Another reason to learn flip turns

Mar 16, 19 11:14

Post #1 of 69 (6920 views)

Workout density.

If you’re like me, workouts are typically time limited, not distance limited. I might have an hour to get in my workout, or 45 mins, or whatever the case may be.

Because flip turns are faster, I can get in more metres/yards in that allotted time. In a set of 30x100 that’s 90 turns. If each flip turn is 1 second faster than an open turn, thats 3 seconds saved each 100, which will probably let you drop your off time by 5 seconds. That’s an extra interval, or extra warmdown, or extra drills. Something that can make me faster in the end.

People love talking about marginal gains. There’s an easy one.

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Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 19 11:25

Post #2 of 69 (6885 views)

yup

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 19 11:29

Post #3 of 69 (6873 views)

But but but but but but but there's no wall in open water.

Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 19 12:05

Post #4 of 69 (6815 views)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCVWNuaWmYc&t=161s

This is the only video I could find in which someone actually did a comparison. It's almost as good as the "How To Swim" video someone postsed on here yesterday, only the guy doesn't wear Go Go boots.

What I came away with, from this, is that if you are a lousy flip turner and and equally terrible open turner, you lose half a body length to the lousy flip turner. So 3 meters on a 100. or in your 30 x 100 set, 90 turns, would be about 90m. The solution would be to go on 1:56 (instead of 2:00). Then you would do 31 x 100 and make up the 90m with a bonus of 10m. With an incentive to learn to flip with the slower guys ;0)

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 19 12:24

Post #5 of 69 (6767 views)

More than the added distance it is about the breath control work imo.

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [MBaier] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 19 12:26

Post #6 of 69 (6757 views)

Yeah, but that one gets mentioned pretty regularly. I’m really talking about the ability to get in more work in any given period of time, which is something that I think doesn’t get mentioned much,

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Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [MBaier] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 19 12:27

Post #7 of 69 (6757 views)

MBaier wrote:

More than the added distance it is about the breath control work imo.

Which has questionable value at best.

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 19 13:19

Post #8 of 69 (6637 views)

In a data driven sport where almost everything is measured I find it interesting that there is resistance to a simple technique improvement like flip turns. Most of us train in a pool environment where flip turns can increase efficiency and speed, and make the day to day grind more enjoyable.

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 19 14:05

Post #9 of 69 (6561 views)

JasoninHalifax wrote:

Yeah, but that one gets mentioned pretty regularly. I’m really talking about the ability to get in more work in any given period of time, which is something that I think doesn’t get mentioned much,

Pushing off the wall is underwater plyometric motion, so you're getting non-weight bearing strength work in, too, when flip-turning! And if you do a few underwater dolphin kicks you're working your core -- more strength-related core work.

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 19 14:10

Post #10 of 69 (6550 views)

Waiting for someone to chime in with the argument that if you’re pushing off the wall you aren’t swimming as much.... that’s always a fave

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 19 14:28

Post #11 of 69 (6508 views)

I spend 9ish months training for 3ish races. The vast majority of my time is spend in the pool as opposed to open water. I wish it was the other way, but it isn't. While yes, my training is dedicated to the outcome of a handful of races, I have to enjoy the training too. And flip turns make my training more enjoyable, and efficient.

This is a no-brainer.

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 19 14:38

Post #12 of 69 (6490 views)

Tri-Banter wrote:

But but but but but but but there's no wall in open water.

And an open turn is a more accurate representation of an OWS?

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [turningscrews] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 19 14:57

Post #13 of 69 (6475 views)

turningscrews wrote:

Tri-Banter wrote:

But but but but but but but there's no wall in open water.

And an open turn is a more accurate representation of an OWS?

Tri-banter was being sarcastic....

Or not. Hmmmmmm????

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Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [vijeet88] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 19 14:57

Post #14 of 69 (6475 views)

You mean it's a no-brainer for you or everyone?

The only pool based Tri I do does not allow flip turns (is that unusual?). So seems sensible for me to practice a specific race skill rather than the marginal gains mentioned here.

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [OddSlug] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 19 15:04

Post #15 of 69 (6456 views)

OddSlug wrote:

You mean it's a no-brainer for you or everyone?

The only pool based Tri I do does not allow flip turns (is that unusual?). So seems sensible for me to practice a specific race skill rather than the marginal gains mentioned here.

Out of how many races each year? Is that race your “big” race? How important I it that you have really good open turns vs being a better swimmer overall?

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Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: Mar 16, 19 15:04

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [OddSlug] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 19 15:06

Post #16 of 69 (6449 views)

Do they allow floatie pants?

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 19 15:16

Post #17 of 69 (6437 views)

JasoninHalifax wrote:

turningscrews wrote:

Tri-Banter wrote:

But but but but but but but there's no wall in open water.

And an open turn is a more accurate representation of an OWS?

Tri-banter was being sarcastic....

Or not. Hmmmmmm????

Geez, I hope so. Either way, you have to push off the wall. Anyone ever done mid pool starts? That stuff sucks! Mid pool 25s and 50s starting in a prone position are no picnick

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 19 16:02

Post #18 of 69 (6373 views)

Flip turns get you out of your comfort zone and builds confidence in your swimming ability.

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 19 16:02

Post #19 of 69 (6372 views)

not sure if this is the case for anyone else, but doing flip turns wears me down a lot quicker. my breathing rhythm gets interrupted as i have to hold my breathe for a lot longer approaching the wall, turning and taking a first stroke. i tend to do all my warmups and slow/technique swimming without flip turns and for any timed sets of course flip turn. but i will say, since learning flip turns and constantly improving on them, i've went from 1:40 to 1:24 100m time in just over 2 months.

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [casper3043] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 19 16:09

Post #20 of 69 (6354 views)

casper3043 wrote:

not sure if this is the case for anyone else, but doing flip turns wears me down a lot quicker. my breathing rhythm gets interrupted as i have to hold my breathe for a lot longer approaching the wall, turning and taking a first stroke. i tend to do all my warmups and slow/technique swimming without flip turns and for any timed sets of course flip turn. but i will say, since learning flip turns and constantly improving on them, i've went from 1:40 to 1:24 100m time in just over 2 months.

That’s true for most people initially, but The more you do them, the easier they get.

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Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 19 16:11

Post #21 of 69 (6346 views)

are you supplying the popcorn or should I get my own

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [Dr. Tigerchik] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 19 16:13

Post #22 of 69 (6343 views)

I made extra. Here you go....

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Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [OddSlug] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 19 16:44

Post #23 of 69 (6293 views)

OddSlug wrote:

You mean it's a no-brainer for you or everyone?

The only pool based Tri I do does not allow flip turns (is that unusual?). So seems sensible for me to practice a specific race skill rather than the marginal gains mentioned here.

I wasn't speaking about pool based tris. I was speaking about swimming in general, as a skill, and a component of triathlon.

It's also a completely complementary skill. You have to turn quite a few times over the course of swim practice. While the first handful of hours might be a bit sloppy, this is something that is easy to practice over and over again every time you train. This doesn't seem like an either or, rather you can do both. A tiny bit of initial effort is propelled with such minimal effort, probably 50+ times you train.

That being said, I'm going to swim off back to my corner.

Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [vijeet88] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 19 16:48

Post #24 of 69 (6287 views)

Swimmer: “when are we going to practice turns?”

Coach: “you just had 200 opportunities to practice your turns over the last 2 hours”

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Re: Another reason to learn flip turns [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Mar 16, 19 17:14

Post #25 of 69 (6251 views)

JasoninHalifax wrote:

Workout density.

If you’re like me, workouts are typically time limited, not distance limited. I might have an hour to get in my workout, or 45 mins, or whatever the case may be.

Because flip turns are faster, I can get in more metres/yards in that allotted time. In a set of 30x100 that’s 90 turns. If each flip turn is 1 second faster than an open turn, thats 3 seconds saved each 100, which will probably let you drop your off time by 5 seconds. That’s an extra interval, or extra warmdown, or extra drills. Something that can make me faster in the end.

People love talking about marginal gains. There’s an easy one.

Shut up and go back under your rock in the fish thread. This is a triathlon forum, don't your knowledge that none of us actually want to swim....it's just a stupid thing that Messick makes us do to qualify for our post race tattoo.

OK pink font optional...I am going back to the fish thread in case there are some tips on improving my aeroness on he bike (how ironic is that...every thread about reducing drag on the bike has 50000 views...in the fish tread you are talking MAYBE 500 views!!!)

Last edited by: devashish_paul: Mar 16, 19 19:45

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