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Another "I went to the Tunnel" Thread.....
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Whats up guys and gals,

Well I made a trip down to A2 and came away faster, as is my experience from testing; however, had I run blind with what I had chosen that would still be the case. Nevertheless, knowing allows me to not worry about the aero aspect of my training and just sight in on the one remaining pillar to get as fast as I can this season, which is producing more watts. Also, we had some interesting quarks that i’ll touch on here, but dive deeper into during an upcoming YouTube live with DesertDude.

Onto the testing. I had a few threads leading up to this round of testing where I touched on some things I wanted to sort out. One was my position in macro. I had come up quite a bit in pad stack and learned to shrug my shoulders much better. If you would like the back story I covered that in this Thread. The second was whether to use gloves for Time Trial’ing or to go bare hands and that was covered in this Thread. The last and the one that had a lot of interest for folks was the benefit of high hands, which got a lot of views and conversation here. Anyhow, onto the good stuff.

Position

Final 2014 CdA(m2) 0.198 @0º







Initial 2019 CdA(m2) 0.197 @0º







So, what may look like on the surface as a slower position is actually working pretty well for me. Now, would I be more aero in the lower position? Maybe. Two caveats to that, though. My pads cannot be as narrow in the lowest stack position as they are now and I have a hell of a time making good power consistently when that low. I had raced a middle ground pad Y (Pretty close to my current position) the last couple of years, but that too has become untenable in terms of power production.

Slammed (most comparable to my 2014 tunnel position):



Middle Ground:



Yes I made some equipment changes, which makes this not a true apples to apples. But I came up more than 6cm from 2014. And if making equipment changes allows me to keep my CdA(m2) close while improving power production, then that is a win-win.

High Hands



While I had time left to test this out, two things were working against me: a winter storm that would make travel a mess and money. I chose not to worry about this, but I promise it will be a topic Brian and I cover if you so chose to listen/watch.

Gloves

Gloves proved to be slower at all angles tested (data posted below).

The other takeaways

These I hadn’t started a recent thread on: helmets are little to no difference maker for me (probably a few reasons for that, but this post is already long enough); Velotoez had a really remarkable difference at 2.5º, but nothing at 0º and 5º; Trip socks….yeah they’re better than socks (duh).

Data













If you would like to see any images from these runs just ask and I shall comply. ;)

Oh, and the link to the Live if you want to get some more direct interaction and or listen to DesertDude and I analyze the data and add in our conjecture:



Legend
BP3 – Castelli Body Paint 3
NP – NoPinz Trip Suit
SWTT – S-Works TT Helmet
Aerohead – Giro Aerohead
Selector – Giro Selector
WASP – Lazer WASP Long Tail
Gloves – AeroCoach Speed Attack Gloves
Trip Socks – NoPinz Trip Socks
Velotoez – Velotoez Shoe only covers

Testing Protocol

- Everything was tested at 0º, 2.5º, and 5º
- BP3 w/POC original baseline (no gloves, Merino socks, no shoe covers)
- NP w/POC new baseline (no gloves, Merino socks, no shoe covers)
- S-works w/NP (no gloves, Merino socks, no shoe covers)
- Aerohead w/NP (no gloves, Merino socks, no shoe covers)
- Selector w/NP (no gloves, Merino socks, no shoe covers)
- WASP w/NP (no gloves, Merino socks, no shoe covers)
- NP w/POC and Gloves (Merino socks, no shoe covers)
- NP w/POC and trip socks (no gloves, no shoe covers)
- NP w/POC, Trip socks, and Shoe covers (no gloves)

My YouTubes

Last edited by: LAI: Feb 24, 19 13:24
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Re: Another I went to the Tunnel Thread..... [LAI] [ In reply to ]
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Love how you kept it concise...can’t wait for the live show!
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Re: Another I went to the Tunnel Thread..... [LAI] [ In reply to ]
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Nice write up. You're not alone in finding an "equally aero" higher position. When I started field testing years ago went as low and narrow as I could. Then I went a bit longer. Then a bit higher. Then a bit higher with my hands higher. You get the picture. My A -> B looks very similar to yours and for me there was another practical consideration: forward visibility.
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Re: Another I went to the Tunnel Thread..... [LAI] [ In reply to ]
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Very cool. Yep, you're Dialled In (tm). Now time to start brewing a big vat of wattage cheese for race day.










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Re: Another I went to the Tunnel Thread..... [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
Very cool. Yep, you're Dialled In (tm)
. Now time to start brewing a big vat of wattage cheese for race day.



I have lots of time for that. Both my A races are in August and a week apart. Perfect storm there.


greenplease wrote:
Nice write up. You're not alone in finding an "equally aero" higher position. When I started field testing years ago went as low and narrow as I could. Then I went a bit longer. Then a bit higher. Then a bit higher with my hands higher. You get the picture. My A -> B looks very similar to yours and for me there was another practical consideration: forward visibility.


Power production aside, I am curious what a CdA(m2) would look like if I could take this same position and drop it back down to 525 Pad Y(currently 2 ticks under 600mm). The problem is I am unable to get the same reach or the same elbow spacing when I mount the pads on the bar. Then there is the clusterfudge of extensions mounted below the bar as well as that dirty area right at the stem with all that mess mounted there. I tend to think that cockpit separation from the bar is faster with rider on than a similar slammed setup even if you are adding material to make it happen.

dhoose wrote:
Love how you kept it concise...can’t wait for the live show!



This is pink, right? I was putting it together and thinking, damn this is long, but I could easily double or triple it. The live should be interesting if my phone conversation with Brian on Friday was any indication.

My YouTubes

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Re: Another "I went to the Tunnel" Thread..... [LAI] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for sharing this. I love threads like this.

What gloves did you test?
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Re: Another "I went to the Tunnel" Thread..... [FatandSlow] [ In reply to ]
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I do too! The gloves are the AeroCoach deals. I really wanted them to be faster as they look the part, but it wasn't meant to be. Maybe for someone else it's another story or perhaps they simply are willing to give up a bit to make sure they have the grip they need when they need it.

Even matched the color scheme I had going.



My YouTubes

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Re: Another "I went to the Tunnel" Thread..... [LAI] [ In reply to ]
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Will you now follow up with any velidromes or Chung method testing?
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Re: Another "I went to the Tunnel" Thread..... [LAI] [ In reply to ]
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Other than the helmet I think your color scheme was the most on point of anyone tested!

looking forward to this as most people aren't transparent with their data nor do they want us to put it all out there for everyone to see.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Another "I went to the Tunnel" Thread..... [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Fishbum wrote:
Will you now follow up with any velidromes or Chung method testing?


Well, I have exhausted my budget for paid testing this year, but there are a few more items I do have on my radar. So, I might be up for a trip to the velodrome. After all, my passport is up to date. 😉

However, I'll likely just Chung the shit out of whatever I end up going with.

My YouTubes

Last edited by: LAI: Feb 24, 19 8:27
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Re: Another "I went to the Tunnel" Thread..... [LAI] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for sharing the great info!

I’ll watch the YouTube recap when available.

Ahead of additional testing are you sticking with the BP3, POC, Velotoze and Tripsocks?

Very interesting that the helmets made so little difference. In the YouTube link starting photo you’re wearing a different suit. Did it test so much slower that you didn’t continue?
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Re: Another "I went to the Tunnel" Thread..... [LAI] [ In reply to ]
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What about beard vs. no beard? :)

LAI wrote:
Fishbum wrote:
Will you now follow up with any velidromes or Chung method testing?

Well, I have exhausted my budget for paid testing this year, but there are a few more items I do have on my radar. So, I might be up for a trip to the velodrome. After all, my passport is up to date. 😉

However, I'll likely just Chung the shit out of whatever I end up going with.

What's your CdA?
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Re: Another "I went to the Tunnel" Thread..... [SummitAK] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry, I should have clarified and when I get home I'll add descriptors to the op for my labels on the charts.

The NP stands for nopinz trip suit and its drastically faster for me. Yeah, the bp3 is now in the bin. 😂

But yeah, I will be running the NP suit, POC, trip socks, and velotoez moving forward.....maybe. 😉

My YouTubes

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Re: Another "I went to the Tunnel" Thread..... [trailerhouse] [ In reply to ]
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Hahaha. That was a topic that was debated in the control room.

trailerhouse wrote:
What about beard vs. no beard? :)

My YouTubes

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Re: Another "I went to the Tunnel" Thread..... [LAI] [ In reply to ]
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Awesome, thanks for posting this!

Just to clarify, your baseline was BP3 with Poc, no gloves, no shoe covers, normal socks... and all the changes were single changes from this baseline? For instance, when you show the shoe covers at .190 vs a baseline of .197, this savings is from the shoe covers alone? No wait... you say the gloves were bad, so that can't be the case. I'm confused....


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Re: Another "I went to the Tunnel" Thread..... [LAI] [ In reply to ]
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have you entirely abandoned the idea of a more conventional position? i ask because i've watched your position morph a lot, but the one thing i'm dead certain never to see you in is an orthodox position.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Another "I went to the Tunnel" Thread..... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
have you entirely abandoned the idea of a more conventional position? i ask because i've watched your position morph a lot, but the one thing i'm dead certain never to see you in is an orthodox position.


As someone who rides out side the "orthodox position" I'm not sure why this thought is out there that we all should fit into this neat little box. If nothing else one thing I have learned through working with my own position and and paying a couple of so called experts one of which was a fist guy is fit is extremely personal.
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Re: Another "I went to the Tunnel" Thread..... [LAI] [ In reply to ]
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LAI wrote:
However, I'll likely just Chung the shit out of whatever I end up going with.

I don't really have a comment to make. I'm just responding so I can find your delicious post.
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Re: Another "I went to the Tunnel" Thread..... [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Fishbum wrote:
Slowman wrote:
have you entirely abandoned the idea of a more conventional position? i ask because i've watched your position morph a lot, but the one thing i'm dead certain never to see you in is an orthodox position.


As someone who rides out side the "orthodox position" I'm not sure why this thought is out there that we all should fit into this neat little box. If nothing else one thing I have learned through working with my own position and and paying a couple of so called experts one of which was a fist guy is fit is extremely personal.

when you catch a bacterial infection, and the doctor prescribes a particular antibiotic, do you ask him why he assumes you should fit into that neat little box?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Another "I went to the Tunnel" Thread..... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Ha, u just compared the FIST system that u created to something a doctor does?
This is a conversation I'm dying to have!
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Re: Another "I went to the Tunnel" Thread..... [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Fishbum wrote:
Ha, u just compared the FIST system that u created to something a doctor does? This is a conversation I'm dying to have!

no. what i'm saying is, after 40 years of a sport, orthodox behaviors and practices have been established. what determines orthodoxy is not what i say, what slowtwitch, fist, training peaks, brett sutton, usat, ironman, or paul the apostle says it is. orthodoxy is apparent simply by the evidence of success clustered around a norm. if we all see that 80 or 90 percent of fast swimmers do certain things alike, orthodoxy is established. if the medical community determines that 80 or 90 percent of people get better when they take a particular drug, orthodoxy is established.

is there an orthodox way to ride a bike? whether road or tri? it isn't fist. it's fist, retul, guru, lemond, hinault, the coni manual going back to 1972. it's all of them. it's all fit systems save one, over the past 40 or 50 years, whether static or dynamic. they all describe and assume orthodoxy, and circumscribe your allowable fit parameters, in one way or another, to draw you to orthodoxy.

if you're a doctor, an AAU basketball coach, an accountant, and you choose to deploy the same methodology as those who found success before you, you're choosing orthodoxy. my advice: first learn the orthodox way of doing something. then, if you want to try something new, okay. if you think there is no orthodox way to ride a tri bike - that there are no habits that good athletes demonstrate in common - okay. is it that you don't think there are common bike fit and set up behaviors and postures among the best triathletes? okay, but i think there's a lot of evidence against you. if you simply prefer the unorthodox way of doing things. that's certainly your choice. i simply asked the OP whether, along with all the unorthodox options, orthodoxy was a consideration, or whether it's off the table altogether.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Another "I went to the Tunnel" Thread..... [LAI] [ In reply to ]
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are you using the shoe only velotoze or just the tall velotoze that velotoze's own data shows as slower than short version? maybe they updated or abandoned that previously published table? too lazy to google foo it right now
Last edited by: jeffp: Feb 24, 19 11:51
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Re: Another "I went to the Tunnel" Thread..... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
have you entirely abandoned the idea of a more conventional position?

I'm very curious to know what changes you would make to bring him into orthodoxy.
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Re: Another "I went to the Tunnel" Thread..... [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
Slowman wrote:
have you entirely abandoned the idea of a more conventional position?


I'm very curious to know what changes you would make to bring him into orthodoxy.

here's male bike positions in kona, 2016. oceanside, 2017. fair number of bike positions in profile in kona, 2018. you don't see any obvious commonalities between these positions on the one hand, and our OP's position on the other hand?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Another "I went to the Tunnel" Thread..... [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
Awesome, thanks for posting this!

Just to clarify, your baseline was BP3 with Poc, no gloves, no shoe covers, normal socks... and all the changes were single changes from this baseline? For instance, when you show the shoe covers at .190 vs a baseline of .197, this savings is from the shoe covers alone? No wait... you say the gloves were bad, so that can't be the case. I'm confused....

Sorry, I am home now and will be doing some edits before I start prepping for this live. Seems I also need to mediate a tangent between Damian and Dan. ;)

Yeah, the BP3 was to gauge the difference between last year's equipment and this one and to get a data point on the BP3 w/number vs the NoPinz suit. The real Baseline is the NoPinz suit w/POC. From there we tested all the helmets, then gloves, then trip socks, and then finally the shoe covers. I'll add in to the op a legend now as well as the testing order and items. And then I'll see about Dan and Damian.

My YouTubes

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