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All Your Secrets to Swim Breast stroke really really fast
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Hey guys, I'm in this painful adult onset learning process to get my 200IM and 400IM times down and the thing that is really killing my times is the stupid breast stroke leg. Literally 70 year old grand mothers are swimming faster than me.

I do realize this stroke can penalize certain body types/ranges of motion etc, but I would like to hear what some of you fish did to get better...everything from beginner to advanced. As it stands my 100m free leg tends to be 25 seconds faster than the breast leg, and furthermore, the first 25m of my free is a disaster after being completely cooked using lot of oxygen to go very slow in breast stroke. So any tips and discussion would be greatly appreciated.

Dev
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Re: All Your Secrets to Swim Breast stroke really really fast [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I used to swim when a kid, and the breast stroke was by far my better stroke. My other styles weren't so quick.
My other qualities were explosivity (sprints), agility and good leg strenght (downhill skier). I guess that gave me a good breast stroke kick. I have narrow rounded shoulders, maybe that body shape helps to have good times on that stroke too. Notice how the good breast stroke guys builds are so different from the other strokes specialists.
I was 10 seconds slower than freestyle on my 100 m breast ( roughly 1:10 for the free and around 1:21 for the breast in the 13-14 cat. if I remeber), but I could swim forever at decent speed with a powerful kick, longer glide phase, not as fast a pace. Maybe that contributed to destroy my knees, as I had knee surgery at 14 yrs old. I remember my coach used to tie our knees together with elastic bands when we swam breast, or kick the breast...
I stil try to avoid anything breast kick related now...

Louis ;-)
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Re: All Your Secrets to Swim Breast stroke really really fast [louisn] [ In reply to ]
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louisn wrote:
I used to swim when a kid, and the breast stroke was by far my better stroke. My other styles weren't so quick.
My other qualities were explosivity (sprints), agility and good leg strenght (downhill skier). I guess that gave me a good breast stroke kick. I have narrow rounded shoulders, maybe that body shape helps to have good times on that stroke too. Notice how the good breast stroke guys builds are so different from the other strokes specialists.
I was 10 seconds slower than freestyle on my 100 m breast ( roughly 1:10 for the free and around 1:21 for the breast in the 13-14 cat. if I remeber), but I could swim forever at decent speed with a powerful kick, longer glide phase, not as fast a pace. Maybe that contributed to destroy my knees, as I had knee surgery at 14 yrs old. I remember my coach used to tie our knees together with elastic bands when we swam breast, or kick the breast...
I stil try to avoid anything breast kick related now...

Louis ;-)

Hey I was thinking I should make a three hold band with a bike inner tube (one hole for each leg and maybe 4 inches in between to keep it narrow enough). But now this talk about bad knees has me scared!!!!
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Re: All Your Secrets to Swim Breast stroke really really fast [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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If you want to run, don't practice breaststroke kicking.

As a (reasonably good) teenage breast stroke club swimmer I ended up with trick knees.

The new stroke (it has changed a lot in 50 years) has less emphasis on the wide "knee killing" kick and watching the new ISL (pro) swimmers earlier today I would have sworn some barely turned their ankles at all to kick. It's all in the upper body and the glide. Go take a look at Adam Peaty for typical BR stroker's build and stroke.

The good news is, if you get the pull right in BR, you are going to be a way better butterfly swimmer.
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Re: All Your Secrets to Swim Breast stroke really really fast [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe that was a good idea to correct leg placement for the breast kick. The way our coach did this at the time (late 70's) it didn't leave any free movement from the knees, they were litterally glued one to the other. It can be ok I guess if you leave some free space between the knees.

Louis ;-)
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Re: All Your Secrets to Swim Breast stroke really really fast [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Have you ever done breaststroke arms with dolphin kick as a drill? That helps with rhythm.It's also important to keep your head still throughout the stroke. I've heard of a drill where you hold a tennis ball between your chin and sternum while swimming.
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Re: All Your Secrets to Swim Breast stroke really really fast [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Breaststroke is a mobility stroke. The kids with natural hip mobility (specifically in internal rotation) tend to be 'naturals'. Some of this is genetic and related to the shape of the hip joint but, especially for adults, it's a range that can be greatly improved for most (as we just don't work internal rotation in every day life). Some good mobilization tips from MobilityWod here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inKpTU_TFrU

As an aside, if you don't have good IR and you still aim for a close knee kick, you can really screw up your knees so the knee 'narrowness' should go along with the hip mobility.

In addition to hips, because you don't have body rotation like you do in freestyle & because you only really have the front of the stroke to get productive work done, shoulder mobility is also really important. Good breaststrokers are able to get the chest down while still keeping the hands high (high numbers for shoulder flexion & horizontal abduction) to maximize the work they can accomplish from catch to insweep.

A real focus on mobility coupled with the accompanying technique (high hands, close knees) is, IMO, your best route forward.

P.S. A beautiful demonstration of the above (high hands, narrow kick) by Brenton Rickard here.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfJ105NN68U

Alan Couzens, M.Sc. (Sports Science)
Exercise Physiologist/Coach
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Alan_Couzens
Web: https://alancouzens.com
Last edited by: Alan Couzens: Nov 23, 19 12:31
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Re: All Your Secrets to Swim Breast stroke really really fast [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Hey guys, I'm in this painful adult onset learning process to get my 200IM and 400IM times down and the thing that is really killing my times is the stupid breast stroke leg. Literally 70 year old grand mothers are swimming faster than me.

I do realize this stroke can penalize certain body types/ranges of motion etc, but I would like to hear what some of you fish did to get better...everything from beginner to advanced. As it stands my 100m free leg tends to be 25 seconds faster than the breast leg, and furthermore, the first 25m of my free is a disaster after being completely cooked using lot of oxygen to go very slow in breast stroke. So any tips and discussion would be greatly appreciated.

Dev

How about posting this on a swimming forum?
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Re: All Your Secrets to Swim Breast stroke really really fast [Alan Couzens] [ In reply to ]
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I'll try the high hands next time. I think that would help the butterfly catch too.
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Re: All Your Secrets to Swim Breast stroke really really fast [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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You could learn to do it the new way that they are doing it or you can go old school with a long glide.

Here's my approach to old school. Timing is key. With the long glide you don't want to break out the glide prematurely. The pace seems uneven and might be uneven in that you want it to feel like you've slowed a little in order to effectively kick while lifting to surface.

Start by taking 2 kicks to one breath. This will develop your kick, streamline and timing. Exhale well during the streamline.

Once you have that down, then move to 1 kick for one breath.

This approach will gas you less than the new way which could help your IM overall.

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.
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Re: All Your Secrets to Swim Breast stroke really really fast [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I sucked at breaststroke because no ever took the time to teach me and I never took the time to learn. I am much better now that I took the time to figure it out. Off he top of my head....The kick isn’t up out and around....its up, grab the water with your feet, which will be out, and then back/down, snapping and really pushing at the end. The pull is important, but don’t let it get in the way. The hands are more or less always out front(except on the underwater pull.). You are always pulling and going forward...kind of up an over. You don’t want to be moving up/backward with the upper body when you come up to breathe. Some people seem to jerk backwards when the pop up. Look at king vs efimova. King, great at the 100, pulls up/back a bit more and relies on power while efimova is forward and smooth. King couldn’t swim a decent 200 because of that, but to her credit made great progress with her 200 last year working on being smoother and longer.
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Re: All Your Secrets to Swim Breast stroke really really fast [H2Owings] [ In reply to ]
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If you train in a 25m pool practice pulling out to try and make 12.5 metre line every length off the push off. You can do this in a 50 metre pool too. Two kicks one pull is a good drill which will give you a good glide feel and help with timing.

Breaststroke is all about timing and having a good range of motion in hips helps massively as well. Fast hands when bringing them out the front. Try not to go too deep when you put your head under water like some people did when the new wave style came out.

Do 25m sprints and other max efforts.

Look at mike barrowman or kosuke kitajima to prove you don’t need to be very big to be best in world in breast at your chosen distance.
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Re: All Your Secrets to Swim Breast stroke really really fast [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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fulla wrote:
If you train in a 25m pool practice pulling out to try and make 12.5 metre line every length off the push off. You can do this in a 50 metre pool too. Two kicks one pull is a good drill which will give you a good glide feel and help with timing.

Breaststroke is all about timing and having a good range of motion in hips helps massively as well. Fast hands when bringing them out the front. Try not to go too deep when you put your head under water like some people did when the new wave style came out.

Do 25m sprints and other max efforts.

Look at mike barrowman or kosuke kitajima to prove you don’t need to be very big to be best in world in breast at your chosen distance.

OK thanks for the tip on not driving head too deep on the glide
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Re: All Your Secrets to Swim Breast stroke really really fast [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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First:
Maximize pull-out's. At the start - every wall. 3 count glide in streamline - massive pull out (keep hands and arms and tight to body after) - 2 count glide - kick into a streamline for another 1 count glide. 3-2-1. You can put in the single fly kick during the 3 count glide (new method) or go old school and do it during the pull out motion.

Things to work on with the stroke:
- timing - make sure your kick is timed to propel you when your hands are already out front in streamline.
- Fast hands - after each pull, don't let your hands pause by your chest. Once they come together by your chest, immediately get them out front.
- Keep the kick compact with a quick sweep mostly from the knees down. Make sure your legs stay together at the completion of the kick so that they aren't causing excess drag. The kick should also keep your hips up.
- During the pull phase, try and keep your eyes looking towards the pool bottom. This will help you keep your head down and moving forward instead of up and down.

Lots to think about with breast stroke.
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Re: All Your Secrets to Swim Breast stroke really really fast [trislayer] [ In reply to ]
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trislayer wrote:
First:
Maximize pull-out's. At the start - every wall. 3 count glide in streamline - massive pull out (keep hands and arms and tight to body after) - 2 count glide - kick into a streamline for another 1 count glide. 3-2-1. You can put in the single fly kick during the 3 count glide (new method) or go old school and do it during the pull out motion.

Things to work on with the stroke:
- timing - make sure your kick is timed to propel you when your hands are already out front in streamline.
- Fast hands - after each pull, don't let your hands pause by your chest. Once they come together by your chest, immediately get them out front.
- Keep the kick compact with a quick sweep mostly from the knees down. Make sure your legs stay together at the completion of the kick so that they aren't causing excess drag. The kick should also keep your hips up.
- During the pull phase, try and keep your eyes looking towards the pool bottom. This will help you keep your head down and moving forward instead of up and down.

Lots to think about with breast stroke.


I am thinking that at my level, taking a micro pause at the wall for two quick breaths before this massive pullout sequence may be faster than actually stopping at the wall for less time and doing a less awesome pull out sequence. I was actually think that during my warmups while doing freestyle I could just practice practice practice breast stroke pullouts as it seems this may be an easier skill for me to acquire than the actual stroke.
Last edited by: devashish_paul: Nov 24, 19 13:37
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