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Aero wheels advice
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Hi

I'm after some help from all the aero gurus out there if I may.

I'm a 53 yo male, been a runner mainly over the last few years. But some niggling injuries has got me back into cycling, and with that an urge to take part in some duathlons.
Looking at recent results, I feel I could be competitive in my age group running wise, but my bike needs work!

I'm currently riding a 2010 Kestrel Airfoil Pro SL, with a HED 3 rear, and a Hunt 36 front. I've also got a Hunt 50 rear, but feel the Hed is faster.

I came across this wheel test recently:

https://www.hambini.com/...test-bicycle-wheels/

The author doesn't rate Hunt wheels that much so it got me thinking, as I need all the help I can get on the bike, what time gains, over say 40k, could I get by going to a disc rear and a Zipp 404 front, over my Hed 3 and Hunt 36 front?

I realise body position is paramount, and I'm working on that. Also training, which I'm also working on. But if I am losing a chunk of time with the Hunt front, I'm happy to invest in a faster wheel.

Thanks
Last edited by: Proby: Jul 14, 20 12:16
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Re: Aero wheels advice [Proby] [ In reply to ]
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Welcome to the world of duathlon!
Check this place out. Some great deals on HED wheelsets.
https://mybikeshop.com/...eelsets/aero-wheels/
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Re: Aero wheels advice [Dudaddy] [ In reply to ]
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Dudaddy wrote:
Welcome to the world of duathlon!
Check this place out. Some great deals on HED wheelsets.
https://mybikeshop.com/...eelsets/aero-wheels/

Thanks, looking forward to racing Du's again!
Wheels look good, but I'm in the UK, rather buy local.
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Re: Aero wheels advice [Proby] [ In reply to ]
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That reviewer is not thought-of very highly on this forum. That said, wheels are getting pretty similar across brands for similar depths. When I spoke with HED before buying my current wheels, they told me that a HED 3 is similar to their Jet 90. I went from a 60mm front and 90mm rear to a 90mm front and disc rear. I do not have the objective data, but it is a crapton faster. I suspect much of the speed difference is the disc, because a 60mm to 90mm front is not as dramatic a change as a rear disc.

If I were in your cycling shoes, I would jump to a rear disc. No brainer.

A Hunt 36 is pretty shallow for a front. Jumping to a 60 or 90 would buy you a decent chunk of speed.

The FLO website has a great table that compares the 40K gains for various wheel sizes. That is an excellent tool. The only thing understated there is the disc benefit. A disc improvement is greater than they publish.
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Re: Aero wheels advice [Proby] [ In reply to ]
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Variation between brands is almost negligible at this point (i.e. ENVE vs. Zipp vs. HED vs. Roval, etc.)

What matters most is depth. 36mm isn't deep at all for a front. Since the front is hitting the wind, it's far more important than the rear for aero gains. Go as deep as you're comfortable with. I like a 90mm up front, but it's a bit of a pain when winds are high. 60mm seems to be more stable and a more versatile option.

Disc or disc cover in the rear will add a bit of "free speed" as well. But your body is still ~75% of wind resistance that you have to overcome. So make sure that fit is dialed in
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Re: Aero wheels advice [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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exxxviii wrote:
That reviewer is not thought-of very highly on this forum. That said, wheels are getting pretty similar across brands for similar depths. When I spoke with HED before buying my current wheels, they told me that a HED 3 is similar to their Jet 90. I went from a 60mm front and 90mm rear to a 90mm front and disc rear. I do not have the objective data, but it is a crapton faster. I suspect much of the speed difference is the disc, because a 60mm to 90mm front is not as dramatic a change as a rear disc.

If I were in your cycling shoes, I would jump to a rear disc. No brainer.

A Hunt 36 is pretty shallow for a front. Jumping to a 60 or 90 would buy you a decent chunk of speed.

The FLO website has a great table that compares the 40K gains for various wheel sizes. That is an excellent tool. The only thing understated there is the disc benefit. A disc improvement is greater than they publish.

I did wonder what people's thoughts were on the reviewer, hence the link!

Thanks for the advice, I went for a 36 front as I'm slim, and get blown around a bit in cross winds. But reading up, it seems the deeper the rear, disc being better, the deeper front you can handle.
I had a pair of Zipp 404's a few years back, lovely wheels, but sadly sold on when I thought I'd no longer race again.

I will check out the Flo website.
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Re: Aero wheels advice [indianacyclist] [ In reply to ]
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indianacyclist wrote:
Variation between brands is almost negligible at this point (i.e. ENVE vs. Zipp vs. HED vs. Roval, etc.)

What matters most is depth. 36mm isn't deep at all for a front. Since the front is hitting the wind, it's far more important than the rear for aero gains. Go as deep as you're comfortable with. I like a 90mm up front, but it's a bit of a pain when winds are high. 60mm seems to be more stable and a more versatile option.

Disc or disc cover in the rear will add a bit of "free speed" as well. But your body is still ~75% of wind resistance that you have to overcome. So make sure that fit is dialed in

Thanks for reply, good advice, I think a 60mm front would be the max I could handle, I have used a HED Jet 9 on the front years ago, a very fast wheel, but no good for me in crosswinds!
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Re: Aero wheels advice [Proby] [ In reply to ]
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One big chance since the time of your 2010 Kestrel Airfoil Pro SL is the pivot toward wide wheels and tires. Some of these will not fit on earlier bikes, so confirm that...

In addition to getting more aero wheels, it is worth looking at the current crop of 25mm tires and latex tubes. The latest low rolling resistance tires and tubes can have almost as much benefit as the wheel upgrades you are considering. One of the reasons I love my HED wheels is that they are wide with deep interior volume. The tires ride so smoothly with way less fatigue than older narrower wheels and tires. And, the tires roll much faster.
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Re: Aero wheels advice [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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exxxviii wrote:
One big chance since the time of your 2010 Kestrel Airfoil Pro SL is the pivot toward wide wheels and tires. Some of these will not fit on earlier bikes, so confirm that...

In addition to getting more aero wheels, it is worth looking at the current crop of 25mm tires and latex tubes. The latest low rolling resistance tires and tubes can have almost as much benefit as the wheel upgrades you are considering. One of the reasons I love my HED wheels is that they are wide with deep interior volume. The tires ride so smoothly with way less fatigue than older narrower wheels and tires. And, the tires roll much faster.

Good call on the clearance, will check it out.
I've the HED 3 on the Kestrel now, with a 20mm tyre, I can try my Hunt 50 rear on the Kestrel, the Hunt is pretty wide, so will be a good test!
New tyres and latex tubes will be next on my list to look at, thanks for that.
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Re: Aero wheels advice [Proby] [ In reply to ]
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I'll try to answer the question asked. Given the likely width restrictions of wheels you have (the HED particularly), you can pretty much lookup legacy CRR data for whatever tires you run then go to Bicyclerollingresistance.com and put in what you could run on a "modern" width wheelset.

That will give you tangible watts you can plug into a speed calculator and get a speed and time difference.

You can try to wedge whatever tire on that thing that would fit the bike, but the shape of the tire mounted that way might not get the same gains as using the wider newer tires on a modern width wheel. I'll defer to the forum topic recently posted about the Zipp testing.

As far as aero gains, I'll leave that to the pros here for data. Deeper is faster if you can handle the bike and not soft pedal when scared. My personal experience is I like riding my disc more than the 90mm rear. It might be counter to good sense, but it feels more stable to me than the 90mm Flo rear.

I personally have used the 6+ in the front when more wind simply because if the old HED I had or a 90 front caused me to soft pedal and be scared during the race I would lose more time for that pause than what I gained running a 90. So, I now own a 6+, a 7 "express" that's 76mm, and a 9+.
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Re: Aero wheels advice [Proby] [ In reply to ]
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Proby wrote:
Thanks for reply, good advice, I think a 60mm front would be the max I could handle, I have used a HED Jet 9 on the front years ago, a very fast wheel, but no good for me in crosswinds!

IMO, it is very much possible to learn to handle a deeper front wheel in crosswinds - yes, they are harder to handle but not as bad as it appears the first ride or two.

My first deep front was a SRAM S80, back in 2010 when i was racing TTs more frequently. The first time i got hit by gusts was seriously scary. Now i live in a place with pretty strong winds coming off the sides (my main loop runs for about 30km next to the sea) and I find the wheels easy enough to handle.

But I am 80kg. My wife is 49kg and she sticks to 60mm fronts. She spent a fair bit of time with my 90s and found them too squirrely for her.


--
Those who are slower than me suck.
Those who are faster than me dope
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Re: Aero wheels advice [guadzilla] [ In reply to ]
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[/quote] IMO, it is very much possible to learn to handle a deeper front wheel in crosswinds - yes, they are harder to handle but not as bad as it appears the first ride or two.

My first deep front was a SRAM S80, back in 2010 when i was racing TTs more frequently. The first time i got hit by gusts was seriously scary. Now i live in a place with pretty strong winds coming off the sides (my main loop runs for about 30km next to the sea) and I find the wheels easy enough to handle.

But I am 80kg. My wife is 49kg and she sticks to 60mm fronts. She spent a fair bit of time with my 90s and found them too squirrely for her.[/quote]
Yes I agree, in the past I hardly trained on race wheels, always saved them for 'best' as it were, race day only normally!
I'm looking for a disc and a Zipp 404, or similar right now.
Once I have them, I will be out training on them.
Cheers
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Re: Aero wheels advice [Proby] [ In reply to ]
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I sent you a private message.
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Re: Aero wheels advice [Proby] [ In reply to ]
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I would add brake track material to your list of considerations. If you are going to train on aluminum brake tracks then the HED Jets are great because you don’t have to worry about swapping brake pads.

I got lazy and tried doing a TT by just cleaning the surface of some dual purpose pads (Swiss Stop yellow if my memory is correct) and tossing in some HED Stinger carbon wheels. HED warned about NOT using different pads than their recommendation (Cork pads) and I figured out why, the hard way. As I came down a hill to a 180 degree turn around I cranked on the brakes. Everything was fine until just as I was getting ready to ease off the brakes and enter the corner. Just at that moment the pad temperature went from OK to not OK and the front wheel started to lock up. I kept the bike up, but just about soiled myself. Another mph of entry speed and the lockup could have caused an accident. I also had a layer of melted pad goo on the brake track that was nearly impossible to clean off.

The other issue is to not ignore tire choice. Bad tires totally ruin the best wheels Something like the tubeless Conti 5000s are both fast and durable.
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Re: Aero wheels advice [Proby] [ In reply to ]
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Zipp 404 and Disc is a great combo for time trials and triathlons. So I would feel confident with that choice in almost all weather conditions except possibly extreme crosswinds.
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Re: Aero wheels advice [Proby] [ In reply to ]
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The best cost/drag improvement for me was to refine my body position, and then get a disc cover for the rear. The rear disc cover over a 38mm rear wheel provided a tangible difference in my seven minute flat road tests @280 watts with no cars. Got one from wheelbuilder, cost $80 or so. Doesn't look very pro, but much cheaper than a disc!
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