I struggle....I have to believe in God as there are too many complexities to life that I think couldnt be random. Its religion I have a problem with. Fear and guilt are no way to live 70 years on this planet. Does anyone honestly think that one portion of humans are "right" and the other 4 billion on this planet are going to hell? As Tom stated, there are some beautiful things about other religions and beautiful people that follow them....on a side note...in my darkest hours....98% of my "Christian" friends bailed...the non judgemental, forgiving, non-hypocritical, non believers, I associate with stepped up and picked me up.

Remember Satans biggest dupe is to corrupt our Christianity, but still have us believe we are still Christians. Many of the Church leaders are so concerned that people might justify their salvation through works that they fail to stress the fact that we are called to do alot especially for the people we come across. I think the things you do are a thermometer of your walk and Christ said it best when He said many will come to me in the end and I'll say I knew you not. There sin was the failure to do what they were called to do. Fear and guilt, which is meant for respect and contrition are also corrupted by the S man to give people ugly lives. As a last note, S man will work overtime on the beleivers as that's the crew he needs, so it shouldn't be a shock to see those you think holy as anything more than human. Off the pulpit.

"Who is atheist? Not wondering or kinda don't get all of it. Who is flat out saying no to gods and after lives?

Just wanted to know if I had company."

I'm with ya. I'd rather not get into a debate about religion though. My beliefs are my own and I am comfortable with that.

Don

A question or two, and the purpose of this is not to try to convince you that you're wrong and I'm right or anything like that. It's just that I don't think I've ever corresponded with a full-fledged atheist before. I've known people who said they were atheists because they thought it was cool, but they really didn't believe that way. So here goes:

What would make you totally deny the existence of any god whatsoever? How did you reach that conclusion, i.e. what evidence do you cite as being proof that no god exists at all?

Again, not trying to flame, just understand.

RP

I swear there ain't no heaven and I pray there ain't no Hell. But I'll never know by livin', only my dyin' will tell. - Laura Nyro

Larry

Hmm, religious thread. Potentially inflammatory. OK, I'll bite.

I don't "believe" in God, no more than I "believe" in gravity. It isn't a matter of "belief". The use of the vernacular "belief" infers some opportunity for doubt, a reliance on "faith" or that the subject of the "belief" is somehow less than reality.

Every morning the sun comes up. If I am a bad person bad things happen to me. If I am a good person that energy or experience is returned to me.

That is the natural "order". That means there is a "God". It isn't a matter of belief. Doubt it all you want- the sun is coming up tomorrow. It's a fact. It isn't a matter of belief.

In the frailty of human experience we, very superficially, search for meaning to things that we cannot explain. Failing those explanations we invent elaborate fables. The fables become ancient and revered and soon become "The Way".

That tends to be the origins of highly ritualized religions, rooted in a very human need to explain the unexplainable.

But the fact remains, there is a universal order: Mathematics always works, gravity always works, the sun always goes up and comes down and quantum physics shows us there is indeed a pattern to all of existence.

I call that pattern, that universal order God. Ominipotent and omniscient and omnipresent. Learn to walk with it and you will experience grace. Try to oppose it and you will life in struggle. Ignore it and I'm not certain what the result will be.

As for life after death, I don't know. I haven't been dead and I am much too concerned about life to worry about it. I, for one, hope the lights just go out. I'm tired and I often don't want to do this anymore. For my friends departed I like to foster some sentimental and romantic superstition that their "spirit lives on". It hurts too much to think otherwise. Since Isaac Asimov said, "WE each craft our own reality" and I believe that is true, then my reality is that my dead friends guide and influence my decisions in my life- and in that, they are manifested as living after death through this very tangible influence.

In case anyone cared.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

The idea of being an atheist because it's "cool" is, in my view, really dumb.

My own atheism (and I'm not militant about it) stems from philosophical grounds. You wonder how one can know one way or the other in the absence of evidence. In order to answer that query, one must first determine the nature of knowledge and the possible grounds for knowledge. That is the province of the branch of philosophy known as epistemology, which is far too complex to address adequately in a setting like this forum. I include a rather lengthy exposition of this complex subject in my website (see below), which I invite anyone to work through--if one is interested in valid logical reasoning, rather than being cool.

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Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.

"What would make you totally deny the existence of any god whatsoever? How did you reach that conclusion, i.e. what evidence do you cite as being proof that no god exists at all?"

Robert, I will bite despite the limitations of going over such a debate in the context of a forum. The way I look at it is not that I have any evidence that there is no god at all, but that I don't have any evidence that there is one. In other words, I won't believe in God until I see a piece of evidence that convinces me. Does that make sense?

For all intents and purposes I am an atheist. However if I am truly honest with myself I have to say that I am agnostic, because I don't KNOW if there is/isn't a god nor do I believe that anybody is possible of KNOWING.

Tom D - I don't follow your logic. Just because the sun rises and sets every day and an unsupported object falls to the ground that does not translate into the existence of a supreme being. Also, there are plenty of people who lead "good" lives yet have terrible things happen to them and vice versa, there are some real creeps who just seem to get all the breaks.

And to assert that all those who oppose god will struggle in life is completely unfounded. There are plenty examples of atheists who lead healthy, happy and fulfilled lives. I think I am living proof of that, and there appear to be several atheists within this community who would probably disagree with your assertion as well as those listed here: http://www.celebatheists.com/

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Dan Hollingsworth

Nobody grows old by merely living a number of years. People grow old only by deserting their ideals. Years may wrinkle the skin, but to give up interest wrinkles the soul." - Douglas MacArthur

"I am agnostic, because I don't KNOW if there is/isn't a god "

Took the words right out of my mouth.

I agree this could be quite the heated debate. As for myself I would have to be classified as "agnostic."

There are a number of arguements that could be posed in favor or against the existance of a god.

One must study the evolution of religion and then I feel come to the conclusion that it is used to explain the unexplainable. We fear what we don't know or understand so when the sky "rumbles" there must be a god causing it. If the volcanoe erupts we need to appease the god so it doensnt do so again etc...

The "prime mover" theory is about the only arguement for the existance of a god that I could see subscribing to. "He got the ball rolling and then just stood back and let it roll with out intervening."

Anyway, this is just a very brief .02 worth. I could go on all day about it.

What if you fail to recognize the evidence? Just curious as to what would constitute evidence. Perhaps your standing on it.

That was very eloquently stated, and quite beautiful in its own right. However, I respectfully disagree. God is much, much more than the natural order of things. And no one has "invented" a fable that adequately explains who God is. About the best explanation I can come up with is what God said to Moses when the prophet asked who was speaking to him through the burning bush. God said simply, "I am." That speaks volumes to me. Before the world was formed, God is. When the world ends, God is. God transcends time, and has no limits placed upon Him whatsoever. Humans are limited by time and space, but God is not. He is everywhere, He knows all things, He sees all things. He, quite simply, is.

To call God the natural order of things limits Him greatly. God instituted the natural order, I believe (and the Bible says this in Psalms), as evidence that He exists. How can you not look at the complexity of the natural world and not see God's hand in it? Are we to believe that the world just happened and the natural laws/order simply evolved into what we have today? To me, that takes more faith than believing that an eternal God created the earth and all the things on it.

It does take faith to accept the existence of God. We've never seen God. I don't even know where heaven or hell are. I've never seen them. There are all kinds of stories out there to confuse and complicate things. You can find people at every college and university who think they have an answer to the existence of God and how things came to be, some of which sound very logical and, on the surface, make sense.

But there is just too much going on to deny God. To live a life on this earth and expect this to be the best that it's going get is a hopeless way to live. My life could be snuffed out in a moment. I hope this isn't all there is. Life is too meaningless, too temporary. Look at the endless cycles of life -- we are born, we grow, we work, we die. Then someone else is born, they grow, they work, they die, and the cycle repeats itself. God provides meaning, a purpose, a real direction for our lives. He offers hope, love and peace of mind.

We do tend to invent things to explain the unexplainable. But some things we regard as unexplainable are very explainable, but we don't choose to accept the explanation. For example, all civilizations have a flood story. How can that be? Could it be that a great flood actually happened? I would say yes.

As for being more concerned with living, I understand that completely. However, I also believe that we should give some thought to what happens after we die. After all, it's not like we're going to escape it, and it makes sense to be prepared (whatever your definition of "prepared" is; mine is faith in Christ). You are correct in saying that the sun will come up tomorrow. But it might not come up on you. Or me. Or anyone else on this forum. We have all experienced the sudden, tragic death of a friend or loved one. We are not immune from the same destiny.

Life is just too short and too fragile for there not to be something else beyond this life.

RP

I don't mind talking epistomology here actually.
it is truly a fascinating subject (particularly for me as I am a scientist)...
All open if anyone is willing to discuss Feyerabend, hume, kuhn or my favorite, Karl Popper.

I am also an atheist, and I will attempt a short response to your query.

Just as an explanation so that you don't just think that I am one of those people who are just atheitsts because it's "cool", I have an honours degree in philosophy and my atheism is a direct result of my own examination of a variety of belief systems and the adoption of the one which I believe provides the most reasonable and defensible explanation of the world as we experience it (my philosophical study centred more on metaphysics and moral theory than epistemology, but I am familiar enough with the leading epistemologists to be able to discuss the subject at some length).

First, let me say that you asking me to justify my athiesm is similar to me asking you to justify your belief in God, and the answers we get and give are likely to be non-sensical to anyone with the opposite point of view.

However, if we look at anthropological history we see that every culture that we know of has used some form of story, legend, religion to explain the things it does not understand. Religion, and the belief in God, is simply the natural extension of the human desire to have an explanation for the things we do not understand. It is the story we create in order to make the world make sense. I would rather admit that I cannot comprehend everything in this world (even if there is a "natural order" as shown by quantum physics) than believe in a being that is the product of human fear of that which we do not understand.

I also believe that religion is the "opiate of the masses" and has been used since the dawn of time by those in power to control the behaviour of the societies which they govern. It is much more effective to threaten a person with eternal damnation in order to enforce a certain standard of behaviour than it is to threaten corporal punishment.

Sorry for the long post, and please understand that I'm not being flippant or dismissive. Your beliefs are your own, and you are as entitled to yours as I am to mine.

Mr. Tibbs, I'm with you.

Mikel

"I call that pattern, that universal order God. Ominipotent and omniscient and omnipresent. Learn to walk with it and you will experience grace. Try to oppose it and you will life in struggle. Ignore it and I'm not certain what the result will be."

you sound like a humanist. to be honest, i'm not sure exactly what the word "humanist" means, but this is the impression that i've gotten. kurt vonnegut, who lectured at my university on wednesday, gave a pretty decent description:

"i'm a humanist, which means i don't believe in heaven or hell. but i do live a moral life, and i believe that all humans should live moral lives as best they can"

bear in mind, that was COMPLETELY paraphrased. however, i think the message is clear. personally, i like it. seems to me that you might too. i highly recommend you read his works, if you haven't already.

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some other good quotes from his lecture:

"My son says 'the purpose of life is to help each other get through this thing, whatever it is' ... the purpose of life is to fart around, and don't let anyone tell you any different"

"The only proof there ever was that God exists is music"

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http://www.theninjadon.blogspot.com

"The bicycle riders drank much wine, and were burned and browned by the sun. They did not take the race seriously except among themselves." -- Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises

NOTE TO THE READER- I have no idea how my fonts got all screwed up. I missed keyed somewhere and BOOM! it italics. I try to fix it and BOOM it's bold. So just laugh at me and read as normal. I have no time to rewrite.



I started this post for the simple reason I know very very very few atheist. As you so correctly put it..."I've known people who said they were atheists because they thought it was cool, but they really didn't believe that way."

I talk to a ton of people who think they are atheist but 2 minutes into the conversation it turns out they are agnostic or a deist like Tom. Another thing I see are a lot of atheist who are very out spoken against religion are really deep down believers who are pissed off with the church or thier idea of god and are just venting.

I can't prove that something doesn't exist. You can't prove a negative. So why do I not believe? My idea of logic, again my idea. The main thing being is if there is a god where is he? Why is he absent other than what we feel? Why would he leave his teachings to man? A known liar and cheat. No sacred book makes any sense to me and I don't believe in miracles.



Look at it this way. A cave man sits on a rock and looks all around him. He sees how the fur keeps him warm. How fire cooks his food, how the stone on his spear can be made sharp enough to hunt and cut meat, how his boast floats on the water. How everything on this Earth seems custom fit to him. It's like it was made for him. So he is in a place made from him but who made it? Not Ug next door but someone really powerful. Someone who does not want to be seen. So you got an unseen powerful source making stuff for ya. So your accept that because you have no evidence other wise. So we began to worship.

Another way to put it. There is a whole in the street. It rains and fills the hole. YOu go up to the puddle and ask if it likes it's hole. I might say "I love this hole it fits me perfect. I was made just for me." As the sunshine however the puddle starts to evaporate. It gets smaller and smaller. It might realize that it is temporary and the hole is permanent. To me our very very very limited knowledge of science is the sunshine. As we learn more we can start to understand that the world was not made for us but we where made for the world.

I honsetly didn't start a this thread to flame. Anyone who has read my limited postings on faith should understand that. Read my posts about swearing. I just don't know a lot of people like me. Just wondering.

If anyone want to chew the fat about it more let me know. I don't bite and I don't change minds. I just figure shit out as best I can.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

First off i'm jewish, but I don't really believe in any god. I do believe some magnificiants things happened thru out history (like the flood maybe), but the whole creation theory - gemme a break. The world created 5000 years ago? blah. Have some common sense people.

I'd have to say I am agnostic. I think the great thing would be is if Christianity were correct. Would it not be great if all we had to do is believe a set of beliefs and we would spend eternity in paradise. Who wouldn't want that deal. I want it to be true but I don't believe it is. However as others have posted, I marvel at the complexity of DNA, a 3 trillion cell organism and the vastness of a universe that continues to expand and I wonder if there is god. If there is a god she/he/it certainly doesn't seem to give a flip about any one of us or it would not let little girls get raped and killed in Florida. So summing up, I want there to be a god but don't believe there is a god.

David

Hmmm, a supreme being? OK, well- here's my slant. HAving read tritoronto's post on this thread, as well as the others, there is some very interesting commentary. Also, this entire thread is thought provoking. I'm enjoying it.

tritoronto points, accurately too I believe, to the origin of religion(s). Going back into the chronology of mankind a need arose for answers as our thinking became more complex and societies became more sophisticated. More answers were needed and they needed to be more finite. Clearly, a "book of rules" needed to be crafted. Different geographic regions gave birth to their own variety- many with interesting and logical similarities.

Now, many people grasp firmly to the highly ritualized beliefs ascribed to a specific belief system. They "believe" it so firmly, so strongly, it transcends belief and becomes their reality. It is a very tangible reality that directly influences many, if not every, decision they make thus directly affecting their behavior thus causing what they believe to become tangible in the form of that behavior.

So it is real to them.

Here's where I take a left turn on all of it. The first time I travelled the world it was as a soldier. I learned that wars fought over money, land, politics are usually resolvable. Wars fought over religion are completely unresolvable. Some religions, or a self-serving perversion of them, make provisions for the justification of murder and all manner of wanton disregard for human life simply to defend the "God given" set of beliefs the assailant is divinely mandated to defend and propogate. If he/she dies, a place in heaven is guaranteed. Several religions feature some version of this belief system.

These people are anti-societal and dangerous. Often, the fervor of their beliefs creates an inability or unwillingness to acknowledge the validity of any other belief system. They cannot co-exist. In fact, it is a part of their dogma to convert others to their "way". If they cannot be converted, they may be tolerated. If they cannot be tolerated, "God" mandates they be eliminated for betterment of all.

Nearly every religion has, at one point or another throughout history, to a greater or lesser degree, been subject to this mindset.

My contention is "organized", ritualized religion does bring people together and provide a workable "moral compass" for some, but the walls of this structure also form a barrier of understanding from others. Therein lies the problem. It is a philosophy that recognizes more differences than similarities. It can become polarized and confrontational- as will be the replies to this post if anyone bothers to read this far.

Now, let us suppose for a moment, that God is the natural order of things. Commanding all we understand and do not understand from an utterly detached position and bestowing upon us the tools with which to manage our life from the moment of birth forward.

While this concept of God is somewhat less structured than a highly defined, ritualized belief system that includes a document like The Bible, The Koran, or the Tao de Ching- it is also lacking the attendant distinctions. And the attendant conflicts. It still respects God as the "Supreme Being", although acknowledging that God is far above a mere being- in fact, something much larger that pervades everything and everybody- living or inanimate.

And finally, in his book "The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are" Alan Watts proposes a concept of "pantheism" where, as I understand it (admittedly rudimentary) God is in all of us, therefore we must treat each others as Gods, the earth as a God, ourselves as a God or piece of God.

Given this belief system suddenly the world is a wonderous place, filled with opportunity and benevolence. Free from distinction and segregation. Race, religion, indeed, even species are erased. We are truly all one- interdependant. Our armies are converted from organizations trained to kill and destroy to organizations trained to build and educate and help. Borders vanish, and, just as there really is no "day" and "night" since it is always daytime somewhere and nighttime somewhere else, we all revel in our similarities- not our distinctions- all in God's glory. Quite fantastic (and fanciful) vision.

That's kinda how I see it.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Triathlon.....swim....bike....run...in case everyone forgot. This issue (and other non tri issues) only serve to fuel the fire of people who say "This forum is beginning to suck".... It's not in IMO but it would be nice if we stuck to the topic.

As I stated and described in the Who is a Christian poll, I am an atheist. I think it works for some people. Personally, I'd need some serious proof, like God appearing in the flesh performing amazing miracles in front of my eyes.

I enjoyed reading parts of the bible, but to me it is like reading Greek, Norse, or Egyptian mythology. I love all of that stuff. It is facinating to read how diferent cultures seek to explain the intricacies of life.

Maybe I'm an an agnostic, as I don't completely rule out the possibility, though I do doubt it. At any rate if there is a supreme being out there I don't think it's anything like what is described in the Bible or the Koran, etc...

I know this doesn't answer the original question, but...

My gripe with Christianity is the whole Christ bit. My mom and I argue over this all the time. The general premise of Christianity, as I understand it, is: you can lead a good life, treat others well, golden rule kind of thing, and essentially, follow the ten commandments, BUT...if you don't believe that Christ died for your sins, you are going to hell.

I can't say I'm an atheist - probably more of an agnostic - but Christianity makes me bristle because of this one thing. The general teachings, I agree with.

That said - I have a huge respect for anyone who CAN take that leap of faith, and I am not saying this to be negative about anyone's choices or beliefs. It's just a leap of faith I have never been able to take...that this one story is what makes or breaks your afterlife, if there is one.

sheri

I tried to restain myself but I just can't....

Obviously, if there is no God, there can be no Creation.

So, to explain the origin of the universe, the Earth, and life we have the Big Bang and evolution. The theory here is that some random event, without cause created the universe out of nothing. Or if there was something before, some (again random) event caused that to explode and our solar system and our planetary system was formed out of the chaos.

So now, you have Earth full of gases, chemicals, and stuff. Again, through time, chance, and random processes some elements get together and turn into a living thing. Over time that living thing evolves and becomes more complex all through time, chance and random processes. This is the theory of evolution and everyone with a scientific mind and any common sense must accept the proof that this is how it all happened. You can prove that this is the case.

We can dispell this theory quite simply. You don't even have to look to the Bible for answers, science refutes this itself. Everything in the universe tends toward chaos. Try this simple experiment. Take red, white, and blue confetti and throw it into the air. It lands in a random patter that is not likely to repeat. Keep doing this over and over and over again. When does the confetti arrange itself into the shape of the American flag? The odds are astronomical that this could ever happen. Now consider how much evolution, through time, chance and random processes it would take to go from a single cell, simple organism into a modern human being. You'd be more likely to arrange the confetti into the shape of the flag thousands of times.

It doesn't take much "common sense" to see that this is completely ridiculous. (And, yes, I went to public school where evolution is taught as "fact", complete with transitional forms, ape-man, and fish that turn into birds.)

Evolution: fast forward to where we evolved from primates. The idea is that we are so similar in every way that we MUST have evolved to better adapt to our environment. OK, let's say you build a bridge. It works well and gets you where you need to go. You look at it, and "it is good". Now you want to build another bridge. You certainly wouldn't abandon everything from the first design but you would likely incorporate what you learned before into your new design. So your new bridge looks a great deal like the other one only with some improvements.

Now, which seems more likely? We evolved from simple, single cell organisms that appeared out of nothing or we are the product of intelligent design of a Creator who is above all that is created (everything).

Sure, all of this is just theory and it can never really be proven because the only real proof would require either someone to have been there to witness it or for it to happen again, repeatedly.

You say it takes a lot of faith to believe in God. Ok, granted. How much faith does it take to believe in evolution?

The biggest reason people don't want to believe in creation is because they don't want to be accountable to the Creator. If there is a Creator (God) than you can't just do whatever you want.