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Another Tubie squestion: Glue - which kind and why not Fasttack?
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I've read multiple opinions on the pros and cons of using 3M Fast Tack including Tom's in the other tubular thread.

I bought my 1st set of tubular wheels almost two yrs ago at InsideOut Sports and had 3M Fasttack recommended, as well as leaving about a 4 inch section, opposite valve stem sans glue to facilitiate removal.

I put two coats on both tire and rim before mounting. I inspect wheels every time I use them - they're also Rev-Xs so inspection is only common sense in my mind.

I've had to change two tires, one side-wall puncture from a piece of bailing wire, and one leaky valve stem discovered at a 1/2 IM.

Am I setting myself up for high-speed-roll failure?

what's the dealio????

Jim
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Re: Another Tubie squestion: Glue - which kind and why not Fasttack? [rgr195] [ In reply to ]
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Well, basically, it says right on the Fasttack tube "Only for intended use." and "Use only for automotive trim: No other uses."

Now, me being a military guy, what part of that do people not understand. I can just see some guy lying on the pavement going, "What just happened!?!".

Anecdotally, I have been told all manner of stories about why it should and should not be used. One person claimed the carrying agent disolved the cement that held some tubular's base tape on (?).

My question is: With good tubular cement such as Continental and Panaracer available, specifically intended for that purpose and labelled as such, why would you use anything else?

Sometimes, this IS rocket science.

In my book, four inches is an enormous patch to leave unglued for tire removal in the event of a flat. One inch is plenty.

I will say the guys at Inside OUt Sports do know their stuff. They are a fine retailer with an excellent reputation and proven technical knowledge.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: Another Tubie squestion: Glue - which kind and why not Fasttack? [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Tom.

So now that you have me convined to rip the tires off and remount.

Any ideas how to remove all the old glue on the tire?

Also being an Army dude you can relate to " I don't care what the book says just use this......" :-)

ATW,

Jim
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Re: Another Tubie squestion: Glue - which kind and why not Fasttack? [rgr195] [ In reply to ]
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I use Conti glue with success.

As for Fastack -- just about every tire and wheel maker and expert tire-gluer-onner will rail against the use of Fastack. It's easy to use, so maybe that's why some people use it. But gee -- why the heck would somebody roll the dice with their life and use a glue that the tire company says you should NEVER, EVER use?

BTW -- 3M says the same thing.
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Re: Another Tubie squestion: Glue - which kind and why not Fasttack? [Julian] [ In reply to ]
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What about the tufo tape? I've never used tubulars, but am consideing them. does the stuff work? Does it facilitate tire changes?

_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.
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FASTTACK AND CONTI [ In reply to ]
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 Contis and fasttack do not work at all together. The fasttack will disolve the glue between the base tape and tire on Contis. Bad plan. Trackies like fasttack as you can glue a tire on and a few min later ride. I think for tridudes the factory adhesive is best as it is tacky after you pull the flat one off.
The Tufo sticky tape works well and the super tape works almost too well. Good enough for the cyclocrossers riding in the mud with 35 psi and the trackies on the dry with 200 psi. It is real hard to change a flat with Tufo tape on. G
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Re: Another Tubie squestion: Glue - which kind and why not Fasttack? [rgr195] [ In reply to ]
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Tom's right, sometimes it is rocket science. Here are some links to some experiments conducted by the Barnett Bicycle institute by Calvin S. Howat, PhD., Chemical and Petroleum engineering. It is the only place I've seen on the web that provides hard statistical evidence about the **simulated** amount of force required for roll-off or removal of a tire and the variance between various glues. As you can see Vittoria Mastik and Conti are at the top and Fasttack near the bottom. Also includes good instructions for mounting.



http://www.engr.ukans.edu/~ktl/bicycle/Cusa1.pdf

http://www.bsn.com/...rticles/cements.html



sweet
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Re: Another Tubie squestion: Glue - which kind and why not Fasttack? [Sweet] [ In reply to ]
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This awesome! Thanks! Absolutely awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: Another Tubie squestion: Glue - which kind and why not Fasttack? [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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In order to remove glue I used paint striper which is used to remove paint from wood, get it at the hardware store. Just slap it over the old glue with a brush, wait a few minutes and then just scrape the old glue off. Comes out very easily.
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Re: Another Tubie squestion: Glue - which kind and why not Fasttack? [KingK] [ In reply to ]
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I'm tracking on removing glue from the rims. It's taking the glue of the tire that I'm wonderign about. Are you using stripper on just the rims. Not sure what it will do to a tire.

Jim
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Re: Another Tubie squestion: Glue - which kind and why not Fasttack? [rgr195] [ In reply to ]
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I used it on the rim (HED 3), I wouldn't use it on the tire, it is strong stuff and I wouldn't be surprised if it ate the cotton casing of the tire up.
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Re: Another Tubie squestion: Glue - which kind and why not Fasttack? [KingK] [ In reply to ]
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yah that's what I thought too. Looks like Baby need a new pair of shoes... I mean tires....
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Re: Another Tubie squestion: Glue - which kind and why not Fasttack? [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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again tom you are sort of right and sort of wrong- 3m doesn't want to get sued that's why they don't recommend fasttack for glueing tubulars. they used to though. they even sponsered a road racing team and had some deal with continental for a while....fast tack isn't the best stuff to use with some cotton or silk tubulars...i know it corrodes the glue andre dugast uses for example. however it is the best stuff in the world for contis and vittorias.

jerk

http://www.echelonbicycles.com
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Re: Another Tubie squestion: Glue - which kind and why not Fasttack? [rgr195] [ In reply to ]
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Taken from the above PDF

"If adhesive spreads to the side-walls of the tire, leave it alone: do not remove it as any solvant which could remove the adhesive will attach the adhesive holding the base tape to the tire casting."



"your horse is too high" - tigerchik
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Re: Another Tubie squestion: Glue - which kind and why not Fasttack? [jerk] [ In reply to ]
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however it is the best stuff in the world for contis and vittorias.
Not according to the rolloff tests performed per the links above. It seems to be nearly the worst choice one can make.
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Re: Another Tubie squestion: Glue - which kind and why not Fasttack? [LarryCalifornia] [ In reply to ]
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that's what I'm trying to figure out. I think Acetone will do more harm than good to tire casing. plus I'm haviong to remove Fasttack to reglue wioth Conti - I just ordered 3 tubes from performance.
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Re: Another Tubie squestion: Glue - which kind and why not Fasttack? [rgr195] [ In reply to ]
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Fasttack user for many years. I'm a man but I can change if I have to I guess !! Thanks for learnin me about the glues.

The Dirtball EX fasttack snifer
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Re: Another Tubie squestion: Glue - which kind and why not Fasttack? [dirtball!] [ In reply to ]
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Ditto. Have used nothing but Fasttack for years now, with no problems whatsoever.

That said, I don't ride any really technical races courses (i.e.: fast descents with plenty of cornering and braking), where separation due to overheating could be a problem.

Race them on the flats, and at fairly high pressure -- so maybe ANY glue is pretty much superfluous. But they're awful hard to strip off when swapping due to tread wear, so they seem pretty damned tight to me...
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Re: Another Tubie squestion: Glue - which kind and why not Fasttack? [Sweet] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
As you can see Vittoria Mastik and Conti are at the top and Fasttack near the bottom.


Sweet -- thanks for the .pdf link, which is very useful.

However, I don't see what you see as regards Fast Tack being "near the bottom" of the seven glues tested.

Looks to me as though it's right in the middle of the pack, with 3 testing better, and 3 testing worse.

On hard anodized rims, Fast Tack tests 4th of the 7 on Conti 250s, and places 4th of 7 on Vittoria Corsa CX's as well. Also 4th of 7 in the "Adhesion Performance" chart, using the "Standard" calculus.

So maybe not great, but hardly a disaster. And probably OK for flat TT's (if not for crits or courses with lots of curvy descents).

Jerk: thanks for the tip as regards not using Fast Tack on cotton or silk tubulars -- and more specifically, its negative interaction with Dugasts. Have two Dugasts currently ordered, and will use another option when they arrive -- they're pricey as you know, so your comment is very much appreciated in saving me possible trouble with them. Thanks.
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Re: Another Tubie squestion: Glue - which kind and why not Fasttack? [alpedhuez] [ In reply to ]
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One other thing to consider is whether the glue dries hard or whether it stays sticky. Fast Tack stays sticky which would seem to make it a better choice if you have a flat and have to throw on a spare tire. I wouldn't have much faith in the hard glues (red?) to stay tacky enough to hold the spare tire on very well.

At any rate, it looks like Fast Tack scored in about the middle of the tests. Some of the glues bonded better than did the glue that holds on the base tape. That doesn't hurt anything I guess, but you really have to consider the weakest link in the chain. It doesn't much matter if one glue is twice as strong as Fast Tack if the tire base tape peels off at a lower stress level.
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