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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Jloewe] [ In reply to ]
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I use butyl for training. Several reasons:
  • I train almost every day and I prefer not to pump my tyres every day or every other day - butyl usually lasts at least a week.
  • As I train most days, I happen to also flat when the weather sucks. Latex requires more nursing when installing, which I don't have the patience for (or the finger warmth before they go numb!) when it's snow or 2C and rain.
  • I usually use CO2 to fill up my tyres after I flat, which doesn't work well with latex.

For racing I always use latex.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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jaretj wrote:
I understand where you are coming from. I've had the same thoughts as well.

Yes, CRR gains are small from latex tubes but it's just a part of everything you do to be faster. 4-5 watts is what I've seen out of both tires combined, is it worth it? I can see where some would decide it's not.

Wow thank you for at least understanding my POV. Maybe I just suck at installing, maybe it’s because I’m fat, maybe it’s because I live in New England where the roads are pure shit. But I get flats no matter what I do. So I feel the extra money isn’t worth 4-5 watts save for special races. I also just use T-9 or *gasp* finish line on my chain. For a special race I’ll clean it off and wax it. But as a MOPer/BOPer I won’t see measurable difference so I’ll just do whatever is cheap and convenient. That’s my style.

I still lapped everyone on the couch!
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [MTM] [ In reply to ]
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Man I feel like I’m a latex salesperson ! Jeesh

Most don’t keep latex as spare tube on the road. For all the reasons you said, butyl stays in my saddle bag (even on race days)
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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Ai_1 wrote:
I'm not aware of any evidence that the puncture more easily, except as a result of careless installation (rim tape issues or caught between rim and tyre). In fact I'd expect them to resist punctures much better than butyl under some circumstances and I'm not alone in that belief. I've been using latex on my tri bike for over 2.5 years. The original tubes are still in there and have never punctured. I don't use sealant. My road bike is fitted with butyl since the one disadvantage I know of for latex is decreased heat resistance. I used my road bike for an Alpine sportive a while back that had some massive descents on it. I'm a bit over 80kg and wasn't sure if I'd find myself dragging my brakes for long periods (I generally don't but on an unfamiliar route with lots of other bikes, it was a bit of an unknown). next time I change tyres, I'll put latex on there too.

That is reassuring, thank you very much for pointing this out to me. How serious is the heat issue? I am almost 2m tall and weigh in at around 77kg. I am too old to risk larger patches of my skin so I tend to brake quite a bit on the descent (okay, I might just be a sissy...). I ride light aluminum wheels on my road bike (Mavic Ksyrium Pro Exalith SL WTS) and 50mm carbon clinchers with aluminum brake surfaces (Oval Concept 950) and my next race will be IM70.3 Marbella - with almost 1700m ascent/descent more or less packed into two long descents. Probably not the smartest idea to use latex on these then?
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Jloewe] [ In reply to ]
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Jloewe wrote:
jaretj wrote:
I also just use T-9 or *gasp* finish line on my chain. For a special race I’ll clean it off and wax it. But as a MOPer/BOPer I won’t see measurable difference so I’ll just do whatever is cheap and convenient. That’s my style.


I love this attitude. It helps me place better. Everyone, including last place sees a benefit if its a benefit. If you don't care about maybe finishing even one place higher, why race?
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [iamuwere] [ In reply to ]
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iamuwere wrote:
Jloewe wrote:
jaretj wrote:
I also just use T-9 or *gasp* finish line on my chain. For a special race I’ll clean it off and wax it. But as a MOPer/BOPer I won’t see measurable difference so I’ll just do whatever is cheap and convenient. That’s my style.


I love this attitude. It helps me place better. Everyone, including last place sees a benefit if its a benefit. If you don't care about maybe finishing even one place higher, why race?

I didn't write that. You selectively omitted what I did write.
Last edited by: jaretj: Feb 20, 19 7:50
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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It’s a direct quote from your post
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [iamuwere] [ In reply to ]
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No it isn't quoting me, you replied to post #52 and edited it to make it look like I wrote it.

Go back and look at what I wrote on post #48.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [iamuwere] [ In reply to ]
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iamuwere wrote:
It’s a direct quote from your post
No it's not. It's a quote from Jloewe's post but you attributed it to jaretj.
Inadvertent error I think since it looks like the bit attributed to Jloewe is your own comment.
Just screwed up the quote formatting.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Jloewe] [ In reply to ]
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Jloewe wrote:
PBT_2009 wrote:
mvenneta wrote:
Why do you ride 100psi?


This!! We need an answer to this question. I read this whole thread baffled as to how that early comment was ignored.


Because I’m fat


https://www.bicycling.com/...-bike-tire-pressure/

I am a heavy rider (210 lbs but have weighed much more in the past...); that 4-5 watts of Crr that is getting mentioned in this thread is for 42.5kg load per wheel (4 watts @ 188lb for rider + bike). Power consumed by rolling resistance is proportional to the load, so heavier riders will save more watts than a lighter rider. This power is also proportional to velocity meaning Crr savings benefit you even at low speeds (e.g., climbing, when bigger riders need the most help...) unlike aero gains which are proportional to the velocity cubed.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Jloewe] [ In reply to ]
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Jloewe wrote:
jaretj wrote:
I understand where you are coming from. I've had the same thoughts as well.

Yes, CRR gains are small from latex tubes but it's just a part of everything you do to be faster. 4-5 watts is what I've seen out of both tires combined, is it worth it? I can see where some would decide it's not.

Wow thank you for at least understanding my POV. Maybe I just suck at installing, maybe it’s because I’m fat, maybe it’s because I live in New England where the roads are pure shit. But I get flats no matter what I do. So I feel the extra money isn’t worth 4-5 watts save for special races. I also just use T-9 or *gasp* finish line on my chain. For a special race I’ll clean it off and wax it. But as a MOPer/BOPer I won’t see measurable difference so I’ll just do whatever is cheap and convenient. That’s my style.

I'm with you, brother. I don't see the point in latex tubes on my training wheels either, not when I'm using Gatorskins or similar heavy training tyres.

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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Jloewe] [ In reply to ]
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Just curious... how much extra work would you have to put in to gain an extra 4(ish) watts of power on the supply side of the equation? What is the opportunity (heck, what is the actual) cost of that?

I know how much I would have to do to be that much stronger over an Ironman distance. The difference in cost between butyl and latex tubes is a total bargain compared to the hours I'd need to put in to move my FTP that much.

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [fredly] [ In reply to ]
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fredly wrote:
Just curious... how much extra work would you have to put in to gain an extra 4(ish) watts of power on the supply side of the equation? What is the opportunity (heck, what is the actual) cost of that?

I know how much I would have to do to be that much stronger over an Ironman distance. The difference in cost between butyl and latex tubes is a total bargain compared to the hours I'd need to put in to move my FTP that much.
Considering that he’s already stated that he uses them for his big races, I’m not sure what you’re arguing here?

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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Considering that he’s already stated that he uses them for his big races, I’m not sure what you’re arguing here?

If you're going to demand that level of logical rigor, the base argument of the OP gets nuked on post one. "I'm going to do this on special occasions because it's clearly worthwhile, but I don't think it's actually worthwhile"
So let's just say I'm responding to the latter part of the argument while ignoring the former in order to preserve the illusion that this isn't a ridiculous conversation.

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [fredly] [ In reply to ]
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fredly wrote:
Quote:
Considering that he’s already stated that he uses them for his big races, I’m not sure what you’re arguing here?

If you're going to demand that level of logical rigor, the base argument of the OP gets nuked on post one. "I'm going to do this on special occasions because it's clearly worthwhile, but I don't think it's actually worthwhile"
So let's just say I'm responding to the latter part of the argument while ignoring the former in order to preserve the illusion that this isn't a ridiculous conversation.

OK. Carry on, good sir.

Swimming Workout of the Day: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=5784860#5784860;
Favourite Swim Sets: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...m.cgi?;post=5004659;
Unattainable goals for 2019/2020 season. https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=6944848#p6944848
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [fredly] [ In reply to ]
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fredly wrote:
Quote:
Considering that he’s already stated that he uses them for his big races, I’m not sure what you’re arguing here?


If you're going to demand that level of logical rigor, the base argument of the OP gets nuked on post one. "I'm going to do this on special occasions because it's clearly worthwhile, but I don't think it's actually worthwhile"
So let's just say I'm responding to the latter part of the argument while ignoring the former in order to preserve the illusion that this isn't a ridiculous conversation.

Which is precisely why I've stepped out of the discussion---except to watch the trainwreck. I could no longer preserve that illusion.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Jloewe] [ In reply to ]
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Jloewe wrote:
It’s why I’m not buying more expensive latex tubes when the butyl ones work just fine. They’re not making my ride anymore enjoyable, and they’re not earning me a PR, and they’re not earning me a podium. So in my estimation why bother?

When I put on race tires as oppose to heavy training tires by the time I’ve ridden around the corner I can feel and see I’m faster. Same with my A2. I can confirm it through strava segments and a faster overall velocity. If I rode that same ride 10 times the 5 on each the stats would be lopsided.

I'm curious as to your testing protocol where you can determine latex to have little to no effect, but you can tell the difference with tires and your helmet.

I personally have a 4.5 mile hill that I train on all the time. Probably did the full climb over 500 times with a power meter, and have done hundreds more power intervals in the middle over the climb. It's relatively sheltered from the wind, and a steady 6% so it mitigates things like your position, or how aero your kit is so you can test things like rolling resistance and weight differences.

I've got this hill so dialed in, that I can pretty much predict my time knowing what kind of tires/tubes I have on, how much I weigh (person, bike, gear), and how many watts I put out average. I can say that over many tests, that latex is indeed about 4-5 watts faster for me. I've also confirmed that Gatorskins roll about 15 watts slower than GP4000S tires on this climb.

Maybe I have a magic pair of latex tubes...or you inadvertently bought a fake pair. Or maybe...just maybe...you need a much better way of quantifying what latex is or isn't doing for you.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Dembo] [ In reply to ]
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Dembo wrote:
Haven't tried latex tubes but I have to say that picking up even just 5W for (almost) free sounds intriguing. I am mostly concerned about the - allegedly - reduced puncture resistance. It would take a lot of watts to regain the time I might lose when changing a flat. Then again, I wonder how big an effect the tube has on puncture resistance. After all: Once something punctures your tire it should easily be ably to puncture a much thinner tube or am overlooking something here?

Latex tubes have better resistance to most punctures, like pinch flats, and small things like thorns and staples. Many times I've had these puncture the tire, but not go through the tube. The tube will simply stretch around the object.

Latex tubes can be bad if you get little cuts that go all the way through the tire casing but no further. Eventually the latex tube will stretch out of the hole and pop, while a butyl tube usually won't.

I've been using latex tubes exclusively on the road for ~50k miles now. MTB also.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [MTM] [ In reply to ]
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MTM wrote:
I use butyl for training. Several reasons:
  • I train almost every day and I prefer not to pump my tyres every day or every other day - butyl usually lasts at least a week.
  • As I train most days, I happen to also flat when the weather sucks. Latex requires more nursing when installing, which I don't have the patience for (or the finger warmth before they go numb!) when it's snow or 2C and rain.
  • I usually use CO2 to fill up my tyres after I flat, which doesn't work well with latex.

I do carry butyl spares to address your 2nd and 3rd points.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Jloewe] [ In reply to ]
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Jloewe wrote:
...To me personally, after getting a 3rd mystery flat in one year at $13 a piece I decided I was done...

"Mystery flat" means you didn't figure out the cause. That's on you.

Latex is much less likely to pinch flat or puncture. And it's easy to patch, so the cost difference is essentially a wash.

Out of laziness I use butyl on a commuter bike and on the trainer. Otherwise all latex, all the time. I race cyclocross with 18-24 psi, bottoming out routinely. Trust me, latex is not delicate.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Jloewe] [ In reply to ]
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Jloewe wrote:
...Maybe I just suck at installing, maybe it’s because I’m fat, maybe it’s because I live in New England where the roads are pure shit. But I get flats no matter what I do. So I feel the extra money isn’t worth 4-5 watts save for special races...

Keep in mind that installation is the riskiest part of using latex tubes. If you really do suck at installing, switching to latex just before your big race might be a recipe for disaster.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Jloewe] [ In reply to ]
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Jloewe wrote:
Been using latex tubes about 2 years. Then towards the end of the year I ran out and had to put an old butyle tube in. As far as I can tell switching back and fourth a couple times I have noticed no difference between butyle and latex.

I know the data, read it 100 times. Seen all the slowtwich conversations. But to me I just don’t notice a difference other than lower life span and a lighter wallet. Anyone else feel this way or am I just some lost cycling Neanderthal?

Personally me, now that I finally ran through most of my old butyle stock (some cheap ass Kendas at that), I think it’s just not worth the money and effort. With that said before an “A” race I’ll likely switch to latex and run that tube till it’s done. But that’s another story all together.
I'm not sure if it has been mentioned through the thread already but Cam Wurf doesn't run them in Kona and he has done all the tunnel and associated testing. People can say trust the data but as someone that had worked with Contador in a thread the other week said that the Zipp wheel tested faster but he still felt the Hed H3 was faster and always used it. The same goes for me with clinchers and tubulars. I have tried clinchers with and without latex but I still like the feeling to tubulars and to me they feel faster despite what data says. It's all minimal gains so I use what is most practical, I enjoy and and sometimes economical.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Jloewe] [ In reply to ]
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You don’t have a power meter and are going on gut feeling about your speed. That’s all that needs to be said here. You have not made a valid case. Latex is marginal gains, in the first place. It’s not a gross change that you will be able to discern by your disconnected human senses.

But that’s ok. You’re free to roll your butyl anytime we’re in the same race.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Shambolic wrote:
I have tried clinchers with and without latex but I still like the feeling to tubulars and to me they feel faster despite what data says.

Latex is used in high-end tubulars as well, so they're not exclusive.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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I am running Continental tubs no latex at the moment and they are as fast as any tub I've run. My point was though if it feels just as fast it most probably is. The data says a clincher with latex tubes is faster than a tub but I personally don't find it to be the case. No data just race times and more based on feel.
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