various times Mr. Allen has attributed his numerous Ironman victories to his vegetarian diet, eating meat, wheatgrass juice, a Huffy bike, a Look bike, etc. In other words, I'd be leery of placing too much emphasis on the anecdotal evidence and elite athlete endorsements (rather than peer reviewed science and accepted physiological pricliples) that Mr. Maffetone uses to argue his point. It seems to me that the variety of diets and training methods he endorsed demonstrates that Mark Allen and other great athletes sometime win despite their diets or training rather than because of them.

JC

-------------------------
Jonathan Cane
City Coach Multisport
http://www.citycoach.org
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Re: Anyone ever use Phil Maffetone's program? [joncane] [ In reply to ]
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What I have always found confusing about the Maffetone/Allen approach is that they do not distinguish between a cycling heart rate and a running heart rate. If I use their formula my max aerobic heart rate would be 155. That HR is a fairly light level of exertion for me when I am running but for cycling it would be close to my lactate threshold and mostly a hard effort. Does anybody have an explanation on how Maffetone approaches this concept?
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Re: Anyone ever use Phil Maffetone's program? [joncane] [ In reply to ]
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Cheers to peer review. Until I see some good study then it's hard to take anything that's said with more than a grain of salt. Triathlon is a hard sport to get decent study from due to the large numbers of potential confounding variables and the small sample sizes... but I think that some good reasoning could convince people.

Traditional training that mixes high intensity and low intensity training seems to be working fairly well for the majority of athletes. In all it's probably a matter of degrees for specific athletes... making a decent study even more difficult to obtain significant results.

In some ways I'd make an analogy between Maffetone and Atkins... both thought something that contradicted tratitional thought, and both have had awesome results. Perhaps in time, study will provide evidence that Maffetone is as effective under certain situations as Atkins has.
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Re:speed and efficiency [ In reply to ]
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Following the Friel program, I test my 5k run monthly. My all out, standalone pr in a 5k is 21:45' (OK I'm slow but I've never seriously trained for short distance).

The 5k test is run 10 beats below lactate threshold. This should be a solid aerobic pace. When starting the Friel program last March, I could complete a 5k at 169 bpm in 28'. Last month, I completed the same test, on the same treadmill, same diet, same rest, etc. in 22'.

Two weeks ago at the end of a sprint tri, I finished a 5k in something like 21:00'. The funny thing is that I set a new 5k pr after I hammered on the bike knowing that I'd blow the run because I wanted to see what I could do on the bike. My wife saw me in T2 and said she had never seen me looking so bad when I started my run. I wonder what I can do in a standalone 5k?
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Re: Anyone ever use Phil Maffetone's program? [duncan] [ In reply to ]
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from Duncan: "In fact, I was interested to read of (I think) Chris McCormack's success in Ironman that was enabled by training himself to need less food on rides. My friend has been telling everyone to do this for years... "

Excellent points made. Just for the record, it is Michael McCormack (two-time Canada winner and 11th last year at age 41) who advocates "controlled deprivation." Standard mix of Cytomax and a couple of bananas and he went sub-8:30 twice.
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