Not necessarily answering your question, and you may have addressed this anyway. But: are you sure your fit isn't part of the problem (re: back, neck, shoulder pain)?

Time in saddle is a big factor as no matter your flexibility or strength, then holding the same position for 5 hours is going to need some adaption.

However, despite having a historically dodgy lower back from being very young, and being sensitive to small differences in my work desk setup, 2-3 pilates sessions a week means come races then my back isn't a problem now. For context when I was in my mid 30s, I did IMNZ and was in absolute agony with my back, literally doing 30s on tri bars, 30s on hoods and 30s sitting bolt upright holding the pads. It was that bad. And that was because I'd not done enough (any) time in TT position in training as I was doing it all in the middle of winter on my road bike or trainer, and pre pilates.

In case you think pilates is all ladies that lunch, just be aware Joseph Pilates was a bare knuckle boxer and the pilates ring was originally the metal ring from beer barrels. I'd suggest you try to find a 'classic' pilates studio to start. Give it 2 months, just that.

Sounds like you don't have a proper fit.

well, bike fitter is reasonably experienced, working daily with lots of amateur and also fitting pro men and women teams.
So I did the first bike fit earlier this year when I purchased my first TT bike (Felt IA), and he set up a pretty aero position saying we should see if its sustainable or not. So I think I just need to adapt, first training sessions and first race 70.3 were ok but I noticed my back neck and shoulders were really tight.
So, before accepting a more conservative position, I'd like to understand if I can work on my specific flexibility / strength.
BTW I assume almost none of you is doing this type of work considering the answers.

Neck exercises laying down on back staring up - yes’s, no’s, ear to shoulder:

Yes’s - nod your head slowly sometimes going full range of motion up and lightly tough the back of your head to the floor.

No’s - shake your head slowly back and forth.

Ear to shoulder - shrug each shoulder with ear coming towards shoulder on both sides.

Flutter kicks and ab work recommended as well for total spine strength.

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https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney

I don't know why it bugs me, but I like to keep the terminology for a TT bike and Tri bike setup separate. You can suffer for a 10mi TT with some pretty aggressive TT bike setups. There is no amount of true "comfort" in holding a pursuit racer style position for 20min. But, you just do it because it is only 20min. Then you can cross the line and barf and stretch to your heart's content.

For triathlon with the 70.3 and longer "tri bike fitting", that's just a different thing altogether. Not only does it have to be comfortable for that long of a time, but how you reach your drink/nutrition is a factor. That just isn't the case in TT. If there isn't a slow corner or really slow hill, you are hunkered and not reaching to drink/eat. Sure, a good longer distance tri position CAN be a very good TT position also. Or a TT position a good tri position. Just depends. But in general, there's reasons they might be a different fit for the same person.

Now, on to the topic at hand...........you say you've done a 70.3 already. But this fit feels tight. Did you ask for a TT fit or a tri fit? Did you specify how long you have to hold the position to the fitter?

I have to assume that if you already did a 70.3 on this setup (and the corresponding training to do a 70.3) you had enough volume in aero to adapt if you were going to adapt to the bike fit.

So at this point, I'm going to say it isn't a good bike fit for a 70.3. It might be a good sprint distance or time trial distance bike fit with shorter time spent in relative discomfort.


FWIW...a qualifier.......I totally disagree with the school of thought that the bike fit for all durations and intensities has to be 100% "comfortable". Some believe that, and that's ok. I just don't treat the bike like a couch. No, it should never "hurt". Agreed there. Under an hour I'd say grin and bear it if it isn't actual "pain" and it's fast as a scalded dog.

So given I think that way, for me to say that you likely don't have the right fit........means I really think you need to reanalyze it for 70.3 distance racing given what you describe.

no strength or flexibility needed

:)

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

yes sorry, I meant "tri" bike fit.
Yes I asked for a tri fit and specified I was going to compete in 70.3s. As far as the race is concerned I trained few times on the tri bike and probably should have adapted better to the position, as during summer I also rode the road bike and the race in October was not planned till last 3 weeks, just had the training volume in and decided to race.
Anyway got your point, I will speak to the fitter and ask for a more comfortable position as long as I get again shoulder, back and neck soreness.

? I do loads of this, as per my answer. Not sure why you took that view. As it happens I also do further exercises, but those are additional and complementary to the pilates and physio mandated.

Anyway, hope you get it sorted.

this is correct.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

He can have a fit that eliminates the pain, but since fit is based on a combination of body dimensions, strength and flexibility, it seems to me there that improving strength and flexibility is often useful.

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http://www.jt10000.com/

It has been my experience that strength and flexibility are not factors that affect bike fit sustainability for generally fit people.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

Replying to Eric.
Obviously you're being funny saying no flexibility or strength needed. I'd suggest minimal or normal flexibility and strength needed.
I have back issues and due to a recent crash shoulder and elbow pain. Riding my regular bikes makes my hand numb so for training my tt bike is my choice. Weirdly turtling relieves the shoulder pain and I'm able to hold that position for 20 min plus.
My thinking starts with your saddle. I think if you can't rotate your pelvis on your saddle it's difficult to relax into position. Some people can use a regular saddle and be OK. (vasil kiryenka comes to mind).
I do flexibility and strength work which may help with my tt position but that's not the reason why I do them.

Like I said, no flexibility or strength needed. I think you agree with me operationally.

You're right, it's all about the saddle. The same saddle can feel differently depending on the fit, and every saddle required knowledge and coaching as to how to sit on it.

A good fit, or a fit from me at least, leverages simple gravity to cause the saddle and cockpit to work together, and to work *for you*, resulting in you being more comfortable, more powerful, and more aerodynamic. IOW, it's all about the saddle. And gravity.

So, I'll amend... as long as you're riding in Earth gravity, and not on the moon, no strength or flexibility needed.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I’m 63, have a body I subject to 1,000+ hours/year of endurance training, and am not immune to the physical challenges those present. I’ve had surgeries on my knee (which needs to be replaced), my shoulder (grade 3 separation), elbow, and have had many injections in my knee and back to deal with pain and inflammation....

I’ve done 15 IM races, about 20other long course races (mostly halfs), and 160 triathlons through the years. This is my 20th season of being a “serious” triathlete...

So, with that as context, after my return from some debilitating back problems in 2015, I did IMAZ in 2017, and could not hold an aero position for a significant amount of the ride. I rode a very disappointing 6:08 as a result.

Last year, I returned to the same course but with a number of changes:

1. I committed to exclusively riding my TT bike (BMC TM01). In past years, I mostly rode my road bike (with aero bars and a forward position). This made a big difference as by the time of the race, I was pretty used to and comfortable riding 100+ miles in a ride or 300+ miles in a week all aero on my race machine. (This probably seems like an obvious thing to many, but through the years, I had solid success with this approach, even riding 5:06...a while ago!)

2. I committed to what my son and I called the “Bike Monster” strategy...lots and lots of miles...in fact I did over 12,000 that year....I’m pretty sure this helped me adapt to the challenges of being aero for that long...

3. I went to a new split seat saddle (Dash makes it) and played around with it to the point where my hips naturally rode forward, and I was more comfy with a flatter back.

4. I experimented a lot in the 1st quarter with my position by riding aero for 1-2 hours on my Kickr/Zwift setup and seeing how comfy I was and and how much power at what HR I was able to achieve. This led to a number of significant changes. I raised my arm pads by about 40mm, moved my bars further forward by a bit, moved my seat forward and up a bit, shortened my cranks (now at 165mm this winter, but just down to 172.5mm last year). My current position feels very comfortable and way more natural now than my road bike does. The saddle change was crucial...

5. I practiced and trialed a lot what I wanted to do in the race, which was ride 20mph @ 165-170 watts (this is a pretty easy effort for me as my ftp was about 240 watts, so about 70% of ftp). A month before the race I went sub 5 hours for a century (with traffic, training wheels, no aero helmet, etc, and a cold rollout). I knew I could do it at AZ, because I had done it in training.

6. I also did 2-3 30 minute core sessions a week...

I was able to ride a 5:34 (20.2 mph) and beat my run target (and KQ’ed).

I now have a Wahoo Kickr bike and have exactly matched my TT coordinates so now can easily mix indoor and outdoor....

Not sure how much of which was the driver of my improvement, but I’m a significantly better TT rider today than I was 3 years ago....

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

No, he's not being funny. The point is that improving strength and flexibility aren't prescriptions to improve comfort on a tri bike beyond general adaptation. The solutions to improving comfort on a tri bike are almost exclusively related to position. Sometimes that means changing the equipment if the equipment prohibits a desired position. As you noted, the saddle can limit position. The most common limiter I saw was bars with insufficient armpad width, extension length, or angular adjustment.

The example you gave isn't limits of strength and flexibility, but rather the existence of an injury. The diminished strength and flexibility are symptoms of the problem, not the source.

Lots of bike fitters will encourage their clients to improve their strength and flexibility because it sounds like wisdom and helps manage rider expectations. But it's mostly nonsense.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

I do agree with you (Eric).
For a tri bike I feel we should relax into the position. For tt my posture is a little more tucked but my fit is the same.
Time on a suitable saddle seems to be the key.

Everyone wants to feel special. I get that. That’s the source of things like “strength and flexibility” or “custom bike”, etc. It’s hard to hear from your fitter that you’re the same kind of different as everyone else.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

1) Unless your fitter does a lot of aero/wind tunnel testing with athletes, he probably doesn't have a great eye for what is actually aero. Low pads are definitely not the answer!

2) Focus on relaxing all areas of the body where tension is unnecessary. It could just be bad habits. And if that is impossible while still holding the position, explore changes that might bring greater comfort. If your bars don't allow for this, then you need some new equipment that does. If you want to optimize, then closing the loop with aero testing is necessary.

3) Are you an experienced cyclist but new to TT bikes?

4) We need to see what this position looks like!

1.
He does use windtunnel, not with me, but he does. But I got your point

2.
Now can only practice on the trainer...outside stability on tri bike is much harder for me snd maybe bring this tension.

3.
I began tri in 2018. Started cycling that year, I used to be a runner.

4.
https://www.instagram.com/...?igshid=6t0e0lt1sukq

Thanks

Well, there you go...that's why your shoulders and neck hurt. Nothing to do with strength or flexibility...it's just not a good fit.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

thanks for your experienced (visited webstie) opinion, would you mind giving me some more details as to what could I do to improve my comfort so that I could discuss it also with the fitter?

best regards

I'm sure the general consensus will be that you need to make a 30 second video on an indoor trainer, post it in YouTube and let the Slowtwitch community rake you over the coals! But before you even do that, do a search for the word "critique". You will get a LOT of threads asking the same questions as you are.

Spend an hour or two reading those threads and you will develop your own understanding of how you should look on the bike. When you post your own video the advice you get will make much more sense to you.

Also:
Keep the camera at waist height and use landscape mode.
Fill the frame but get all of you and the bike in the picture.
Pay attention to lighting.
Remove clutter behind you and anything that might be an embarrassment!

I hung around here for a couple of years before I asked for a critique - afraid of getting roasted I guess. It went pretty well when I finally got around to it.

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"They know f_ck-all over at Slowtwitch"
- Lionel Sanders

Riding in Puglia is beautiful.