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Anti Drafting Technology
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If a perfect anti drafting technology was available would Ironman actually adopt it?


In my opinion, drafting in Ironman is a huge problem that has gotten worse and worse and has dampened my likelihood to continue racing Ironman in the future if something does not change.

As many on here have pointed out Ironman seems to be consciously increasing it's focus on the masses - those looking to finish. That said there is still roughly 20% of the racers that are Kona competitive. That stat may be slightly off but it is a quick math estimate.

Now, before a whole host of unrelated questions come up - affordability, accuracy, etc - , let's for the sake of this post assume the below:

If:
1) An anti drafting technology existed (was able to accurately indicate time in drafting zone)
2) It was deemed to be accurate through testing
3) It was affordable (my definition of that would be less than $50/participant)
4) It is initially used as a pilot to confirm actual official drafting calls
5) It is small enough to put on participant bikes/and/or participants

I am sure there are some I am forgetting some that you all will bring up - but let's just assume there is a solution that works perfectly. What are the chances that Ironman would actually implement this anti drafting technology? My initial gut reaction was of course they would, to be able to have this kind of information would keep races honest and would take away any athletes from trying to argue against the raw accurate data vs a judgement call of an official. But then when I started to think about it I am not so sure. Because the focus and $$$ has shifted more to the "ironman finishers" (not taking anything away from these individuals at all) than the pointy end of the field, I question whether Ironman would even adopt such an anti draft technology since it would only be pertinent to a minority of the field.

My guess is that many of you feel the same way. After seeing the rampant cheating going on at Ironman TX - my initial reaction was screw this, I'm done with this distance because it has come down to who cheats best than who competes best/who the best athletes are. I have also altered the races I enter which I know will be more honest (hilly courses) where drafters are more likely to be dropped on this hills.

We all know too many athletes who get away with cheating because of always looking over their shoulders looking for officials and dropping back or making the pass when the official is present only to go back to their old drafting ways once the official has moved along. As a competitive age grouper who typically finishes within top 5 of my AG at fulls and 70.3 it is honestly just depressing to see how much drafting takes place. If there was a tech that could accurately hold people accountable at all times it would completely even the playing field. I have considered just going back to Olympic distance races because the cheating/drafting takes the fun out of the game. All I would like is for a fair and honest race where the best competitors win.

I look at other sports like the NFL (implementing playback/review) and tennis (playback review) which in both cases are used to verify human judgement calls. While this technology existed within both sports for years before it was actually implemented it ultimately took hold.

Look forward to hearing all your guys thoughts. I am also aware that I am most likely posting this question towards the demographic of the pointy end racers so it would be an imperfect survey of individuals who would lean toward wanting to adopt such a technology. There are also plenty of individuals who are fast blatantly draft as part of their race strategy and would hate to have such a technology introduced- would love to hear the insights from those people as well in a forum where you are anonymous.
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Re: Anti Drafting Technology [riley86] [ In reply to ]
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Change everything from drafting to doping and I think you have your answer.
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Re: Anti Drafting Technology [riley86] [ In reply to ]
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riley86 wrote:
...Ironman seems to be consciously increasing it's focus on the masses - those looking to finish. ...


And those that draft are more likely to finish, making them happier (paying) customers. Why would a multi-national conglomerate who's reason to buy Ironman was to make a foray into "alternative, income-generating businesses away from the property market" want to change that?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanda_Group


"Since 2005,[2] recent years Chinese property developers like Dalian Wanda and Evergrande have made forays into "alternative, income-generating businesses away from the property market". The Financial Times noted that Dalian Wanda was the "most aggressive" in pursuing this strategy, pointing to its 2012 acquisition of U.S. cinema chain AMC Theatres and 2013 purchase of British yachtmaker Sunseeker. It noted that it was also "building theme parks across China, and has a joint venture with Tencent and Baidu to set up an e-commerce platform".[13]"

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com
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Re: Anti Drafting Technology [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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I would argue with your statement that "those that draft are more likely to finish" - if you are going high 8 - low 10 hours for an Ironman (Kona slot contenders) - I believe one is just as likely to finish the race whether they draft or not. I knw who bought the Ironman Brand and agree with you that they are just concerned with generating $$$ - however I would also argue that if you loose a large majority of the faster athletes who are getting fed up with the drafting cheating going on - then the vibe of these races changes and the long tail implications will be a total decrease in participation.
Last edited by: riley86: Jul 18, 18 12:51
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Re: Anti Drafting Technology [riley86] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with your logic, but most people don't act logically. Even if they know they will finish, they'll still draft to minimize the pain (huge motivator) and to make their finishing time shorter to brag to others (possibly bigger motivator).

The anti-drafting tech has to be so good, it basically has to be invisible and make the race experience even better than it was before. Just like how much it took Tesla to make the electric car revolution really take hold - it had to be faster, quieter, and more awesome than an ICE engine car, for the same price or even lower. It had to out-accelerate a Ferrari and look like a Maserati but cost 60 grand or whatever for people to even think about it. That's ridiculous, but that's what it takes for people to change.

However the anti-drafting tech works, it needs to ask nothing extra of the racers, actually save money for the Wanda overlords, and have some cool extra features like live tracking come with it for it to get adopted. Otherwise it will just sit unused on the curb because of the perceived hassle.

You also have to look at the Churn rate of athletes. Ironmans are packed with first-timers and Wanda loves that. A returning athlete doesn't make them anywhere near as much money as a new athlete. A new one blows a ton of money on travel, hotel, bike, wetsuit, Ironman brand coaching (coincidence?) and other products for their first time. The experienced and smarter triathlete is re-using stuff and also learning to save money and not spend as much. Best example is how some Ironman races don't even have pro fields. Wanda views them as an expense. Those are the epitome of faster athletes that change the vibe of the race, and Wanda often doesn't even let them register at all.

Their ideal customer is the "one-and-done", and drafting actually helps those athletes do that. I wouldn't expect Wanda to change anything and continue to just look away. It's the exact same reason they don't require a qualifier to race an Ironman, even though it's dangerous for them not to. Requiring people to prove they could make it eats into that huge profit margin of first-timers. They don't want experienced triathletes anywhere near as much as they want newbies spending tons of money on new equipment and doing whatever it takes to cross that finish line, including drafting.

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com
Last edited by: ZenTriBrett: Jul 18, 18 13:20
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Re: Anti Drafting Technology [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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Yep, those are all valid points for sure. Unfortunately, in my gut I agree with you that they would continue to look away EVEN if the perfect technology did exist. The fact is that the technology exists to create such a device and it had me questioning why DWG would not put in some R&D into such a device. It could exist within the same timing chip already worn. But why put money into developing such tech if they can just turn a blind eye I guess is the mentality.

Your points validate that my thinking is the minority and that most would not be calling for this technology to actually be implemented. Would be interesting to see if the tech was developed, if top age groupers would voluntarily wear such devices even if the findings had no consequence to actual Ironman results. I know I would in a heart beat, but a lot of the people out there would rather cheat and see a better result than race honestly and achieve their actual best. We can see this in all the course cutting going on at marathons and tris and now even ultras (did you see the dude who sits in the porta potty during ultras in order to cheat?). This now gets into a different topic than my original post - but I honestly wonder how people can feel good and even boast about their results all why knowing they cheated. It is pretty disturbing and in my opinion, borders on some kind of physiological disorder. Just sad
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Re: Anti Drafting Technology [riley86] [ In reply to ]
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I agree. One such way to get adoption for a pilot project is something like, "You can't KQ or be eligible for awards unless you use the anti-drafting technology". That gets people that supposedly care to get the ball rolling. Kind of like how the faster folks get drug tested when they cross. If you get an award or KQ, you get proof that you did it for real without cheating. That's that kinda "extra" benefit I was talking about earlier. Or similarly, anti-drafting tech gets paid for by the fact it shows live tracking. You want your family and friends to see how aaaaaaaaaaaaaamazing you are? That's $50 extra so they can get detailed info on you. And then that money pays for the tech to monitor drafting on everybody else as well.

----------------------------------------------------------
Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com
Last edited by: ZenTriBrett: Jul 18, 18 13:45
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Re: Anti Drafting Technology [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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I like both of those incentives - they are good carats for sure - thanks for the added insight - just the stuff I was looking to hear.

All of this also plays into the same reason we are seeing a lot of the really hard Ironman courses go away - people are looking for a best time - AZ, FL etc rather than grueling races that really test limits* I put the * because completing an Ironman is testing limits in its own right but sad to see really great tough courses being eliminated one by one.
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Re: Anti Drafting Technology [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
However the anti-drafting tech works, it needs to ask nothing extra of the racers, actually save money for the Wanda overlords, and have some cool extra features like live tracking come with it for it to get adopted. Otherwise it will just sit unused on the curb because of the perceived hassle.
The technology has to be tamper-resistant. To be successful, it has to a) measure draft box distance and time in and out, b) record violations, c) know which racers are involved - some unique id or bib # or whatever.

If an end user can easily prevent the recording of data, or block transmissions then you have a problem. If someone more technically inclined can alter the id, you have an even worse situation than no tech at all -- penalizing the wrong person.

I think it would also need some speed awareness. You don't want it recording a penalty on someone who racked their bike at an aid station to use the portapotty.
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Re: Anti Drafting Technology [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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ZenTriBrett wrote:
I agree. One such way to get adoption for a pilot project is something like, "You can't KQ or be eligible for awards unless you use the anti-drafting technology". That gets people that supposedly care to get the ball rolling. Kind of like how the faster folks get drug tested when they cross. If you get an award or KQ, you get proof that you did it for real without cheating. That's that kinda "extra" benefit I was talking about earlier. Or similarly, anti-drafting tech gets paid for by the fact it shows live tracking. You want your family and friends to see how aaaaaaaaaaaaaamazing you are? That's $50 extra so they can get detailed info on you. And then that money pays for the tech to monitor drafting on everybody else as well.

There's a good reason this is insufficient, particularly for the women's race (and it reminds me of a race I did with a notoriously bad women's pro a few years ago). If someone was looking to give a huge advantage to someone else, they could organize it so that the 'leader' didn't wear the tracker (or whatever) and then the 'follower' could invisibly draft with impunity. The pro woman I'm thinking of would have her significant other (husband?) bike in front of her for a big chunk of the race, and if he wasn't wearing a tracker and she was, that strategy would still be completely functional.
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Re: Anti Drafting Technology [spudone] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds like some enhancements to a current Garmin Edge. Add in some features & have a coded transmission sent to a central computer to upload the data & there you have it sorted out for the officials. However, you would have to keep moto bike officials, in case of a technical glitch and secondary referee input. There is no easy answer but some tech exists (military and civilian) that a could be drawn upon to develop a Kick Start campaign, or by a current device manufacturer. It's a matter of putting it all together in a package that is economical. Hey Elon Musk...use your accident warning tech to pick up another biker's draft box & time it, report it and send it to officials.
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Re: Anti Drafting Technology [spudone] [ In reply to ]
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spudone wrote:
Quote:
However the anti-drafting tech works, it needs to ask nothing extra of the racers, actually save money for the Wanda overlords, and have some cool extra features like live tracking come with it for it to get adopted. Otherwise it will just sit unused on the curb because of the perceived hassle.
The technology has to be tamper-resistant. To be successful, it has to a) measure draft box distance and time in and out, b) record violations, c) know which racers are involved - some unique id or bib # or whatever.

If an end user can easily prevent the recording of data, or block transmissions then you have a problem. If someone more technically inclined can alter the id, you have an even worse situation than no tech at all -- penalizing the wrong person.

I think it would also need some speed awareness. You don't want it recording a penalty on someone who racked their bike at an aid station to use the portapotty.

Along with tampering with the actual device, you have to make sure someone won't swap the device with someone else. Imagine if I know you are one of the top AG contenders who I trust would ride clean. I take your "anti draft sensors" from your bike and swap them with mine. I draft the hell out of anyone and everyone and you get all the penalties, and probably a DQ. Meanwhile, if you ride clean, then "my sensors" show up with no drafting violations.
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Re: Anti Drafting Technology [Jason N] [ In reply to ]
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Jason N wrote:
spudone wrote:

Quote:
However the anti-drafting tech works, it needs to ask nothing extra of the racers, actually save money for the Wanda overlords, and have some cool extra features like live tracking come with it for it to get adopted. Otherwise it will just sit unused on the curb because of the perceived hassle.
The technology has to be tamper-resistant. To be successful, it has to a) measure draft box distance and time in and out, b) record violations, c) know which racers are involved - some unique id or bib # or whatever.

If an end user can easily prevent the recording of data, or block transmissions then you have a problem. If someone more technically inclined can alter the id, you have an even worse situation than no tech at all -- penalizing the wrong person.

I think it would also need some speed awareness. You don't want it recording a penalty on someone who racked their bike at an aid station to use the portapotty.


Along with tampering with the actual device, you have to make sure someone won't swap the device with someone else. Imagine if I know you are one of the top AG contenders who I trust would ride clean. I take your "anti draft sensors" from your bike and swap them with mine. I draft the hell out of anyone and everyone and you get all the penalties, and probably a DQ. Meanwhile, if you ride clean, then "my sensors" show up with no drafting violations.
That's why I was thinking it would have to be integrated into your timing chip somehow. If you tamper with it, you screw up your own race placement also.
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Re: Anti Drafting Technology [riley86] [ In reply to ]
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We kinda have something similar with smart cruise control that slows you down and speeds you up when you're following another car. But somebody could just point the sensor off to the side and get nothing in front of them when they cheat. So instead, it would have to be a network of sensors that broadcast a signal and you could tell how far apart they are no matter which way they "point".

My phone can find my Garmin watch and vice versa and shows a distance graphic. Can't be that hard based on already existing tech.

And then you get no KQ or podium or points or whatever if you cheat. Light on top of device shows if you're drafting or not - that's your killer feature people would buy in to. Start drafting and a signal goes out to race marshals to see you on a map and zoom up to check out what's up with that pack.

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com
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Re: Anti Drafting Technology [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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I think this would need to be super cheap to be viable.

The other option would be to double or triple the number of officials which would be less than $1 per participant. You dont see WTC doing this.

I dont see WTC increasing costs to themselves anywhere near $50 for this issue. I also don't see them passing the cost to racers, if they pass price increases it should be more impactful to their bottom line. Do you think that a lot of racers are choosing not to race because of the drafting issue? I am guessing there is no upside in growth for WTC to implement this. My perception is that drafting is only an issue for FOP riders, maybe just the top 10%.

I think drafting is only a high pain point for people on this board, but for your average joe they don't feel it is an issue, they go out and try to race honestly but there are always a few issues here and there, but it does not keep them up at night.
Last edited by: endosch2: Jul 18, 18 17:01
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Re: Anti Drafting Technology [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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Typical GPS accuracy is only on the order of 5 meters so it's not really good enough for determining drafting unless you start talking about RTK GPS, which would be very cost prohibitive.
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Re: Anti Drafting Technology [riley86] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds Dangerous, how about course marshals that care? There are numerous rules that are violated by pros every race and nothing happens to them...but an AGer does it and the wrath of god penalty machine is out. Pros are supposed to be held to a standard that age groupers are not...holding age groupers to a higher standard is bollocks.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Anti Drafting Technology [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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Is it IM or the RD plus Time Officials (TOs) being lenient/lax. I've seen a lot of people get warnings.
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Re: Anti Drafting Technology [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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If it is an Ironman Race, the buck stops at the WTC.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Anti Drafting Technology [cobra_kai] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, I know... I've taught classes on GPS accuracy.

Anyway, I'm not talking about using GPS to sense distance between riders - that's too indirect which leads to inaccuracies. I'm talking about using Bluetooth or ANT or radar or some other broadcasting device that senses distance between things directly. And then you can use GPS on top of that to see where the issue is happening and who was actually in front or behind in general for the big picture part.

Say two bluetooth devices get too close for too long, using that same signal strength tech that helps my phone find my watch. That registers a red flag in the system. Then the system pulls in the GPS log for the previous 60 seconds to see who was creeping up on who and didn't pass. Bluetooth red flag + rider gaining on other rider's general GPS path for last minute + now going same speed with red flag still on = drafter busted.

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com
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Re: Anti Drafting Technology [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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What examples do you have that officials are more lax with pros than AG'ers?

I would think it's the opposite especially since they are officiated more heavily....

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Anti Drafting Technology [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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ZenTriBrett wrote:
Yes, I know... I've taught classes on GPS accuracy.

Anyway, I'm not talking about using GPS to sense distance between riders - that's too indirect which leads to inaccuracies. I'm talking about using Bluetooth or ANT or radar or some other broadcasting device that senses distance between things directly. And then you can use GPS on top of that to see where the issue is happening and who was actually in front or behind in general for the big picture part.

Say two bluetooth devices get too close for too long, using that same signal strength tech that helps my phone find my watch. That registers a red flag in the system. Then the system pulls in the GPS log for the previous 60 seconds to see who was creeping up on who and didn't pass. Bluetooth red flag + rider gaining on other rider's general GPS path for last minute + now going same speed with red flag still on = drafter busted.
Battery life becomes the major issue.

I was thinking something really simple: add hidden timing pads somewhere on the course.

You get pads to record a series of timestamps over a span of road that covers the legal time to make a pass (200m @ 22mph is about 20 seconds). Maybe one at the start, one mid, one at the end. Feed it to a computer. If two chips show up with timestamps less than the draft box at that speed, flag them. You'd keep this thing silent and hidden.

Since this would be a special zone known to the race director, he could even have a video setup to review decisions if people want to challenge them.

I think for keeping the thing secret, you wouldn't want the riders to stop. Just hand out the time penalty after the race is over, or hold them up in T2 if you want to let the runners have knowledge of where people currently stand.
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Re: Anti Drafting Technology [riley86] [ In reply to ]
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Drafting is a people problem.

You can't solve it with technology.

You need a people solution.

More draft marshals, and when they catch someone drafting make them run 1 additional mile for every draft penalty they got on the bike.

Bam. Solved.
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Re: Anti Drafting Technology [Dilbert] [ In reply to ]
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Surely a large part of the problem is simply having 2000 riders on the same section of road at the same time. If you're up at the pointy end then there are far fewer people per mile so far more space between riders so far less drafting, whether intentional or not. If you're in the MOP, where arguably it doesn't matter as much if you're drafting a bit or not, then there is nowhere to go to avoid being within the 12m draft zone of the rider in front..

I once did a 70.3 where you had the option of going in the first wave after the pros if you could go sub 5:30. The roads were soon pretty clear - it was great. Why can't they just do that all the time?
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Re: Anti Drafting Technology [riley86] [ In reply to ]
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riley86 wrote:

In my opinion, drafting in Ironman is a huge problem that has gotten worse and worse and has dampened my likelihood to continue racing Ironman in the future if something does not change.

It may not be a popular opinion here but I think you are way overstating the seriousness of the problem. This is a a hobbyist sport where some minority of the participants try to take an unfair advantage. Instead of Texas and Florida, go race at Wisconsin or Mont Tremblant and your problem will be largely solved. I've been in the sport for about 20 years and have done 50+ 140.6/70.3 events. I've seen lot's of overcrowded courses, but I've probably seen what I would call blatant paceline drafting less than 10 times.
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