Ambulance bill from crash at race

Nov 14, 03 9:01

Post #1 of 57 (5039 views)

Back in the beginning of September, I took a spill from my bike during a race. It was NOT a USAT sanctioned race, but a large local race that has been put on for many years.

Anyway, the ambulance which was 500 yards away from me at the time of the fall (pretty convenient huh?) drove up the road to me and put me on a stretcher. They thought I had maybe broken my ankle or my hip and I had severe road rash down most of the left side of my body. At that point I did the smart thing and refused to go to the hospital. There were a bunch of reasons for that decision but they aren't really relevant. So, the ambulance took me on the stretcher with my bike back to the transition area which was about 2 miles away. They made me sign a release, dumped some distilled water on my wounds, and taped some bandages on me. Basically, they had no idea what to do for the road rash and told me to get to the hospital.

Once back at transition area, the race director said he would help me find a volunteer to get my stuff back to my vehicle. Well guess what, after 20 minutes of bleeding all over the pavement and listening to everybody walk by saying "ouch" or "that sucks", I hobbled into transition, grabbed all my own shit, and made the torturous walk back to my truck and headed home. I have never heard from anyone from the race at all to find out if I was ok or if I died or whatever...

But, here's the kicker... last night in the mail I received a letter from the ambulance company and a release to sign so that they can bill my health insurance company for their services!!! I was appalled, but rather than fly off the handle, I am going to calm down and then write a letter back to them. As I see it there are several issues: 1) They are a volunteer ambulance company funded by tax dollars and charitable contributions, so they have no right to bill me or my insurance company; 2) They really provided no service other than a cab ride and three gauze pads; 3) Shouldn't they be billing the race's insurance company since that was what part of my fee went towards?

I'm sure some of you can provide insight on these and other issues. Please let me know if you think I'm way off base with my anger towards this situation. And before anybody flames me about supporting local safety volunteers, please note that I GENEROUSLY support my local volunteer fire and ambulance companies every single year.

Thanks!

Andy

'You'd be surprised how many people violate this simple principle every day of their lives and try to fit square pegs into round holes, ignoring the clear reality that Thinsg Are As They Are.'

Re: Ambulance bill from crash at race [Andy] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 03 9:21

Post #2 of 57 (4994 views)

Welcome to the club.

My rule of thumb: if you don't feel using the services of an ambulance and its crew is necessary, do not, under any circumstances allow them to touch you or get into their "rig" unless ordered to do so by the police.

They will bill the snot out of you. I was "forced" to take an ambulance to the hospital for some slashed up hands and arms after I had controlled the bleeding and when I had a friend who was ready to drive me. That four mile taxi ride (no sirens or rush whatsoever) cost me over $300. I just sat in the back of the truck and chatted with an EMT the whole way. I can assure you, the conversation was not worth the money. I've been an ambulance passenger three times. Once it was necessary, once was absurd (see above), and once I was ordered to by The Man under threat of arrest.

Make no mistake. It is a business and the companies are out to make money. Yes, they can do great things in an emergency, but when things are slow they need to make their money somehow.

Re: Ambulance bill from crash at race [Pooks] [ In reply to ]

Mike In Seattle

Nov 14, 03 10:00

Post #3 of 57 (4935 views)

Your tax dollars only pay part of their budget. The way it breaks down is that taxes fund maintaining a department, and getting the ambulance out to any call. Once you accept treatment, you are on your own dime. Maintiaining EMS services isn't cheap, which is why your 4 mile "taxi" ride (as you call it) was 300$.

Like it or not, both of you received medical treatment, on your consent, and you should pay for the services you received. That is why you have health insurance right???? As far as race insurance, I think that is only liability insurance, not really medical coverage for each participant, but I could be wrong.

Re: Ambulance bill from crash at race [Pooks] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 03 10:04

Post #4 of 57 (4927 views)

Can you please explain under what circumstances the police can make you get in an ambulance? As a member of my company's ERT (emergency response team) I've always been taught that if the patient is conscious we cannot, under any circumstance, force them to accept treatment or get in an ambulance if they refuse- even if they have arterial bleeding or have just had a heart attack. We ask them to sign a waiver, but they can even refuse that, in which case we have another witness sign and attest to the fact that we read them the waiver and informed them of their rights.

Re: Ambulance bill from crash at race [Mike In Seattle] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 03 10:14

Post #5 of 57 (4898 views)

I think that is only liability insurance, not really medical coverage for each participant, but I could be wrong.

For bicycle races (USAC and FIAC), insurance covers liability and rider medical (secondary).

Re: Ambulance bill from crash at race [Andy] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 03 10:15

Post #6 of 57 (4899 views)

In Reply To:

But, here's the kicker... last night in the mail I received a letter from the ambulance company and a release to sign so that they can bill my health insurance company for their services!!! I was appalled, but rather than fly off the handle, I am going to calm down and then write a letter back to them. As I see it there are several issues: 1) They are a volunteer ambulance company funded by tax dollars and charitable contributions, so they have no right to bill me or my insurance company; 2) They really provided no service other than a cab ride and three gauze pads; 3) Shouldn't they be billing the race's insurance company since that was what part of my fee went towards?

Andy,

Sorry, I guess I don't get your question.......why wouldn't they bill you? They are actually doing you a favor to ask for your health insurance to file rather than making you pay and then handle all of that yourself. Like it or not, you did use their service and you owe for it. So, what is your question with that? Now, yes they are are expense, but so is their equipment, etc.

Anyway, sorry for your wreck, and best wishes to you.

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Re: Ambulance bill from crash at race [jkatsoudas] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 03 10:21

Post #7 of 57 (4878 views)

As far as I know, the police can only legally make you get in an ambulance if they put you on a medical/psychiatric hold - here its called a 5150. They could do this if they deemed you a danger to yourself (suicidal), a danger to others, or incabable of taking care of yourself (think bad alzheimers or something). Now they can be creative and give you choices: go to the hospital in the ambulance or go to jail in a police car.....you pick.

Re: Ambulance bill from crash at race [Andy] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 03 10:38

Post #8 of 57 (4840 views)

An ambulance is a big deal to me. I would not get in one unless I was seriously concerned about my health. if I did accept any services from them, I would expect to pay for them.

Sorry about the crash. Hope you are recovering well.

Re: Ambulance bill from crash at race [david] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 03 10:40

Post #9 of 57 (4839 views)

David,

Did you read my post? They wouldn't bill me because 1)they are funded with taxpayer dollars 2)they did virtually nothing 3)i was under the impression since they were there as part of the race i.e. parked at a course turn that they were there as part of the services i receive for paying my race entry fee. They did not walk up to me and say "hi, this two mile ride, eight ounces of distilled water, and 3 bandaids are going to cost you and your insurance company $300. can we help you?" Pooks was right on with his comments. On top of the thousands and thousands of dollars I pay in state and local taxes and the hundreds and hundreds of dollars I have given directly to my local ambulance and fire crews, then I get billed for "using" the service. Rhetorical question, why should I give charitably if I'm going to pay as I go anyway?

Doing me a favor by billing my insurance company!?!?! Dude, get real. Obviously you don't pay for your own health insurance. It is that mentality that causes the freakin rates to be sky high. Ask Tom D.

I guess you are right though. I do owe them for the ride and the bandaids. That should amount to, what, $10 max? I'll let everyone know what the bill is.

Thanks for the well wishes. It took a couple of weeks to heal up but all is ok.

Andy

'You'd be surprised how many people violate this simple principle every day of their lives and try to fit square pegs into round holes, ignoring the clear reality that Thinsg Are As They Are.'

Re: Ambulance bill from crash at race [Andy] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 03 10:55

Post #10 of 57 (4808 views)

I believe the race directors insurance policy will only cover a medical bill if the participant does not have insurance or is under insured. Then I believe there is a cap of something like $10,000. I think that is for the USAT policy so your RD's insurance may be different.

So the first place they will bill is your insurance company.

How much was the bill $$$? My wife and I just had Girl #3 and the bill for the birth and three days in the hospital was over $18,000. I have to pay $600. ($200 copay per day)

Willy in Pacifica

.
Willy in Pacifica

Re: Ambulance bill from crash at race [Andy] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 03 10:55

Post #11 of 57 (4807 views)

In Reply To:

David,

Did you read my post? .........Obviously you don't pay for your own health insurance. It is that mentality that causes the freakin rates to be sky high.

Yes, I read it very well. And, yes, I do pay for my health insurance and that of all my employees, in full.

They responded, and you let them respond, to an emergency situation....that's what they do and they charge for it. Tax supported or not (I don't know the particulars of their finances) they still charge for their services - they have to. Maybe you should "Dude, get real."(sorry for the sarcasm) One of the items that makes the rates that you speak of go sky high is people that use the services don't take the responsibility of paying and complain about paying. Maybe they were a bit too "convenient" for you, true, and you really didn't need it; but, every EMS I have ever dealt with has a minimum fee (and most that I have seen are over $300) and that's the way it is. On the other hand what if you did have something broken - that is the part of the service they provided you.

Anyway, not meaning to fight. Gald you are ok.

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Re: Ambulance bill from crash at race [david] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 03 11:05

Post #12 of 57 (4792 views)

>>Maybe you should "Dude, get real."(sorry for the sarcasm) <<

Amen David.

Welcome to the real world Andy. Did you honestly think race entry covered medical assistance? If you go back and read the wavier you signed, you will most likely find a section in it about medical costs (under which the ambulance would fall).

BTW--you got off cheap. My ambulance ride after my car accident cost $625, covered by my uninsured motorist policy.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Re: Ambulance bill from crash at race [david] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 03 11:14

Post #13 of 57 (4778 views)

David, I appreciate your response. We won't see eye to eye on this and that is ok. Hopefully your comment about taking responsibility was a general one and not directed towards me since you know very little about me. I AM complaining, NOT neglecting. I do believe it is fair for me or anyone else to debate a bill that they don't agree with. I agree with you that neglecting responsibility causes rates to rise, but a larger cause to the rise in rates is the frequency with which people go to the doctor/hospital. I pay for quite a few family's health insurance and am surprised by the frequency of usage. Wasn't anyone else under the impression that the medical volunteers ON-SITE were a part of the service for which you pay a race fee? If I owe the money, I'll pay it. But I'll argue it on principle. That is one reason I brought it up here... dude.

Thanks!

Andy

'You'd be surprised how many people violate this simple principle every day of their lives and try to fit square pegs into round holes, ignoring the clear reality that Thinsg Are As They Are.'

Re: Ambulance bill from crash at race [Andy] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 03 11:30

Post #14 of 57 (4761 views)

"Wasn't anyone else under the impression that the medical volunteers ON-SITE were a part of the service for which you pay a race fee?"

Andy,

I would think that your race entry is paying for the medical crew, but most likely it is only to pay for them to be there and available. Otherwise they would be out on other medical calls.

Willy in Pacifica

.
Willy in Pacifica

Re: Ambulance bill from crash at race [Andy] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 03 11:33

Post #15 of 57 (4756 views)

Sorry, David is right. You took the ride. You owe the bill. I made this mistake maybe 20 years ago. The solution is very simple. Don't get in the ambulance. Next time you know.

I am guessing the bill is around $300 bucks. Consider yourself older and wiser.

Hope you heal.

Re: Ambulance bill from crash at race [ironclm] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 03 11:36

Post #16 of 57 (4751 views)

Cathy,

Thanks for the welcome.

The difference between my incident and yours was that I did not request their assistance and did in fact refuse treatment. They insisted on at least giving me a ride back to my car (the one emt was a grandma who said I reminded her of her son - really nice and fussed over me and stuff). They were not dispatched to the scene. I fell right in front of them basically. Honestly, I did feel that an ambulance ride/transport to hospital was part of the race entry fee. I do realize that all the hospital bills/surgery etc. would not be covered... Who takes the health insurance cards for the IV's given after an IM?

Andy

'You'd be surprised how many people violate this simple principle every day of their lives and try to fit square pegs into round holes, ignoring the clear reality that Thinsg Are As They Are.'

Re: Ambulance bill from crash at race [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 03 11:41

Post #17 of 57 (4734 views)

Thanks Art and David and others. I appreciate your feedback.

Good advice, Art...as usual.

Andy

'You'd be surprised how many people violate this simple principle every day of their lives and try to fit square pegs into round holes, ignoring the clear reality that Thinsg Are As They Are.'

Re: Ambulance bill from crash at race [Andy] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 03 11:49

Post #18 of 57 (4725 views)

This is indeed unfortuante.

Thankfully most of my racing took place in Canada, where, I could rest assured that I would be transported directly to the nearest hospital, no questions asked or bills submitted, if the same misfortune had ever happened to me.

We even do the same for foreigners.

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Re: Ambulance bill from crash at race [Andy] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 03 11:50

Post #19 of 57 (4724 views)

I think we should all remember Pooks' advice==don't get in the ambulance unless totally necessary.

Ambulance crew and med tent are NOT the same thing. One is volunteer crew (med tent). The other (ambulance) is paid for their time.

IV cost: Probably built into the cost of the race. I've yet to be billed for the two I received at Ultramax.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Re: Ambulance bill from crash at race [Fleck] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 03 12:01

Post #20 of 57 (4709 views)

"Thankfully most of my racing took place in Canada, where, I could rest assured that I would be transported directly to the nearest hospital, no questions asked or bills submitted, if the same misfortune had ever happened to me. "

Glad you pointed that out Fleck. Our government health care system, despite it's flaws, is one thing very few of us Canuks would be prepared to give up. It's our "motherhood and apple pie" issue. Sure we pay a bit more income tax for it, but it's money well spent. If a US style private health care system ever came to Canada, I'll move elsewhere.

Re: Ambulance bill from crash at race [Mike In Seattle] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 03 12:22

Post #21 of 57 (4685 views)

"Like it or not, both of you received medical treatment, on your consent, and you should pay for the services you received."

I certainly agree. (Although in two cases, the only treatment I received was a ride) The problem is that many (most??) people don't realize 1) that they will have to pay for the ambulance (insurance or no) and 2) how much the ambulance services cost. In situations where "care" is not critical it would be nice if "patients" were made aware of the amount of cash they are about to drop. So in my case, I have to plead ignorance as I didn't know how things worked. And of course ignorance is no excuse. I'll know better next time...

Re: Ambulance bill from crash at race [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 03 12:24

Post #22 of 57 (4683 views)

Actually even with our health care system - you still have to pay for the ambulance in many cases in Ontario. I believe it is a controlled flat rate of $125 canadian (so really about the same as a tank of gas for the ambulance). My wife recently had our baby ten weeks early and he had to be moved from were he was born to Women's College hospital in downtown T.O. to receive a higher standard of care and I have received a bill for the ambulance.

If it isn't included here when we have 'universal health care'? I am pretty sure it wouldn't be covered elsewhere.

Andy. I am sorry but I have to agree with the others. You shouldn't be surprised and should know that these sorts of things always cost money.

____________________________________________

"which is like watching one of your buddies announce that he's quitting booze and cigarettes, switching to a Vegan diet and training for triathalons ... but he's going to keep snorting heroin." Bill Simmons, ESPN

Re: Ambulance bill from crash at race [jkatsoudas] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 03 12:26

Post #23 of 57 (4680 views)

"Can you please explain under what circumstances the police can make you get in an ambulance?"

Sometimes police can assert authority that they may not have. I was told "get in the ambulance or I'll arrest you." Believe me or not, I know people who were arrested and charged for less.

The other time is when you're drunk out of your mind. Good times.

Faced with paying a couple hundred bucks vs. a night in jail and a possible charge, I'll spend the cash.

Re: Ambulance bill from crash at race [Andy] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 03 12:39

Post #24 of 57 (4655 views)

My memory is that IM North America spells out quite clearly what medical services are included and what are not. I suppose that is part of the reson that their races cost as much as they do.

Re: Ambulance bill from crash at race [Pooks] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 03 12:46

Post #25 of 57 (4645 views)

<<Sometimes police can assert authority that they may not have. I was told "get in the ambulance or I'll arrest you." Believe me or not, I know people who were arrested and charged for less.

The other time is when you're drunk out of your mind. Good times. >>

The difference between a good friend and a true friend is:

A good friend is one you can call at 3 a.m. to bail you out of jail.

A true friend will be sitting next to you in the cell saying "Dude, that was so awsome!"

Brett

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