All-road Bikes - are they the sweetspot, or the worst of both worlds? (probably yes.)

Apr 27, 20 9:40

Post #1 of 46 (7369 views)

Because N+1, I'm interested in talking about "all-road" or "road plus" bikes. These are your drop bar bikes that tend towards road geometry more than gravel with shortish chainstays, shorter wheelbases, steeper head tubes, etc. But with clearance for a bit bigger tires. Here are some examples (ETA additional models brought up in the thread):

Allied All Road

Salsa Warroad (700c and 650b)

BMC Roadmachine X

Norco Section

Cervelo C3

Surly Midnight Special (650b): https://www.slowtwitch.com/...ravel_Bike_6957.html

Factor Vista

Argon18 Krypton GF
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These seem like ideal bikes for some Roubaix type Races, Belgian Waffle Ride, and long paved and dirt road exploring. But can you survive these rides on your road bike and/or keep up on your gravel bike?

What other models fall under this category? What else makes these bikes stand out? What makes them great? What makes them terrible? What's the best gearing (1x or 2x)? Anyone love em, or done rides where you wish youhad one? Anyone have one collecting dust?

My personal thoughts: I think I would enjoy one for big days of up and down on paved and gravel roads, being a bit lighter and efficient than the gravel bike but with lower gearing and bigger tires than my road bike. And if I ever did a race that was like a 70/30 split of pavement and dirt, where the gravel bike is overkill but the road bike can beat you up a bit (BWR, etc).

Last edited by: brando: Apr 27, 20 11:14

Re: All-road Bikes - are they the sweetspot, or the worst of both worlds? (probably yes.) [brando] [ In reply to ]

Apr 27, 20 10:11

Post #2 of 46 (7325 views)

I had a Factor Vista, which i think falls into your category. Max tire size was about 700x38 if you're lucky. I went back to riding an Exploro. Other than for crit racing, I think my Exploro is pretty ideal. It's a fast road bike. It's a fast gravel bike. It does both really well. There were instances when I had the Factor that I wished i has the Exploro. I haven't had one instance since then where I wish i had the Factor instead of the Exploro.

Maybe an all-road bike would corner slightly better or descend slightly better. I certainly wouldn't love racing crits on my Exploro, but I think I'd be fine in a crit on an Allied All Road.

Even for a roubaix style event, i don't really get why an All Road bike would be better than something like an Exploro, Open, Aspiro, or other race-designed gravel bikes. You can put a 700x32 GP5000TL on an exploro and have a great road race bike, but you can't throw a 700x43 on a cervelo C3 and race Kanza.

My vote would be to pimp out your gravel bike instead of buying an additional "all-road" bike.

Re: All-road Bikes - are they the sweetspot, or the worst of both worlds? (probably yes.) [rob_bell] [ In reply to ]

Apr 27, 20 10:29

Post #3 of 46 (7296 views)

Ahh, yes I remember seeing your Vista pop up in some discussions last year, I think it fits this category as well. I think even the Exploro has some characteristics of this category too with the 72.5 head angle (L and XL) and 415mm chainstays, and 700x40c max. Seems a lot of gravel bikes are now going up to 700x45c for full on monster crossing!

When you say pimp out the gravel bike, do you mean just make it nicer in general, or are there specific upgrades that bring the bike up a level?

Re: All-road Bikes - are they the sweetspot, or the worst of both worlds? (probably yes.) [rob_bell] [ In reply to ]

Apr 27, 20 10:36

Post #4 of 46 (7281 views)

Another consideration, besides the frame characteristics, is the build. Take the Aspero for instance:

Build 1: 1X GRX 650b x 2.1 tires, dropper seatpost, shorter stem and wider bar for maximal off roading
Build 2: 2X GRX, 700x38c, setback post, bit longer stem and narrower bar for maximal speed on dirt roads, flip-chip the other way.

How different would the ride be here, and how many different components to swap? If these are two ways you like to ride your bike, are you ~ just a frame away from the two bike quiver? At this point, maybe you leave the Aspero in 1X mode and get a more "all-road" frame for build 2?

Re: All-road Bikes - are they the sweetspot, or the worst of both worlds? (probably yes.) [brando] [ In reply to ]

Apr 27, 20 10:53

Post #5 of 46 (7244 views)

brando wrote:

When you say pimp out the gravel bike, do you mean just make it nicer in general, or are there specific upgrades that bring the bike up a level?

i meant nicer in general. Electronic shifting takes it up a level, if you don't have that already.

If you have money burning a hole in your pocket, an additional set of wheels for a gravel bike is nearly a must. The conti Terraspeed is a good all around tire, but the tread wears quickly. I have a set of Terraspeeds mounted to my "race" wheels for when i care about speed, and I use some gravelkings on training wheels for most rides. It's nice to have two sets for that reason. When these gravelkings wear out, I think I'll put GP5000s on (rumor has it they are releasing a GP5000 that's even larger than the 700x32) for my road training and group rides, and then keep Terra Speeds on my race gravel wheels.

Re: All-road Bikes - are they the sweetspot, or the worst of both worlds? (probably yes.) [brando] [ In reply to ]

Apr 27, 20 11:06

Post #6 of 46 (7224 views)

I bought an Argon Krypton GF specifically for this usage. If you look at the Argon Dark Matter it is basically the same frame, I think the fork has a little bit wider clearance. But you can put 700x32c tires onto the Krypton...now I just need cash for another wheelset for my gravel tires!

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Re: All-road Bikes - are they the sweetspot, or the worst of both worlds? (probably yes.) [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]

Apr 27, 20 11:12

Post #7 of 46 (7212 views)

Nice, I hadn't seen that one before! Have you been out on it yet? Adding it to the list.

Re: All-road Bikes - are they the sweetspot, or the worst of both worlds? (probably yes.) [brando] [ In reply to ]

Apr 27, 20 11:13

Post #8 of 46 (7205 views)

I've had it for about 6 months. It's great, really enjoy it.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Re: All-road Bikes - are they the sweetspot, or the worst of both worlds? (probably yes.) [rob_bell] [ In reply to ]

Apr 27, 20 11:18

Post #9 of 46 (7192 views)

Got 2 wheelsets (3 in fact, 2x700 and 1x650). I'd like to try the GRX di2 levers some time, specifically for that hood shape. And, if I upgraded the gravel bike, I will have these extra parts, so I will need an "all road" frame on which to store them :).

Re: All-road Bikes - are they the sweetspot, or the worst of both worlds? (probably yes.) [rob_bell] [ In reply to ]

Apr 27, 20 11:48

Post #10 of 46 (7132 views)

rob_bell wrote:

Even for a roubaix style event, i don't really get why an All Road bike would be better than something like an Exploro, Open, Aspiro, or other race-designed gravel bikes.

We might be splitting hairs. The "allroad" name was coined to describe bikes that are essentially road bikes with large clearances, to contrast them with gnarlier machines that use a more MTB-like geometry or beefed-up touring bikes. They're not really different from gravel bikes, they're a type of gravel bike. The Exploro and Open UP arguably fit within the allroad umbrella.

Re: All-road Bikes - are they the sweetspot, or the worst of both worlds? (probably yes.) [brando] [ In reply to ]

Apr 27, 20 11:55

Post #11 of 46 (7117 views)

brando wrote:

My personal thoughts: I think I would enjoy one for big days of up and down on paved and gravel roads, being a bit lighter and efficient than the gravel bike but with lower gearing and bigger tires than my road bike. And if I ever did a race that was like a 70/30 split of pavement and dirt, where the gravel bike is overkill but the road bike can beat you up a bit (BWR, etc).

If you already have road and gravel bikes, I'd just get another set of wheels for the gravel bike, with tires spec'd for the tweener category rides.

But if you'd rather have an entire bike for that, then...

Re: All-road Bikes - are they the sweetspot, or the worst of both worlds? (probably yes.) [rruff] [ In reply to ]

Apr 27, 20 12:44

Post #12 of 46 (7057 views)

Ha. I started the thread partly because I think about getting something in between, but also because I think it's an interesting spot on the road-gravel spectrum. Within Allied for instance, if you've got an Able and an All Road, when do you ride each and how do you set them up? It probably doesn't matter which I'm on as I ride off into the weeds and down a rabbit hole here, but sometimes I can't help it.

Re: All-road Bikes - are they the sweetspot, or the worst of both worlds? (probably yes.) [HTupolev] [ In reply to ]

Apr 27, 20 12:46

Post #13 of 46 (7049 views)

HTupolev wrote:

The "allroad" name was coined to describe bikes that are essentially road bikes with large clearances, to contrast them with gnarlier machines that use a more MTB-like geometry or beefed-up touring bikes. They're not really different from gravel bikes, they're a type of gravel bike.

Well put!

Re: All-road Bikes - are they the sweetspot, or the worst of both worlds? (probably yes.) [brando] [ In reply to ]

Apr 27, 20 13:26

Post #14 of 46 (6957 views)

Cervelo C3

Cervelo has rarely made any mistakes and I would not call the C3 a mistake, it was how they found their way to the Aspero, but the Aspero does fall into the same group as the Expoloro and maybe the Open. Interesting that Gerard Vroomen, indirectly or directly associated with all three!!

For years I have been advocating for triathletes that have full-on TT/Tri bikes, to look at some of these bikes, as their road-bike. Up until recently, most triathletes who have bought road bikes, have almost always opted for an aero road bike - because aero is always faster and better, right? :-)

For get about that, get one of these All Road bikes - you have SO much more range with what you can do. Few triathletes are racing criteriums and licensed category road racing. They are doing Group Rides. They are entering Gran Fondos. They are doing Charity Bike rides. They are often putting long road miles in, in the off season. They might do a Gravel Ride/Race. They can do ALL of the previous, with an All Road bike, but the aero-road bike will only be able to do a little bit of that.

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Re: All-road Bikes - are they the sweetspot, or the worst of both worlds? (probably yes.) [rob_bell] [ In reply to ]

Apr 27, 20 13:32

Post #15 of 46 (6944 views)

I've been thinking of selling my CX/gravel bike and my road bike and just getting an Exploro.

After getting taken out in another stupid crash, I finally gave up road racing.
However, I do like to do fondo's and mix it up near the front (until I get eventually dropped, lol).
I'm also an avid gravel and mixed-surface rider.
Does the Exploro ride well enough on the pavement? Seems like the handling might be a bit slow?

Re: All-road Bikes - are they the sweetspot, or the worst of both worlds? (probably yes.) [HTupolev] [ In reply to ]

Apr 27, 20 14:09

Post #16 of 46 (6886 views)

HTupolev wrote:

We might be splitting hairs. The "allroad" name was coined to describe bikes that are essentially road bikes with large clearances, to contrast them with gnarlier machines that use a more MTB-like geometry or beefed-up touring bikes. They're not really different from gravel bikes, they're a type of gravel bike. The Exploro and Open UP arguably fit within the allroad umbrella.

I don't know, there seems to be an emerging niche-between-the-niches of bikes that have clerance for something more than the 32c tire, which has become the defacto standard tire for disc brake "endurance road" bikes, while not quite room for the larger tires which are becoming the gravel bike norm (700x40c and larger),...Wait, isn't that a "Cyclocross" bike? No, theses have geometries that are more pavement-focused; more like endurance road bikes with tire clearance in the 34-38c range. These are bikes that are pavement biased, but can hack some occasional moderate gravel use, and even regular "groomed gravel" use. A few examples I can think of include the latest Trek Domane carbon, the Giant Contend AR, the T-Lab R3 Omni, and the Enigma Etape. Some are calling this niche "All Road." Giant even uses the "AR" designation.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

Last edited by: gary p: Apr 27, 20 14:13

Re: All-road Bikes - are they the sweetspot, or the worst of both worlds? (probably yes.) [brando] [ In reply to ]

Apr 27, 20 14:22

Post #17 of 46 (6867 views)

I opted to build an Aspero 2x GRX specifically to be a go anywhere bike. All of our vacations are cycling vacations and like the idea of riding road and gravel. Swapping tires or bringing a second set of tires was my justification for this +1.

I absolutely love it. My position is exactly the same as on my S5 which was a plus. I opted to go a bit overboard on the build which kept it pretty light at just under 19lbs.

Last edited by: TOTRI: Apr 27, 20 14:48

Re: All-road Bikes - are they the sweetspot, or the worst of both worlds? (probably yes.) [gary p] [ In reply to ]

Apr 27, 20 14:27

Post #18 of 46 (6858 views)

gary p wrote:

I don't know, there seems to be an emerging niche-between-the-niches of bikes that have clerance for something more than the 32c tire, which has become the defacto standard tire for disc brake "endurance road" bikes, while not quite room for the larger tires which are becoming the gravel bike norm (700x40c and larger),...Wait, isn't that a "Cyclocross" bike? No, theses have geometries that are more pavement-focused; more like endurance road bikes with tire clearance in the 34-38c range. These are bikes that are pavement biased, but can hack some occasional moderate gravel use, and even regular "groomed gravel" use. A few examples I can think of include the latest Trek Domane carbon, the Giant Contend AR, the T-Lab R3 Omni, and the Enigma Etape. Some are calling this niche "All Road." Giant even uses the "AR" designation.

These bikes can definitely be called allroad bikes, but I don't know how designating them in this manner decreases the degree to which something like the Open UP can also be described by the moniker; all of them are trying to maintain road mannerisms while providing more clearance than road bikes typically provide. I mean, it's not like a Domane has less trail or shorter chainstays than the Open, and its 700c tire clearance rating is only a hair lower.

Re: All-road Bikes - are they the sweetspot, or the worst of both worlds? (probably yes.) [brando] [ In reply to ]

Apr 27, 20 14:54

Post #19 of 46 (6810 views)

I can’t think of any situation where I would want to ride one of these bikes versus my Open UP. It replaced a Cervelo R3 for me and while I loved riding that bike for 4+ years, I haven’t missed it. Not on climbs or sprints or smooth tarmac and definitely not on descents, or on dirt, light gravel Sections

Matt

Re: All-road Bikes - are they the sweetspot, or the worst of both worlds? (probably yes.) [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]

Apr 27, 20 14:55

Post #20 of 46 (6809 views)

NordicSkier wrote:

I've been thinking of selling my CX/gravel bike and my road bike and just getting an Exploro.

After getting taken out in another stupid crash, I finally gave up road racing.
However, I do like to do fondo's and mix it up near the front (until I get eventually dropped, lol).
I'm also an avid gravel and mixed-surface rider.
Does the Exploro ride well enough on the pavement? Seems like the handling might be a bit slow?

The Exploro does very well on pavement. It's the bike i put most of my miles on, and mostly on pavement. I haven't tried anything less than 32c tires on the exploro. I don't know how it would handle with 25s, for instance. The trail much feel weird. But there are enough fast 30c+ road tires now (like the GP5000TL) that you can still have a fast tire AND have the geometry for the Exploro still work well.

I like in Oklahoma, so it's not like I'm descending mountains on it all day. However, I've done some mountain descents on it in Colorado and Utah and it feels great.

Re: All-road Bikes - are they the sweetspot, or the worst of both worlds? (probably yes.) [brando] [ In reply to ]

Apr 27, 20 15:14

Post #21 of 46 (6785 views)

HTupolev wrote:

gary p wrote:

I don't know, there seems to be an emerging niche-between-the-niches of bikes that have clerance for something more than the 32c tire, which has become the defacto standard tire for disc brake "endurance road" bikes, while not quite room for the larger tires which are becoming the gravel bike norm (700x40c and larger),...Wait, isn't that a "Cyclocross" bike? No, theses have geometries that are more pavement-focused; more like endurance road bikes with tire clearance in the 34-38c range. These are bikes that are pavement biased, but can hack some occasional moderate gravel use, and even regular "groomed gravel" use. A few examples I can think of include the latest Trek Domane carbon, the Giant Contend AR, the T-Lab R3 Omni, and the Enigma Etape. Some are calling this niche "All Road." Giant even uses the "AR" designation.

These bikes can definitely be called allroad bikes, but I don't know how designating them in this manner decreases the degree to which something like the Open UP can also be described by the moniker; all of them are trying to maintain road mannerisms while providing more clearance than road bikes typically provide. I mean, it's not like a Domane has less trail or shorter chainstays than the Open, and its 700c tire clearance rating is only a hair lower.

Chemist wrote:

I can’t think of any situation where I would want to ride one of these bikes versus my Open UP. It replaced a Cervelo R3 for me and while I loved riding that bike for 4+ years, I haven’t missed it. Not on climbs or sprints or smooth tarmac and definitely not on descents, or on dirt, light gravel Sections

Ok, so the Open UP has come up a few times, obviously because it's one of the best gravel bikes and it can do a lot - and it does seem to have a lot of the "all road" traits too.

So, other direction: If you have the Open UP or something similar, have you ever found yourself in a situation where you wanted a more rugged/gravelly bike than UP, aka something like the Open WIDE, that can take bigger tires and handle the roughest "roads"? But it would be 1x specific and probably not climb, sprint or ride smooth tarmac as nicely as your UP.

Re: All-road Bikes - are they the sweetspot, or the worst of both worlds? (probably yes.) [HTupolev] [ In reply to ]

Apr 27, 20 15:38

Post #22 of 46 (6757 views)

HTupolev wrote:

These bikes can definitely be called allroad bikes, but I don't know how designating them in this manner decreases the degree to which something like the Open UP can also be described by the moniker; all of them are trying to maintain road mannerisms while providing more clearance than road bikes typically provide. I mean, it's not like a Domane has less trail or shorter chainstays than the Open, and its 700c tire clearance rating is only a hair lower.

So maybe the U.P. fits the category. It's not like 700x39c is the absolute line of demarcation. The boundaries are fuzzy, and moving. 700x40c used to be fairly common as a gravel bike tire limit. Now, if you can't at least fit a 700x45c, some won't take the bike as a serious gravel option, even if that might not make sense. In the case of the U.P. with is it's ability to clear very wide 650b tires, it makes no sense.

The U.P really does seem to be extremely versatility. Is there anything else out there with clearance 2.1" wide tires that also manages to keep the chainstays that short?

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

Re: All-road Bikes - are they the sweetspot, or the worst of both worlds? (probably yes.) [brando] [ In reply to ]

Apr 27, 20 16:30

Post #23 of 46 (6694 views)

My personal preference is that if I’m riding somewhere where I’d want wider rubber than the UP allows, I want to be on a mountain bike with a flat bar, (at least) front suspension, etc

Matt

Re: All-road Bikes - are they the sweetspot, or the worst of both worlds? (probably yes.) [gary p] [ In reply to ]

Apr 27, 20 16:48

Post #24 of 46 (6681 views)

gary p wrote:

So maybe the U.P. fits the category. It's not like 700x39c is the absolute line of demarcation. The boundaries are fuzzy, and moving. 700x40c used to be fairly common as a gravel bike tire limit.

Tire clearance is just one thing separating various types of gravel bikes from traditional road bikes. In terms of where the boundary between "allroad" and other styles of gravel bike exists, I'd argue it's more useful to look at other aspects of geometry. If someone designed a gravel bike with a cross-country fit, a huge front-center, 80mm of trail, and wide highly-flared handlebars, I'd argue it's more of a rigid drop-bar MTB than an allroad bike even if it was limited to 35mm tires.

Quote:

In the case of the U.P. with is it's ability to clear very wide 650b tires, it makes no sense.

Depending on the gravel, it can make plenty of sense. Rough surfaces can demand wide tires without really need a gnarly bike designed for technical riding.

Quote:

Is there anything else out there with clearance 2.1" wide tires that also manages to keep the chainstays that short?

The Open WIDE has the same chainstay length and can fit 2.4" tires. :P
(Obviously it's also more limiting in terms of cranks and whatnot, though.)

The 3T Exploro can.

Chainstay length is funny, though. I actually think that minimizing it is probably more important for gravel than for paved road. Short chainstays can help rear wheel traction on climbs, especially out of the saddle, and they minimize the divergence between the path of the front tire and the rear tire, useful when weaving around big chunks.

Re: All-road Bikes - are they the sweetspot, or the worst of both worlds? (probably yes.) [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]

Apr 27, 20 16:54

Post #25 of 46 (6670 views)

Seems like the handling might be a bit slow?

I guy riding a 3T Exploro won the Canadian Master's CX Championships (40 - 45) on a pretty tough, tight and technical course last year. Seemed to handle well enough for him!

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

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