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Affordable High-rise Aero Extension Options for Praying Mantis Position?
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I've been looking into options for bringing the hands up (can't angle up the aero extension clamps on the Trinity). Already using the Zipp Vuka Evo 110, hands not high enough, too much air coming in above the hands and under the chin even with turtling, so I've been looking at photos of TT and Tri positions with the praying mantis position, and trying to find solutions. The USE hi-rise bars haven't been available for quite a while, and D2Z are too expensive.

I understand we can flip ski bends around, but then the horizontal section may be too short (would be in my case, need to get the hands out farther, I have really long arms).

So...what affordable options have you found? Thank you.
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Re: Affordable High-rise Aero Extension Options for Praying Mantis Position? [Super D] [ In reply to ]
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The Speedshop Ultimate is also 110mm. My PD Carbon Stryke has some rise but I can't find the spec.

This is an obvious question but can you tip them up on the basebar? I think I could make a prying mantis position with my Carbon Stryke aerobars by angling them up. Most superbikes don't allow that adjustment though.

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Madison photographer Timothy Hughes | Instagram
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Re: Affordable High-rise Aero Extension Options for Praying Mantis Position? [Super D] [ In reply to ]
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got those PD 35a in 400mm length and flipped 'em just to fiddle around with mantis position. Running mechanical so had to drill two holes. No issues, doing what they are intended to do.

https://www.bike24.de/p1275890.html
Last edited by: BummTschack: Jul 28, 18 9:37
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Re: Affordable High-rise Aero Extension Options for Praying Mantis Position? [Timtek] [ In reply to ]
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Timtek wrote:
The Speedshop Ultimate is also 110mm. My PD Carbon Stryke has some rise but I can't find the spec.

This is an obvious question but can you tip them up on the basebar? I think I could make a prying mantis position with my Carbon Stryke aerobars by angling them up. Most superbikes don't allow that adjustment though.

Nope, as mentioned, no way to angle up the clamps on my bike.
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Re: Affordable High-rise Aero Extension Options for Praying Mantis Position? [Super D] [ In reply to ]
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Are you doing this for the track/velodrome strictly or also out on the roads as well?

If A you're probably on the right track, for the roads you may bo on the slower road if the numerous wind tunnel tests we've done are an indication

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Affordable High-rise Aero Extension Options for Praying Mantis Position? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
Are you doing this for the track/velodrome strictly or also out on the roads as well?

If A you're probably on the right track, for the roads you may bo on the slower road if the numerous wind tunnel tests we've done are an indication

Road, time trial, no track yet, but that's next on the list (on another bike). Trying to modify my hand position upward a bit, influenced by Matt Bottrill's positioning. Perhaps praying mantis is poor use of terminology on my part, as his hands aren't extremely high, just higher than most. I've been experimenting every month, and when I'm stacking my hands and lowering my head, I can feel the airflow and turbulence dissipate from under my chin. I just need to bring my hands up a bit more than where they are now, so I can be a little more stable (with my hands stacked, I'm barely contacting the bar ends, just with pinky and thumb on one hand, not entirely comfortable with that).

I have 15-degree 3D-printed angled shims for my Trinity elbow cups, and can shave them down, to modify as needed. The next item is extensions which bring my hands up some. I'll assemble it all and then tune position over the course of a month of testing while doing laps on the local course.

When you talk about WT testing, I would be interested to learn about it in detail if possible, are there published results posted which I could read? I've read several WT testing posts, reviewed photos and videos, and love learning about this.

The thing I've realized while tuning position with elbow cup height, fore-aft, and width position, and hand position, is that everything matters---it's a multi-part puzzle to decode. When I lowered and then narrowed the position of my elbow cups, I then moved them forward as well to open up the chest more for easier breathing, and it additionally slacked the angle of my upper arms more which benefitted aero.

At this point, I'm tuning head and hand position, pretty comfortable with elbow height/width/fore-aft position. This photo below was from before I dropped another 20mm spacer out from under the elbow cups. Really comfortable with breathing, width, height in the front, fore-aft elbow position, and now experimenting with hands stacked (unlike in this photo where I have them side-by-side), I can feel there is some more hand work to do for a cohesive aero package. I stretch regularly, am flexible and can adjust to almost anything. So experimenting with positions has been really fun and educational, not painful. WT access would be great, I just don't have it for now. Meanwhile, I'm continuing to experiment, test on a consistent course, and feeling what the airflow is doing while out on the bike.

One of the things I'm keeping in mind through all of this as well is, aero is very important, but it's not the only thing. I have to be comfortable, breathe well, put out power well. Once I do some more aero tuning with hands on my own, I'm going to get tested in a controlled environment. Looking forward to that, but also enjoying learning without that benefit and using airflow I feel on the bike, speed, power and reasonable comfort (if you can call it that) to guide me. It's been almost comical as well, realizing how important saddle height, fore-aft, angle and even saddle design plays into all of this. I'm on my 4th saddle since January. That alone has been a journey. I keep thinking this is fascinating, rather than frustrating. It's fun problem solving to go faster.


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Re: Affordable High-rise Aero Extension Options for Praying Mantis Position? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I need somebody who is interested in making some track specific extensions, I've got some ideas I think would work great but nothing like it exists. Any ideas?

To the OP, the aluminum 3T J bends bend exactly the same as my USE 50°

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Affordable High-rise Aero Extension Options for Praying Mantis Position? [Super D] [ In reply to ]
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Super D wrote:
I understand we can flip ski bends around, but then the horizontal section may be too short (would be in my case, need to get the hands out farther, I have really long arms).
Surely all you need to do is use ski bends with less of an angle to put the end farther out in front at the same height.
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Re: Affordable High-rise Aero Extension Options for Praying Mantis Position? [Steve Irwin] [ In reply to ]
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Steve Irwin wrote:
Super D wrote:
I understand we can flip ski bends around, but then the horizontal section may be too short (would be in my case, need to get the hands out farther, I have really long arms).
Surely all you need to do is use ski bends with less of an angle to put the end farther out in front at the same height.

They would need to be longer, the lower the angle is, in order to keep hands at the same height. Best thing is to get hand height dialed and then fore-aft position, but the length to adjust has to be there. That’s why the hi-rise extensions are made the way they are, nicely adjustable.
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Re: Affordable High-rise Aero Extension Options for Praying Mantis Position? [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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Morelock wrote:
...to the OP, the aluminum 3T J bends bend exactly the same as my USE 50°


So not the ski bends, these? https://www.3t.bike/...rt-bend-pro-273.html
Last edited by: Super D: Jul 28, 18 16:27
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Re: Affordable High-rise Aero Extension Options for Praying Mantis Position? [Super D] [ In reply to ]
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nope, just these guys. Got them side by side with my Tula 50's, exactly the same (at least the old ones I have are)


*measuring closer, they might actually be a mm or two shorter at the top hard to tell without them mounted in the bar, really close though.

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
Last edited by: Morelock: Jul 28, 18 16:45
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Re: Affordable High-rise Aero Extension Options for Praying Mantis Position? [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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Morelock wrote:
nope, just these guys. Got them side by side with my Tula 50's, exactly the same (at least the old ones I have are)


*measuring closer, they might actually be a mm or two shorter at the top hard to tell without them mounted in the bar, really close though.



Interesting!... So the Tula bars you have are not the hi-rise, just ski bends flipped around? Like the ones at the top in this group? (The reason I wasn't looking at the 3T's was because the hand grip length looked a little too short to flip around and then still have some fore-aft adjustment.)


Last edited by: Super D: Jul 28, 18 16:47
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Re: Affordable High-rise Aero Extension Options for Praying Mantis Position? [Super D] [ In reply to ]
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that's what I've got yeah.
I didn't realize USE had started making the high rise specifics.

From my measurements on the 3T's, if you flipped them around you've got about 10cm of workable space (from end to where the bend starts)
Then if you figure you need at least 3-4cm minimum insertion, you've got around around 6cm before you start angling up. On that picture I attached that'd start right where my computer mount is.

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Affordable High-rise Aero Extension Options for Praying Mantis Position? [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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I had a guy I coached with abnormally long forearms go to a welding shop and have them make extensions for him once.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Affordable High-rise Aero Extension Options for Praying Mantis Position? [Super D] [ In reply to ]
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Super D wrote:
They would need to be longer, the lower the angle is, in order to keep hands at the same height.
You mentioned them being flipped around, so I assumed you were clamping the short end and holding the long end, which is what the vast majority of fast riders are doing nowadays. I'd be stunned if the long end weren't long enough, e.g. this guy is huge and seems to manage fine:

https://www.flickr.com/...m-72157668053014007/
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Re: Affordable High-rise Aero Extension Options for Praying Mantis Position? [Super D] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
I would be interested to learn about it in detail if possible, are there published results posted which I could read? I've read several WT testing posts, reviewed photos and videos, and love learning about this.


IIRC I've got everything that's ever been published about us here. OUr facebook page is here

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Affordable High-rise Aero Extension Options for Praying Mantis Position? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
I had a guy I coached with abnormally long forearms go to a welding shop and have them make extensions for him once.

The shapes and angles probably have to be carbon unfortunately, otherwise my trusty pipe bender would be put to action

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Affordable High-rise Aero Extension Options for Praying Mantis Position? [Steve Irwin] [ In reply to ]
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Steve Irwin wrote:
Super D wrote:
They would need to be longer, the lower the angle is, in order to keep hands at the same height.

You mentioned them being flipped around, so I assumed you were clamping the short end and holding the long end, which is what the vast majority of fast riders are doing nowadays. I'd be stunned if the long end weren't long enough, e.g. this guy is huge and seems to manage fine:

https://www.flickr.com/...m-72157668053014007/


I think we misunderstood each other. Yes, clamping the short end is what I intend. You said using a lower angle would put the hands out farther but at the same height which isn't the case, unless in addition to the lower angle, that section is also longer---otherwise the lower angle would put the hands out farther, but also at a lower height. Basically, if I don't go with a hi-rise extension, but opt for a ski bend instead (mounted flipped around), I'll need to go with a longer handgrip section, so when I flip them around, there will be more fore-aft adjustability. Hope that makes sense now, I'm sure I didn't describe what I meant well earlier. :)

Also, it looks to me that the photo you shared is of a rider using the hi-rise extensions which are not available (those are the ones I want, but they're out of stock and no timeframe when they'll come in). So I'm trying to come up with other options.
Last edited by: Super D: Jul 28, 18 22:14
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Re: Affordable High-rise Aero Extension Options for Praying Mantis Position? [Super D] [ In reply to ]
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I don't understand why flipped ski bends aren't long enough. You have angled pads, so don't need to rest your elbows on them. If Zipp 110s don't get you high enough, then you'd need 40 or 50 deg.

BTW, your "perception" that the way the air is hitting your face is bad... just ain't how it works. You need to field test. If you want to try a bunch of different positions, you'd be much better off with bars that are more adjustable as well; ideally independent pad reach plus pad+extension tilt.
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Re: Affordable High-rise Aero Extension Options for Praying Mantis Position? [Super D] [ In reply to ]
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Super D wrote:
I think we misunderstood each other. Yes, clamping the short end is what I intend. You said using a lower angle would put the hands out farther but at the same height which isn't the case, unless in addition to the lower angle, that section is also longer---otherwise the lower angle would put the hands out farther, but also at a lower height.
Okay, I was also assuming that you'd actually have to cut the long bit down, so the same height would be easily achievable with either angle. I'm using the standard USE ski bends in reverse, and had to cut about 10cm off the long end!
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Re: Affordable High-rise Aero Extension Options for Praying Mantis Position? [Super D] [ In reply to ]
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USE via total cycling are available now, I just did the exact same thing and I’m very happy with the 40 high rise bars
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Re: Affordable High-rise Aero Extension Options for Praying Mantis Position? [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
I don't understand why flipped ski bends aren't long enough. You have angled pads, so don't need to rest your elbows on them. If Zipp 110s don't get you high enough, then you'd need 40 or 50 deg.

BTW, your "perception" that the way the air is hitting your face is bad... just ain't how it works. You need to field test. If you want to try a bunch of different positions, you'd be much better off with bars that are more adjustable as well; ideally independent pad reach plus pad+extension tilt.

If I flip ski bends and the handgrips were short, I wouldn't have much fore-aft adjustability (this is why I wanted the hi-rise ones which have a longer bottom section). Was planning on the 40-degree hi-rise bars, so I'd get 40-degree ski bends as an option if that can work reasonably well. The Zipp Vuka Evo 100s (carbon) can't be flipped around, the Aluminas could, but I don't have those. The ones I have are contoured/tapered in the hand area, no longer round tubed.

I agree, I do need an adjustable setup, but I don't have a way to tilt, my clamps don't do it on the Trinity (very narrow fit range on the Trinity cockpit as Dan has pointed out in his articles). The way I'm going to get the elbow cups tilted up is with angled spacers/shims under the cups above the clamps. If I had a way to adjust tilt, that'd be great. Probably the only way to do this on the Trinity would be to have a set of 10, 15 and 20 degree angled elbow cup spacers.

In terms of what I'm feeling when I'm on the bike with airflow...When I wasn't turtling and was using the stock S-bends, there was quite a bit of air flow coming into the upper chest under my chin, and strong turbulence. Turtling cut down on that. Switching from stock S-bends to the Vuka Evo 110s helped quite a bit more. Then when I stack my hands, even more. I don't feel nearly as much air flowing into the pocket under my chin where the upper chest is, it gets redirected around by my ears and over my shoulders. At least that's what it feels and sounds like to me. I used to race DH on skis, so it's somewhat related, you can change hand and forearm position while in the tuck and feel the airflow changes. Anyway, there is only so far I can take this without controlled testing. (I'm testing doing laps on Fiesta Island in San Diego, looking at speed, power and hr data, but the wind, humidity and temperature changes, so this is not a controlled environment.) But I'm enjoying everything, keep tweaking the fit and position, and keep getting faster, so that's been fun. I would really like a more easily adjustable cockpit, but that'll have to be on a different bike. The Trinity requires changing parts, adding shims, changing bars, swapping extensions, as there is not easy adjustability. I'm working around the limitations of the bike...but, it seems I'm getting very close to a good position I can keep for a while.
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Re: Affordable High-rise Aero Extension Options for Praying Mantis Position? [Steve Irwin] [ In reply to ]
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Steve Irwin wrote:
Super D wrote:
I think we misunderstood each other. Yes, clamping the short end is what I intend. You said using a lower angle would put the hands out farther but at the same height which isn't the case, unless in addition to the lower angle, that section is also longer---otherwise the lower angle would put the hands out farther, but also at a lower height.

Okay, I was also assuming that you'd actually have to cut the long bit down, so the same height would be easily achievable with either angle. I'm using the standard USE ski bends in reverse, and had to cut about 10cm off the long end!

That's a good assumption. I haven't tried them yet, so I'm sure if/when I do, I'll run into a similar issue.
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Re: Affordable High-rise Aero Extension Options for Praying Mantis Position? [Clintred] [ In reply to ]
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Clintred wrote:
USE via total cycling are available now, I just did the exact same thing and I’m very happy with the 40 high rise bars

Wish I'd ordered mine a long time ago. When did you get them? Total Cycling shows 15-30 day ship, but USE doesn't have any stock, so no way to know when they'd be available.
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Re: Affordable High-rise Aero Extension Options for Praying Mantis Position? [Super D] [ In reply to ]
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Message use directly and tell them you have been messed around by total cycling, use sent me them directly after waiting for months from total cycling
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