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Re: Aero sensors for dummies thread [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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I put this in another thread, put it's about the value of a CDA meter in a race situation, without a fixed protocol.


https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...tring=latex#p7799575

I will redo the TT in a week or two and see if I can get some gains by focusing on head position.
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Re: Aero sensors for dummies thread [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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Marc was nice enough to join me for a chat about "The State of Aero Testing Devices" on the Cycling Time Trial Podcast, find here:

https://cyclingtimetrialpodcast.libsyn.com/...tate-of-aero-devices

Marc was more than kind about me goofing up the pronunciation of his last name!
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Re: Aero sensors for dummies thread [flocrest] [ In reply to ]
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Marc Gravel Lean sounds good to me :D

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Aero sensors for dummies thread [flocrest] [ In reply to ]
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flocrest wrote:
Marc was nice enough to join me for a chat about "The State of Aero Testing Devices" on the Cycling Time Trial Podcast, find here:

https://cyclingtimetrialpodcast.libsyn.com/...tate-of-aero-devices

Marc was more than kind about me goofing up the pronunciation of his last name!


Mark and Marc: that was a fun listen!

[Edited to add] I've been spending so much time in France I should change the pronunciation of my last name to "Shoong."
Last edited by: RChung: Aug 28, 22 18:16
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Re: Aero sensors for dummies thread [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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RChung wrote:
flocrest wrote:
Marc was nice enough to join me for a chat about "The State of Aero Testing Devices" on the Cycling Time Trial Podcast, find here:

https://cyclingtimetrialpodcast.libsyn.com/...tate-of-aero-devices

Marc was more than kind about me goofing up the pronunciation of his last name!


Mark and Marc: that was a fun listen!

[Edited to add] I've been spending so much time in France I should change the pronunciation of my last name to "Shoong."

Merci Row Bear Shoong
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Re: Aero sensors for dummies thread [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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What's the techie reason the exports even from Garmin of any file type you could open in Notepad and then process thru Excel don't include the Notio Garmin fields but the Notio cloud does?

If the added fields appear on the Garmin, why doesn't the data appear in the files exported from Garmin Connect (TCX, etc....)?

I just have this long term concern if Notio bites the dust I won't have a way to use the thing since it appears to rely so heavily on the cloud interface to work with GC Notio or exporting the raw files.
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Re: Aero sensors for dummies thread [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
What's the techie reason the exports even from Garmin of any file type you could open in Notepad and then process thru Excel don't include the Notio Garmin fields but the Notio cloud does?

If the added fields appear on the Garmin, why doesn't the data appear in the files exported from Garmin Connect (TCX, etc....)?

I just have this long term concern if Notio bites the dust I won't have a way to use the thing since it appears to rely so heavily on the cloud interface to work with GC Notio or exporting the raw files.

Can't you send from the Notio to email or through airdrop to a machine running GC ? Is the cloud mandatory ?

It was not a few years ago but may have changed
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Re: Aero sensors for dummies thread [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:
burnthesheep wrote:
What's the techie reason the exports even from Garmin of any file type you could open in Notepad and then process thru Excel don't include the Notio Garmin fields but the Notio cloud does?

If the added fields appear on the Garmin, why doesn't the data appear in the files exported from Garmin Connect (TCX, etc....)?

I just have this long term concern if Notio bites the dust I won't have a way to use the thing since it appears to rely so heavily on the cloud interface to work with GC Notio or exporting the raw files.


Can't you send from the Notio to email or through airdrop to a machine running GC ? Is the cloud mandatory ?

It was not a few years ago but may have changed

I forgot about the email to yourself part from the "Notio Files" part of the app. I did bypass the website one day that way because I had forgotten my login. So there is "that".

Still, if the app "breaks" someday for some reason due to IOS updates or support issues (kinda like Zwift dropping stuff), you'd then have zero way to get the data off.

They should make it so the Garmin file (since you have the app to add the fields) includes the fields when your ride is over also.

Key thing is, sometimes I'd like to on the spot look at stuff to decide what to do if testing fit stuff. Sometimes I don't have a data connection, would be nice to use the USB port of either the Notio or the Garmin and get the data.
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Re: Aero sensors for dummies thread [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
marcag wrote:
burnthesheep wrote:
What's the techie reason the exports even from Garmin of any file type you could open in Notepad and then process thru Excel don't include the Notio Garmin fields but the Notio cloud does?

If the added fields appear on the Garmin, why doesn't the data appear in the files exported from Garmin Connect (TCX, etc....)?

I just have this long term concern if Notio bites the dust I won't have a way to use the thing since it appears to rely so heavily on the cloud interface to work with GC Notio or exporting the raw files.


Can't you send from the Notio to email or through airdrop to a machine running GC ? Is the cloud mandatory ?

It was not a few years ago but may have changed


I forgot about the email to yourself part from the "Notio Files" part of the app. I did bypass the website one day that way because I had forgotten my login. So there is "that".

Still, if the app "breaks" someday for some reason due to IOS updates or support issues (kinda like Zwift dropping stuff), you'd then have zero way to get the data off.

They should make it so the Garmin file (since you have the app to add the fields) includes the fields when your ride is over also.

Key thing is, sometimes I'd like to on the spot look at stuff to decide what to do if testing fit stuff. Sometimes I don't have a data connection, would be nice to use the USB port of either the Notio or the Garmin and get the data.

yes, if there is no more app, you are screwed. That being said, that applies for most companies. Notio is joined at the hip with Argon. They would, in the worst case, provide minimal support. I would probably be less worried about this than any other vendor.

As for the Garmin, putting the data into the Garmin file while riding is difficult and unreliable. Maintaining a connection for a 2 hour ride with 0 drops isn't likely. For example, you can't lose connection, regain correction and send data for the period of disconnect.

Merging the data post ride would be possible if Garmin enabled it. They talked about allowing this in their "industry protocol", which ended up going nowhere.

A USB option is a good idea. A cloud connection should be an option not a requirement.

How recent was your last firmware or app refresh ?
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Re: Aero sensors for dummies thread [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:
RChung wrote:
flocrest wrote:
Marc was nice enough to join me for a chat about "The State of Aero Testing Devices" on the Cycling Time Trial Podcast, find here:

https://cyclingtimetrialpodcast.libsyn.com/...tate-of-aero-devices

Marc was more than kind about me goofing up the pronunciation of his last name!


Mark and Marc: that was a fun listen!

[Edited to add] I've been spending so much time in France I should change the pronunciation of my last name to "Shoong."


Merci Row Bear Shoong

I really enjoyed the podcast. You did a great job explaining the different products without being overly critical.

I am glad you mentioned the lack of updates from Notio. They had laid out quite a few features that they planned to develop, but it has been awfully quiet for the last 18 months or so. Let’s hope they continue to at least maintain the current functionality.
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Re: Aero sensors for dummies thread [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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grumpier.mike wrote:

I really enjoyed the podcast. You did a great job explaining the different products without being overly critical.

I am glad you mentioned the lack of updates from Notio. They had laid out quite a few features that they planned to develop, but it has been awfully quiet for the last 18 months or so. Let’s hope they continue to at least maintain the current functionality.

In what form did they lay out the features ?
Kind of like a futures list ?
Where/how did they publish it ?
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Re: Aero sensors for dummies thread [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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enjoyed the podcast Marc.

How did the integrated bar/sensor go?

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Aero sensors for dummies thread [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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Morelock wrote:
enjoyed the podcast Marc.

How did the integrated bar/sensor go?

It went quite well. We tried different permutations/combination of sensors and sensor placement.
In the process we found some much less expensive and smaller alternatives.

I sincerely believe prices need to come way down if we want to see this segment grow.
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Re: Aero sensors for dummies thread [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:
Morelock wrote:
enjoyed the podcast Marc.

How did the integrated bar/sensor go?


It went quite well. We tried different permutations/combination of sensors and sensor placement.
In the process we found some much less expensive and smaller alternatives.

I sincerely believe prices need to come way down if we want to see this segment grow.

sensors?
extensions?
or both?

agreed :)

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Aero sensors for dummies thread [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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Morelock wrote:
marcag wrote:
Morelock wrote:
enjoyed the podcast Marc.

How did the integrated bar/sensor go?


It went quite well. We tried different permutations/combination of sensors and sensor placement.
In the process we found some much less expensive and smaller alternatives.

I sincerely believe prices need to come way down if we want to see this segment grow.


sensors?
extensions?
or both?

agreed :)

Ha!

I find the whole extension thing ridiculous.
People pouring thousands into things they don't even know if they are in the right position to start with.
I get it that some people like BTS have properly tested before, but that is the exception, not the rule.
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Re: Aero sensors for dummies thread [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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yes the old chicken / egg dilemma again. How will you know if you test them, how will you test them if you never buy them :D

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Aero sensors for dummies thread [flocrest] [ In reply to ]
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Just listened to your excellent podcast - really interesting and I totally agree with Marc about the most important areas of development for aero devices.

I'm Barney Garrood, founder of Aerosensor (www.aerosensor.tech). As John Buckley (of Streamlines Aero) mentioned earlier in this thread, he and I started development some years ago before amicably diverging last year.

Our initial focus was on an accurate wind speed sensor, able to cover high wind yaw angles. We had both independently seen from our F1 days that traditional multi-hole pitots don't tend to perform well in low speed, high yaw conditions, such as hairpins. We have our theories why. We ended up patenting our probe shape which is now back in F1 running on two teams' cars this year, and as one of their aerodynamicists put it "for the first time ever we can trust low speed track aero".

Our second target was altitude measurement, and we spent an enormous amount of time looking at different ways to do this, tested many different barometers etc. We now have a system that works well, and resolves down to around 10cm. Of course in windier conditions this is more challenging, but in general outdoors over a 1km out and back we can achieve repeats within 1-1.5% on CdA and this is very much down to consistent altitude measurement.

Our third challenge was body position measurement. Many times we have seen rider position drift (typical lift) as they fatigue, which could easily wipe out small changes at the Velodrome. Our "Aerobody" device uses an optical device on the stem to measure head and chest height. Of course this is far from the whole picture but we have found it to be enough to improve consistency by an order of magnitude. Now I wouldn't want to test without it as rider position is potentially the biggest source of error.

We have developed "Aerodrome", which uses a wireless lap trigger at the velodrome to very accurately synchronise lap position. This allows us to reliably account for lean angle (knowing track geometry), and deliver CdA and laptime to the Garmin bike computer at the end of each lap. On an indoor velodrome, over a single lap we can achieve CdA repeatbility better than 1% with this system.

As Marc says, current systems are too hard to use to be an everyday training tool. Our objective is to make an aerodynamic device which can be used like a power meter. Aero testing should be part of every ride. Our devices are supported by a Garmin Connect IQ app, allowing all settings to be set with no need for extra phone apps or software. No post-processing is "necessary" but for those that would like to it is possible in GC, WKO and even excel. No dedicated calibration ride is necessary as the calibration factor is provided with each run - averaging on an out and back or over a lap of a velodrome or road circuit gives good results. This can then be used to post-correct data if absolute accuracy is important, but if all you want to know is which config is faster, then even this isn't necessary. For accurate aero testing I believe out and back testing will always give better results, but the rolling-average CdA value shown on the Garmin during general rides is plenty to see how your consistent your CdA is. We can also tell you other metrics, such as percentage of power consumed by aero, useful to know when it is most important to focus on your aero position, or where it will cost you less to take a breather and hydrate.

We are talking to other head unit manufacturers about getting support on their devices. Since the ANT+ aero profile, that John and I had spent an enormous amount of time on, this side of things has been frustrating.

On our current situation, we are doing an Indiegogo campaign as a means of pre-selling the first batch of products (with a 25% discount), which is now in its final week. The amount we are seeking is relatively low (£45k) as we have taken substantial investment in the last 6 months enabling us to proceed with tooling for production regardless. Indiegogo is not critical to our success but has been extremely useful to dip our toe in the water and get a better understanding of the market. We will start shipping products in February 2023.

By way of example, a couple of weeks ago I did a test with Matt Bottrill at an outdoor Velodrome (Halesowen), where we tested different aero helmets. Unfortunately it was pretty windy - 10-13mph so the wind was very variable around the track. However it was fairly consistent from run to run. Given the variation in yaw I wouldn't have a lot of confidence in absolute numbers, but relative difference between configs should be reasonable.

For each config we ran 8 x 400m laps. The repeatability was actually excellent (<0.5%) and is as much a testament to Matt's ability to hold his position as as anything else! Here are the results, just showing direct averages of the 8 laps for each "run". Other than this averaging, and application of a constant cp correction factor the data has had no other post-processing.
We did a direct repeat of baseline (runs 1-2), and also repeated the best helmet (runs 3-6).


Below are histograms of wind yaw angle (in degrees) and relative wind speed (positive headwind, negative tailwind) for each run.

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Re: Aero sensors for dummies thread [bgarrood] [ In reply to ]
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bgarrood wrote:
For each config we ran 8 x 400m laps. The repeatability was actually excellent (<0.5%) and is as much a testament to Matt's ability to hold his position as as anything else! Here are the results, just showing direct averages of the 8 laps for each "run". Other than this averaging, and application of a constant cp correction factor the data has had no other post-processing.
We did a direct repeat of baseline (runs 1-2), and also repeated the best helmet (runs 3-6).

Hi Barney. Thanks for the additional info. I have a couple of question about the 8 lap runs you describe above:

First, were those done at a relatively constant speed and/or power, or did you intentionally vary the speed? The reason I ask, is that if it was the former, then there may be a way to improve the estimates by doing an intentionally varying approach to better "pry apart" the aerodynamic and rolling resistance forces (due to them varying differently with speed).

Secondly, how are the averages calculated? Are they an average of the single lap values, an average of "moment by moment" calculations, a running 30s window average, or something else? One thing that Robert Chung showed me a long time ago was to take advantage of the separate data samples around a lap by considering averaging of all of the "overlapping" lap segments. I believe he refers to this as "bootstrapping" the data (He'll correct me if I stuffed that one ;-)

The plots I showed above from Adam Haile's spreadsheet from 2009 around the high school running track use both of those methods in the calculation. The laps themselves were run as starting from a relatively low speed and as a constantly increasing speed across the first 3 laps, followed by coasting for as long as possible in the last lap (while still "soft-pedaling" the legs around) and then minimal power to complete the lap at a slow speed. Then, when the algorithm analyzed each individual "overlapping lap" segment, there was a wide range of lap speeds, which helps to get quite good estimates of Crr and CdA.

Just a thought if you hadn't considered applying something like that :-)

Also, have you tried the "Tom Compton Challenge" test yet, like we talked about on the CT forum? It'll be neat to see the outcome of that. I have a feeling your setup will do quite well.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Aero sensors for dummies thread [bgarrood] [ In reply to ]
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I'm going to link back to this thread from a couple of years ago in which Barney, John, and Chris Morton all participated:
https://forum.slowtwitch.com/.../Velosense_P6750517/
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Re: Aero sensors for dummies thread [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Tom
Bike power and speed were roughly constant. We just fixed Crr, but you make a good point about testng at different speeds to pry apart both. I will have a look at this.
For this case we took lap averages (automatically done by aerosensor using the wireless lap trigger). I am then averaging the 8 laps to get an overall run average. At the moment we keep it pretty simple, but as you say there is a lot you can do to improve. For the bootstrapping, I guess this is similar to the use of overlapping "windows" used in PIV? A little bit like a rolling average but more discrete.

One of the things we struggle with in all of this is aligning the data sources. I've found different speed sensors have different time lags between when the magnet event happened and when the data is received by the unit. I did an experiment using a door latch electromagnet hooked into a Nordic chip so we could accurately trigger the magnet event and record when the data was received over ANT. Looking at the minimum time gap over many events we can measure the time lag.
Power meters will have something similar, but I haven't even figured out how to measure yet.
Point is though as you reduce the size of your "window" in dynamic (variable speed/power) conditions, you risk artifacts of these unknown time offsets. The longer the average the less significant this source of error.
When I get a bit of clear air I'll do more experimenting on this.

I haven't done the Tom Compton challenge yet - too much going on, but its definitely on the list. I'll come back on here when I have done it.

Thanks for your kind words and input. Really interesting stuff. I'm very happy with where we have got to but plenty more to come from these sorts of second order methods.
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Re: Aero sensors for dummies thread [bgarrood] [ In reply to ]
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bgarrood wrote:
Hey Tom

One of the things we struggle with in all of this is aligning the data sources. I've found different speed sensors have different time lags between when the magnet event happened and when the data is received by the unit. I did an experiment using a door latch electromagnet hooked into a Nordic chip so we could accurately trigger the magnet event and record when the data was received over ANT. Looking at the minimum time gap over many events we can measure the time lag.
Power meters will have something similar, but I haven't even figured out how to measure yet.

Using ANT+ the lag of a PM is variable but between 0.25sec and 1.5sec in the worst case I observed up to date. To get an approximation I mount the bicycle in an old turbo trainer, however the rear wheel is not touching the drum. With a speed sensor on the rear wheel and a sudden power burst on the pedals one gets a reasonable guess.
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Re: Aero sensors for dummies thread [BergHugi] [ In reply to ]
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Thats a nice idea. I'm going to get back into this shortly and try that.

1.5 seconds is entirely believable but a bit scary if that is really the case.
I have seen a consistent effect where CdA is high at the start of a run (auto lap start using a speed threshold) where acceleration is still quite high - in these cases it would be entirely explained by the lag.

I also plan to compare different power meters against my Wahoo turbo. Does anyone have experience of that? objective is to compare, say, a powertap hub, vs crank vs pedals vs turbo power by simultaneously logging all three. Again, I will report back..

As John said a while back, this forum has been a great source of ideas so thank you all!
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Re: Aero sensors for dummies thread [BergHugi] [ In reply to ]
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BergHugi wrote:
bgarrood wrote:
Hey Tom

One of the things we struggle with in all of this is aligning the data sources. I've found different speed sensors have different time lags between when the magnet event happened and when the data is received by the unit. I did an experiment using a door latch electromagnet hooked into a Nordic chip so we could accurately trigger the magnet event and record when the data was received over ANT. Looking at the minimum time gap over many events we can measure the time lag.
Power meters will have something similar, but I haven't even figured out how to measure yet.


Using ANT+ the lag of a PM is variable but between 0.25sec and 1.5sec in the worst case I observed up to date. To get an approximation I mount the bicycle in an old turbo trainer, however the rear wheel is not touching the drum. With a speed sensor on the rear wheel and a sudden power burst on the pedals one gets a reasonable guess.

Any you can do the something similar on the road by looking at acceleration through the accelerometer. Many (almost all) signals can be cross checked this way.

A speed sensor also send the time at which the measurement occurred, so you can 'sync clocks'
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Re: Aero sensors for dummies thread [bgarrood] [ In reply to ]
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bgarrood wrote:
Thats a nice idea. I'm going to get back into this shortly and try that.

1.5 seconds is entirely believable but a bit scary if that is really the case.
I have seen a consistent effect where CdA is high at the start of a run (auto lap start using a speed threshold) where acceleration is still quite high - in these cases it would be entirely explained by the lag.

I also plan to compare different power meters against my Wahoo turbo. Does anyone have experience of that? objective is to compare, say, a powertap hub, vs crank vs pedals vs turbo power by simultaneously logging all three. Again, I will report back..

As John said a while back, this forum has been a great source of ideas so thank you all!

All my rides are with at least 2 power meters. I have a P2Max, Faveros and PT hub. I log one in the Garmin, and one in the onboars torage, both getting merged. There are many reasons but a biggie is to detect if/when a power meter 'auto calibrates' and all of a sudden I start getting different values of CDA.

My P2Max does tell me when I auto-calibrate.

May I suggest you don't use your Wahoo turbo as the reference :-)
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Re: Aero sensors for dummies thread [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:
BergHugi wrote:
bgarrood wrote:
Hey Tom

One of the things we struggle with in all of this is aligning the data sources. I've found different speed sensors have different time lags between when the magnet event happened and when the data is received by the unit. I did an experiment using a door latch electromagnet hooked into a Nordic chip so we could accurately trigger the magnet event and record when the data was received over ANT. Looking at the minimum time gap over many events we can measure the time lag.
Power meters will have something similar, but I haven't even figured out how to measure yet.


Using ANT+ the lag of a PM is variable but between 0.25sec and 1.5sec in the worst case I observed up to date. To get an approximation I mount the bicycle in an old turbo trainer, however the rear wheel is not touching the drum. With a speed sensor on the rear wheel and a sudden power burst on the pedals one gets a reasonable guess.


Any you can do the something similar on the road by looking at acceleration through the accelerometer. Many (almost all) signals can be cross checked this way.

A speed sensor also send the time at which the measurement occurred, so you can 'sync clocks'

Along these lines....I exported to excel a ride and got curious and plotted the tilt sensors from my Notio. I did some basic fit lines and could eventually from messing around see the profile of the 1mi of road I used. Just interesting.
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